Low Carb Triathletes

I use to eat like that when I was doing some amatuer bodybuilding and training.  I have carbs now, but am switching monday to something low carb base.
Gonna follow something along the lines of the Paleo diet.  Lean Meat, Seafood, Vegetables, Fruit.
Carbs before and after workout and avoid processed.
I have been staying away from most processed for a little while now.
Good thread in here on the Paleo Diet if you want to read up more on it.

Well, I think what you're describing isn't necessarily a "low carb" diet. It's a diet that leaves out highly processed and refined carbohydrates. We NEED carbs to function, especially in endurance sports, but IMO, not all carbs are created equal.... So, yes, I've cut out the vast majority of processed carbs from my diet. I can't eat wheat flour anyway, so no white bread or pasta was easy.... Most of my carbs now come from fruit and veggies, along with whole grains, like brown rice, etc. Seems to be working pretty well for me so far. My diet is still 50% - 60% carbs, but my carbs come from fruit, veggies, and whole grains - NOT bread, pasta and cookies.

do you train and race long distance endurnace events?

I am relatively new at this but my longest training session right now fall between 2 and 3 hours.  Typically this would be a long bike ride followed up or preceded by a run or swim.  I have yet to do all 3 in one session.  I use NUUN tablets with water on those longer training sessions but no energy bars, gels or other high carb energy sources. 

If you get into consistent endurance training and plan to race a marathon, HIM or IM good luck with a low carb diet. You will short change the fitness gains and recovery from your training...

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Thanks for you input, can you explain why this would short change my fitness gains or recovery?  I have spoken with and met several marathon runners that are also low carb eaters.  I also understand glucoses role in fueling muscle tissue during strenuous activity.  I have considered using some of the gels as a means to fuel energy during a race but have not felt the need as of now.  That does not mean I am closed to the idea, just that I would prefer to avoid them.

Jorge - you sure about that? Low carb seems it would be MORE beneficial in events longer than International or Olympic distances.

1 gram of fat equals 9 calories.

1 gram of carbohydrate equals 4 calories.

Which nutrition would lend to more energy expenditure? That's right the lipid - especially if your body is in ketosis and is using that as it's primary energy source.

Carbohydrates/glycogen would be more beneficial with respect to sprints and events using fast twitch muscle fiber.

If I'm wrong - please give me a couple examples with respect to exactly how triathletes that are diabetics or have diabetes can not be competitive. Please - I would be interested.

It is low carb (99% complex carbs) not NO carb. There is a difference. Also consumtion of limited carbs before and after training and races is typically allowed on most low-carb diets as a secondary source of nutrients.

Batlou - keep up the good work. Like I posted in my reply to Jorge - the low carb/ high protein diets allow for more energy expenditure. Depending on the intensity of your even (Sprint vs. Ironman) you would have to obviously need to play around with your carb intake. It may have to go from 30-40 to 60-80. Whatever. What you are doing is completely safe and there are thousands of people that are diabetic and couldn't even consider attempting to consume carbs the way that most people on these forums think you do.

While the numbers are correct, the body requires some carbohydrate in order use fat as fuel.  Since the carbohydrate is more limited (say 2500Cal of stored carboyhdrate in a 170lb athlete and even if very lean - 6%BF - they would have about 42000Cal of stored energy in fat) an athlete must fuel with carbohydrate for any event that would deplete the 2500Cal of carbohydrate.



Unless you are talking about true sprinting events (those lasting under 2 minutes) the main muscle fiber being utilized is slow twitch.  For these events there is no need to fuel during exercise as it is going to rely primarily on stored energy in the cell or in the liver.  If you are refueling in any triathlon (although for short course there is little need) you want to ingest carbs.

Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2009-07-17 6:56 PM

yes I am sure about that. The problem with your assumption is that energy from fat is not a limiter, as Shane said we have a limited source of glycogen stored (around 2500 in general) and it is been shown over and over depletion is the limiter to endurance peformance hence endurance athletes requiere a higher CHO oriented diet when compared to the avg person. And that's why it is adviced (supported by scientific evidence) endurance athletes in particular those doing distance racing require to supplement carbohydrates through training/racing.

