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2008-11-03 12:19 PM

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: For Catholic BTrs on election day

I wanted to share this statement by Cardinal Rigali and Bishop Murphy regarding the election and forming our consciences as faithful citizens.

Hopefully, you've already read it. If not, I urge you to do so.

Thanks! 

Here's the full statement.

Here's the beginning of it.

In Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship (2007), the Catholic bishops of the United States urged Catholic voters to form their consciences in accord with the Church’s moral teaching.  We emphasized that: “Both opposing evil and doing good are essential obligations” (No. 24).  Unfortunately, there seem to be efforts and voter education materials designed to persuade Catholics that they need only choose one approach: either opposing evil or doing good.  This is not an authentically Catholic approach.

 

Some argue that we should not focus on policies that provide help for pregnant women, but just focus on the essential task of establishing legal protections for children in the womb.  Others argue that providing life-affirming support for pregnant women should be our only focus and this should take the place of efforts to establish legal protections for unborn children.  We want to be clear that neither argument is consistent with Catholic teaching.  Our faith requires us to oppose abortion on demand and to provide help to mothers facing challenging pregnancies. read more...

 



Edited by dontracy 2008-11-03 12:20 PM


2008-11-03 1:13 PM
in reply to: #1783694

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Champion
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
2008-11-03 1:18 PM
in reply to: #1783694

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Champion
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Richmond, VA
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
I've never understood, but why can't you be "Pro Choice" and "Anti-abortion"?
2008-11-03 1:23 PM
in reply to: #1783694

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Champion
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day

Don,

Hypothetical.

First, I know the church does not endorse a candidate.  But.

If the Abortion issue were the only stance a candidate held in common with the Catholic Church, would it still recommend voting for that candidate, or the other?

I ask, because being a single issue voter does the voter, candidate, and frankly the entire election system, ergo the US, a disservice, don't you think?  Just curious.

2008-11-03 1:32 PM
in reply to: #1783925

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Mountain View, CA
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
condorman - 2008-11-03 11:18 AM

I've never understood, but why can't you be "Pro Choice" and "Anti-abortion"?

The existing terminology doesn't lend itself well to complexity and shades of grey. I think you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion (most pro-choice people I know are), and even pro-choice and pro-life. I don't think the conversation is well served by such simplistic labels.
2008-11-03 1:38 PM
in reply to: #1783943

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Mountain View, CA
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 11:23 AM

Don,

Hypothetical.

First, I know the church does not endorse a candidate.  But.

If the Abortion issue were the only stance a candidate held in common with the Catholic Church, would it still recommend voting for that candidate, or the other?

I ask, because being a single issue voter does the voter, candidate, and frankly the entire election system, ergo the US, a disservice, don't you think?  Just curious.


I'm not trying to answer for Don, just guessing at a possible answer. IF you subscribe to the belief that abortion is murder, you probably believe that every year that abortion remains legal, hundreds or thousands of people are murdered. Given that, wouldn't the prevention of homicide on such a massive scale trump most or even all other issues under consideration? In other words, perhaps it's not the only issue, but by far the most important issue.

I don't see things that way, so perhaps I've got the thinking wrong... just speculating.


2008-11-03 1:44 PM
in reply to: #1783943

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Pro
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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 1:23 PM

Don,

Hypothetical.

First, I know the church does not endorse a candidate.  But.

If the Abortion issue were the only stance a candidate held in common with the Catholic Church, would it still recommend voting for that candidate, or the other?

I ask, because being a single issue voter does the voter, candidate, and frankly the entire election system, ergo the US, a disservice, don't you think?  Just curious.



I'm not a Catholic and I don't speak on behalf of the Catholic church. But, I am a voter and I am what some people might call a single-issue voter. This is a misrepresentation, in my opinion. The way it works is this: A particular candidate's opinion on this issue doesn't earn my vote for him, but rather the candidate who does not align with me on this issue loses my vote; he is disqualified from receiving my vote. It's not doing a disservice to anybody because I think at some level we're all "single-issue voters" by definition. I don't know you from Adam, but I'd be willing to guess that you would vote against somebody who was in favor of re-instituting the slave trade, just as one of many examples we could go through. The opposing candidate wouldn't earn your vote because of his opposition to the slave trade, but rather the candidate in question would lose your vote because of his views on slavery.

I don't [and I'm sure many others don't either] vote FOR a candidate because he is pro-life, but I will vote AGAINST a candidate because he is pro-abortion. The conundrum in this election is that both candidates seem to be okay with abortion on some level, just that one is much more strict on its application than the other.
2008-11-03 1:57 PM
in reply to: #1783898

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Expert
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B'ham
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 11:13 AM

Some more reading material.

 

http://www.catholicsinalliance.org/

Sorry dude, that site is not Catholic, does not align with the teachings of the Catholic Church and is not endorsed by the Catholic Church. 

2008-11-03 1:59 PM
in reply to: #1783694

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Elite
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In The Peleton
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
I have a question.  How does the death penalty factor into the Catholic faith?  I consider that murder, does the Catholich church see it that way?
2008-11-03 2:00 PM
in reply to: #1784013

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Champion
15211
500050005000100100
Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
Bripod - 2008-11-03 1:44 PM
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 1:23 PM

Don,

Hypothetical.

