Any President would've ordered the OBL Mission

Here's the problem with that sort of armchair, video-game analysis. At least one of those we can say is wrong. Bush II DID have a chance to get OBL. Just months after 9/11, in December of 2001, at Tora Bora. Bush decided rather than have our own people go after him, to let the Afghans do it. Poorly trained, recent allies/protectors of OBL. The exact same reasons that Obama decided to have the SEALS go in, with no warning to our putative allies.

You could certainly argue that Bus was trying to not antagonize the Afghans, as we ended up doing to the Pakistani's, or that Obama learned from Tora Bora not to trust our "allies" in situations like this, but you certainly cannot use other military decisions to say whether a given sitting POTUS would have acted. Especially when part of the intel (from the CIA) was that there was only a 30-40% chance that OBL was, in fact, in the compound. It was a risk, it paid off, but had it not, you might well have used similar examples to show how those presidents made better decisions overall.

So Obama says 50/50 in your article, Weiner who made the Tora Bora link was a Clinton staffer.

I need better references to prove your point about that battle because what I recall of Tora Bora when I was in the Corps is that this was a case of trying to ennoble the Northern Alliance so that they could take credit and that way we could raise them up. You recall as well that they were the ones who we had armed against the Soviets and who effectively defeated the soviets.

You can say Bush didn't order enough resources into the Bin Laden Tora Bora Op, but you can't say he didn't send anyone. Obama sent fewer into Abbottabad than we sent into Tora Bora (2000 according to Wikipedia).

I also remember that in all of 2000 and 2001, we were taping equipment together, our Battalion was missing a company, and we never had enough ammo to train because of Clinton era cuts. We didn't have the means to wage the entire Afghan campaign without the Northern Alliance.

Obama has the best fighting Force we've ever had, more on the ground intel than we've ever had, and the benefit of intel gained from water boarding he didn't have to order. None of which did we have in December 2001.

My above list is my looking at each president and saying "what 50/50 scenario did this guy face where he had to trust the operators to make the mission a success and dare greatly." I stand by the ones I said would have done it. So you dispute 1. The fact that I named 31 of 44 and you only question 1 Still means it was a slam dunk.

Edited by GomesBolt 2012-09-13 6:48 AM

Exactly, I was surprised as I went through and found some of the more daring decisions. Removing outcome from the judgement, I'd rank the top 5:

1-Truman

2-Carter

3- FDR (Doolittle)

4-JFK (Bay of Pigs)

5- Thomas Jefferson (Barbary Pirates)

All Liberals. Interesting huh?

What's your top 5?

Edited for formatting.

Edited by GomesBolt 2012-09-13 7:16 AM

No, it means that I had to leave early to get to a 7 AM meeting, and did not have time to fully research and challenge all your assertions. And that I went with the example most readily at hand.

Ok understood, I look forward to your input and a response.

I too need to get back to driving/moving in today.

have a good day!

I don't even get the question.

It is a ridiculous argument. Obama has many detractors that say he is soft and does not care about "protecting America". Him being a non US citizen Muslim sypathizer and all. He escalated the war in Afghanistan, and he ordered the mission to get OBL. Discussion over.

In this political climate... Obama had the most to loose of all Presidents. He would have been crusified by the Right for his failure. Our relationship with Pakistan is shaky at best, and all they want is ammo... this would have been good ammo. But since we got OBL and he was indeed in Pakistan for the last 5 years, they had nothing. So for Obama, with what he had on his plate, it was a tough call... but he made the call.

And you can make up a hypothetical list all you want, but I can not image any sitting President that ever ran for the office that would have not acted on actinable intel on OBL, the mastermind of the Terrorist attack on American soil that killed over 3000 people and cost billions. I can't imagine in a million years a President not ordering the mission.

I'm not sure how many of your examples are relevant.  Most of what you list are decisions made against countries that were either our enemies at the time, or some little insignificant country no one gives two shites about.  Pakistan is both an "ally", and one of eight countries with nuclear weapons.  That would be like ordering a midnight raid in France or China. 

Ballsiest move Obama ever made.  You have to keep in mind that our relationship with Pakistan is one of the major reasons why Pakistan and India haven't wiped south Asian off the map.

Never has a more liberal use of quotes been warranted.  Officials in the Pakistani government likely knew OBL was there. Pakistan is not our ally.

Let's not forget ManBearPig, Al Gore is ruthless

This is definitely an odd thread. Armchair quarterbacking at it's finest.

I'd take Clinton off your list.  He withdrew our troops from Somalia at the first sign of adversity ("Black Hawk Down").  No way he takes the risk of the Bin Laden mission going badly and end up with some American fatalities.

ETA:  IMHO, this withdrawal of troops from Somalia by Clinton is one of the biggest pansy a$$ moves any president has made.

He is thumping his chest because he has been so criticized for his soft appologetic foriegn policy. Plus he is a Muslim and not even a US citizen and wants to destroy America. And the sad thing about that is that is not the fringe right talking... that is a lot of mainstream Right that believes most of that.

So he get's to thump his chest that indeed he will shoot a Muslim brother and he is tough on terrorists. The call itself was not gutsy in any way shape or form... It was gutsy for Obama because politically a lot was riding on it for him. Pathetic if you ask me, but that is what we get from our partisan politics these days.

You answered yourself in an earlier post.  Ask Jimmy Carter.  One of the reasons (albiet of many) he lost the election was he couldnt get the hostiges out - and Reagan said he would, and did.

I honestly believe Carter wouldve had a better chance of getting re-elected had that mission been a success.  Just like I feel that if the OBL raid had been a failure, the GOP would be all over the Obama and Carter comparisons and Obama would take the 'blame'.  I also feel that if McCain were in office (no matter what he says) he would take credit for making the call as well - and it would be deserved.    

This is the part of partisan politics I just cant stand.  Obama did the right thing and deserves credit for making the call - as any president should.  It doesnt make Obama special.  It just means he did his job and even fulfilled a campaign promise by going into Pakistan if they knew he was there.  As far as chest thumping goes, its not like he landed on an aircraft carrier with 'mission accomplished' in the background.