Also you are making the wrong assumption a sprint triathlon for instance is fueled by the anaerobic system, well it isn't, any effort over 2-3 minutes relies on the aerobic system at a greater degree. Finally I don't understand what you mean with: "It is low carb (99% complex carbs) not NO carb. There is a difference". If you are implying that because the biggest source of CHO comes from low glycemic foods as opposed to high glycemic ones while there is a difference in how your body process both, low carb diet means exactly that, a low amount og CHO grams consumption x day in your diet. The OP metioned consuming 35-40 gr of Carbs x day, it doesn't matter whether it comes from complex or simple carbs, it is still a low carb diet and one not typical (or recommendable) for endurance athletes.

In fact some general guidelines for endurance athletes are around 4-7 gr of CHO per Kg of body weight for someone doing moderate training (around 1.5-2 hrs x day) and as high as 7-12 gr for those training intense (4-6hrs x day, i.e. pro cyclists). Yes some athletes will need less and some more but 40 gr x day while training for endurance sports most likley eventually will hinder performance, recovery or both; that is assuming optimal performance is the goal. If training is more a recreational activity then one might be able to get away with it.

I've trained athletes following low carb diets because they wanted to lose weight and invariable they struggled with training to the point they either changed their diet or I stopped coaching them because I didn't want the risk to have an athlete end up hurt during a long ride because he/she was low on fuel just to loss weight. There are safe ways to do this while training, depriving yourself from CHO intake is not one of them. In the end the OP can do whatever he/she wants, I'll be interested to follow his/her goals and progression in particular if HIM or IM are a goal while maintaining this diet.

btw, I coach a diabetic type 1 athlete (plus my dad is also as well) and it just take more work as to what kind of CHO he should consume (low vs high glycemic) and when to consume those. Still, even this person doesn't have that low of a daily CHO intake otherwise his performance/recovery suffers. In fact his diet is not far too different from that of other of my athletes, just a balanced healthy diet with specific things to eat or avoid at specific times. Of course he is also proactive at getting careful physical examination and blood sugar levels screening on a regular baisis to minimize risks.

If you don't believe me here is the official suggestion from the American College of Sports Medicine, The American Diabetic Association and The Dietitians of Canada**:

1. Carbohydrate consumption ranging from 6 to 10 g/kg of body weight/day to maintain blood glucose and replace muscle glycogen during activity. It was stated that a specified amount was dependent on the individual's daily total energy expenditure, sport type, sex, and environmental circumstances.
2. Protein consumption ranging from 1.2 to 1.4 g/kg of body weight/day for endurance-trained athletes to maintain nitrogen balance and 1.6 to 1.7 g/kg of body weight/day for strength-trained athletes to permit the accretion and maintenance of muscle mass. If total energy intake is adequate to maintain body weight, adequate protein can be obtained solely through the diet, without fortification from protein supplements.
3. Fat consumption should range from 20 to 25% of total daily calories, the majority of which should be in unsaturated form. Fat is critically important in athletic diets because it provides energy, fat-soluble vitamins, and essential fatty acids for daily activity and health. Some investigators have quantified this amount from 5 to 10 g/kg of body weight/day, depending on training intensity.^21,22 There is no scientific evidence indicating that high-fat diets enhance athletic performance.
4. Total energy consumption ranging from 37 to 41 kcal/kg of body weight/day for endurance athletes training at moderate intensity to 44 to 50+ kcal/kg of body weight/day for resistance-trained athletes. Strength and power athletes attempting to increase lean mass should consume sufficient amounts of energy to support muscle growth. Numeric estimations of energy intake, the authors noted, are somewhat crude in approximating the energy requirements of individual athletes. However, any athlete must consume enough energy to maintain desirable weight and body composition while training for and competing in specific sports.
5. Though some diets have become popular in weight-loss circles (e.g., Atkins, South Beach, Pritikin, Zone), there is no scientific data that suggests that any of these approaches will improve performance. Some of these strategies, in fact, promote low or very low consumption of carbohydrates, with the stated intent of producing ketoacidosis, the mobilization of ketone bodies for metabolism. Ketoacidosis, however, is a serious metabolic disturbance, and its detrimental effects in people with diabetes have been well established. It is, therefore, recommended that athletes with type 1 diabetes avoid carbohydrate-restricted diets. A “balanced” diet composed of 55–60% of energy from carbohydrate, 12–18% of energy from protein, and 25–30% of energy from fat is recommended for competitive athletes.