First, I know the church does not endorse a candidate.  But.

If the Abortion issue were the only stance a candidate held in common with the Catholic Church, would it still recommend voting for that candidate, or the other?

I ask, because being a single issue voter does the voter, candidate, and frankly the entire election system, ergo the US, a disservice, don't you think?  Just curious.

I'm not a Catholic and I don't speak on behalf of the Catholic church. But, I am a voter and I am what some people might call a single-issue voter. This is a misrepresentation, in my opinion. The way it works is this: A particular candidate's opinion on this issue doesn't earn my vote for him, but rather the candidate who does not align with me on this issue loses my vote; he is disqualified from receiving my vote. It's not doing a disservice to anybody because I think at some level we're all "single-issue voters" by definition. I don't know you from Adam, but I'd be willing to guess that you would vote against somebody who was in favor of re-instituting the slave trade, just as one of many examples we could go through. The opposing candidate wouldn't earn your vote because of his opposition to the slave trade, but rather the candidate in question would lose your vote because of his views on slavery. I don't [and I'm sure many others don't either] vote FOR a candidate because he is pro-life, but I will vote AGAINST a candidate because he is pro-abortion. The conundrum in this election is that both candidates seem to be okay with abortion on some level, just that one is much more strict on its application than the other.

So you would vote against a candidate even if you were in lock step with every other stance on their platform? 

BTW, I'm not trying to instigate, just trying to understand.

2008-11-03 2:01 PM
in reply to: #1784056

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Champion
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
cadmus - 2008-11-03 1:57 PM
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 11:13 AM

Some more reading material.

 

http://www.catholicsinalliance.org/

Sorry dude, that site is not Catholic, does not align with the teachings of the Catholic Church and is not endorsed by the Catholic Church. 

But it is another view point.  And that is what I was trying to get to.  Should have probably stated that.  Sorry about that.



2008-11-03 2:02 PM
in reply to: #1784059

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Champion
15211
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day

PeterAK - 2008-11-03 1:59 PM I have a question.  How does the death penalty factor into the Catholic faith?  I consider that murder, does the Catholich church see it that way?

I believe it does, yes.

2008-11-03 2:06 PM
in reply to: #1783977

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Champion
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Richmond, VA
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day

puellasolis - 2008-11-03 2:32 PM
condorman - 2008-11-03 11:18 AM I've never understood, but why can't you be "Pro Choice" and "Anti-abortion"?
The existing terminology doesn't lend itself well to complexity and shades of grey. I think you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion (most pro-choice people I know are), and even pro-choice and pro-life. I don't think the conversation is well served by such simplistic labels.

 

excellent point - similar to the subtlety of labeling someone who is "pro-choice" as being "pro abortion" or "pro baby killer."

2008-11-03 2:07 PM
in reply to: #1784063

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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:00 PM

So you would vote against a candidate even if you were in lock step with every other stance on their platform? 

BTW, I'm not trying to instigate, just trying to understand.


Even though that's a highly unlikely situation, you bet I would. If a candidate is not going to protect the rights of the most helpless of individuals then I don't care how nice he plans to be to everyone else.
2008-11-03 2:11 PM
in reply to: #1784088

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Champion
15211
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
Bripod - 2008-11-03 2:07 PM
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:00 PM

 

So you would vote against a candidate even if you were in lock step with every other stance on their platform? 

BTW, I'm not trying to instigate, just trying to understand.

Even though that's a highly unlikely situation, you bet I would. If a candidate is not going to protect the rights of the most helpless of individuals then I don't care how nice he plans to be to everyone else.

Fair enough.  Thank you for your honesty. 

I realize this is a very sensitive, hot button issue.  I'm just attempting to get a better understanding.  Thanks again.

2008-11-03 2:14 PM
in reply to: #1784101

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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:11 PM

Bripod - 2008-11-03 2:07 PM
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:00 PM

 

So you would vote against a candidate even if you were in lock step with every other stance on their platform? 

BTW, I'm not trying to instigate, just trying to understand.

Even though that's a highly unlikely situation, you bet I would. If a candidate is not going to protect the rights of the most helpless of individuals then I don't care how nice he plans to be to everyone else.

Fair enough.  Thank you for your honesty. 

I realize this is a very sensitive, hot button issue.  I'm just attempting to get a better understanding.  Thanks again.


You're welcome. I never thought you were trying to cause trouble


2008-11-03 2:16 PM
in reply to: #1784116

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Champion
15211
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
Bripod - 2008-11-03 2:14 PM
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:11 PM
Bripod - 2008-11-03 2:07 PM
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:00 PM

 

So you would vote against a candidate even if you were in lock step with every other stance on their platform? 

BTW, I'm not trying to instigate, just trying to understand.

Even though that's a highly unlikely situation, you bet I would. If a candidate is not going to protect the rights of the most helpless of individuals then I don't care how nice he plans to be to everyone else.

Fair enough.  Thank you for your honesty. 

I realize this is a very sensitive, hot button issue.  I'm just attempting to get a better understanding.  Thanks again.

You're welcome. I never thought you were trying to cause trouble

Even thought I'm a Sooner fan? 

2008-11-03 2:20 PM
in reply to: #1784126

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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:16 PM

Even thought I'm a Sooner fan? 


Aw, you had to go there, didn't you? Thanks for the reminder... jerk!
2008-11-03 2:21 PM
in reply to: #1784140

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Champion
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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
Bripod - 2008-11-03 2:20 PM
crowny2 - 2008-11-03 2:16 PM

 

Even thought I'm a Sooner fan? 

Aw, you had to go there, didn't you? Thanks for the reminder... jerk!

SNERK!!!!

2008-11-03 2:23 PM
in reply to: #1783977

Elite
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Denver, Colorado
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
puellasolis - 2008-11-03 1:32 PM

condorman - 2008-11-03 11:18 AM

I've never understood, but why can't you be "Pro Choice" and "Anti-abortion"?

The existing terminology doesn't lend itself well to complexity and shades of grey. I think you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion (most pro-choice people I know are), and even pro-choice and pro-life. I don't think the conversation is well served by such simplistic labels.


Filtering this through my libertarian point of view, I am personally against abortion except in limited circumstances but I am also very much against expanding the power of government to have even more control over our lives. Given two choices, the choice which limits the power of government is the better choice. I am not sure when life begins. Neither do the politicians nor a majority of idiots citizens. It is a decision best left to the individual.
2008-11-03 2:33 PM
in reply to: #1783694

Master
2009
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Charlotte, NC
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
I think for the Catholic Church to continue to pigeon hole it's members based on one issue is going to hurt the church in the long run.  I am a cradle to grave Catholic and I do not vote, or not vote, for someone based on one single issue.  If we look at the stance of morality it goes much further than the pregnant woman and abortion.  What about the morality of the abysmal shape our public schools are in?  (Which I aatribute largely to NCLB.)  What about the morality of providing a social support system for people who need it?  I think for the Vatican to continue saying the only moral way to vote is pro-life is going to conitnue the exodus of people from the church.


2008-11-03 2:40 PM
in reply to: #1783925

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Master
2014
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Ohio
Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day

condorman - 2008-11-03 2:18 PM I've never understood, but why can't you be "Pro Choice" and "Anti-abortion"?

I think you can. Frankly this sums up my stance on the issue. IMO the ardently pro-life crowd is doing a great job of  equating being pro choice to "pro-abortion." I think you'd be hard pressed to find a person who is truly pro-abortion, that is, someone who thinks that all fetuses should be aborted.

In response to Don's post, if this is your top issue and what you choose to base your vote on then by all means vote for that candidate who aligns with this view, I can certianly respect that.

 

2008-11-03 2:44 PM
in reply to: #1783694

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Arch-Bishop of BT
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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day

Going back to previous conversations that Don and I have had over abortion... the Roman Catholic Church is actually, I believe, the most consistent voice out there for the sanctity of life... from the moment of conception onward.  It does seek to maintain the "seamless garment" mentality, i.e. when it supports the sanctity of life, it does on all fronts.

The RC Church opposes the death penalty, as well as other manifestations of what JPII called the "culture of death" that pervades our world.  However, as Don has reminded me often, abortion is considered "intrinsically evil" because it preys on the one who is completely innocent.  Therefore abortion must be opposed on all fronts.  As is often quoted (and I forget who said it) a society will be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable... or something to that effect.

 

2008-11-03 2:46 PM
in reply to: #1784184

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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
David tri's - 2008-11-03 2:40 PM

condorman - 2008-11-03 2:18 PM I've never understood, but why can't you be "Pro Choice" and "Anti-abortion"?

I think you can. Frankly this sums up my stance on the issue. IMO the ardently pro-life crowd is doing a great job of  equating being pro choice to "pro-abortion." I think you'd be hard pressed to find a person who is truly pro-abortion, that is, someone who thinks that all fetuses should be aborted.

In response to Don's post, if this is your top issue and what you choose to base your vote on then by all means vote for that candidate who aligns with this view, I can certianly respect that.

 


I don't define "pro-abortion" as someone who thinks that all babies should be aborted. In fact, this is the first time I've ever heard it explained that way. Pro is of course a Latin word meaning "for". I consider "pro-abortion" as the stance that says abortion should be legal. Even Senator Obama has defined people whose opinions differ with his as being "against abortion". Wouldn't pro-abortion be an appropriate application, then?
2008-11-03 2:50 PM
in reply to: #1784199

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Master
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Subject: RE: For Catholic BTrs on election day
akustix - 2008-11-03 3:44 PM

Going back to previous conversations that Don and I have had over abortion... the Roman Catholic Church is actually, I believe, the most consistent voice out there for the sanctity of life... from the moment of conception onward.  It does seek to maintain the "seamless garment" mentality, i.e. when it supports the sanctity of life, it does on all fronts.

Actually, the RC church blieves that birth control (the rhythm method not withstanding) is wrong. So I would argue that the church argues for the sanctity of life even pre conception. Your other points are well taken though, carry on. 

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