**  American College of Sports Medicine: Joint Position Statement: Nutrition and athletic performance. Med Sci Sports Exerc 32:2130 –2145, 2000

I would advice you to do do some research on the subject and look at the pros and cons specifically for endurance athletes. Your metabolic rate and daily calorie needs will greatly depend on your specific training goals and whether thos involve performance as part of it or if it is your goal for training more as a general health kinda thing and weight loss (control). I think most athletes would be wise to pick what sources of CHO they frequently consume for both training and health however a low carb diet for an endurance athlete IMO is not optimal nor advisable because of the risks. I think you are doing a good job at avoiding certain sources of CHO and choosing low glycemic ones however if you plan to go long, increase your fitness as much as possible and shoot for the best performance you are going to have to make a choice. research suggest high glycemic ones CHO are beneficial when training and post-training for instance.

Again, do some research beyong asking friends. Good luck with your goals!

I've lost close to 100 pounds since I started back in '03. I did a variety of low carbs diets including Atkins for first 1.5 years..worked great to lose weight but I wasn't very active at the time. You can't work out and eat that way. Once I got serious about training for tris I had to add carbs back in and it took some time to figure out what to add but I eat lots and lots of fruit, brown rice, wheat berry bread, sweet potatoes and stuff like that. I avoid white stuff sugar, white flour, white potatoes, white rice but do eat that stuff before or after my workouts to fuel them or recover from them as well as take in carbs mostly in the form of various types of sugar.

There is no way I can do a 5+ hour bike or 3+ hour run or even half that much without having proper carb stores in the form of glycogen in my muscles and liver and consume carbs while working out as they are needed to burn fat.

Try adding more carbs and you will be amazed how much better your workouts go. Sure it depends what your goals are and what distance tris you are training for, but even for Olympic races no way could I train well doing 35 grams of carbs a day. Yep 35 grams of carbs I can lose weight fast/faster, but depends what your goals are.

My diet is simple: eat lean meat, fruit, veggies any time.

Eat carbs before, during, and after workouts. Window before is 30-60' depending on length of workout, and afterwards first 15' I try to have good recovery drink in a 4:1 carb:protein balance and then eat a healthy meal afterwards with lots of healthy natural carbs.

The two coaches that have posted know what they are talking about.

I share what I know since I've been doing this for 6 years...losing weight for 4 and training for tris for 5. This year I'm training for my second Ironman and I know absolutely that I need carbs to do 15+ hours of training a week I do some weeks.

I too was on low carb (atkins) a few years ago, lost about 50#, stabilized at 100 grams a day with little exercise to maintain. Then I fell off the wagon. Yes, it IS easy to fall off and start doing all those sugars and processed carbs again, no matter how "into" a diet program you are.

Now, I just eat healthier, using the Abs diet methods. I'm down to 215# (went to 190 on atkins), but I've gained a LOT more muscle just from tri training than I have on atkins. I've also lost several inches off other body measurements.

Just eating healthier is easier and cheaper than atkins, IMHO. instead of avoiding breads whenever possible, I just eat whole wheat bread, for example. Probably the only area where I have trouble is eating more green veggies. I don't like any kind of salad dressing, and you can do only so much with dressing them up with bacon and hard boiled egg pieces.

Your brain needs carbs to function. If you use up your carbs training/racing, your brain does not have enough fuel to function properly.

Edited by tjtryon 2009-07-18 12:15 PM

How can anyone think a diet that is more than 50% fat is healthy regardless of how many carbs you're consuming? I cut all refined grains out of my diet, that means zero cereal, bread, etc and I get my carbs through sprouted grain bread (only one serving per day), fruits, vegetables and supplements during training. I think it would be really difficult to put any decent effort into training or racing without consuming carbs, but I'm no expert.

Regarding you question on overall health...

Since beginning a low carb diet the following changes have taken place.
Sleep Apnea (sp)
Acid Reflux (This was so bad that some nights I would sit up unable to breath from acid that just mad it's way up my esophagus)
Pre-Diabetic (Tested 128 on 12 hour fast test)
Left knee no longer slips
Hypertension (Doc was ready to medicate me)
High Cholesterol
Standing back pain
Depression

One other note, my Doctor was very skeptical as well as she should have been but has since changed her views as well since doing her own research. 

I would argue that you would have seen many/most of those changes by following ANY program that helped you loose weight, and that your total calorie restriction, regardless of what the calories are/were made up of, is responsible for a lot of your weight loss.

Ultimately, you're going to do and believe what you think works best for you, regardless of what a bunch of people on an internet forum who don't know you from Adam tell you. You can find information to support pretty much any point of view regarding diet that you want to believe.

I DO think that if you want to get SERIOUS about endurance sport training, you WILL need more carbs in your diet. I'm not saying a loaf of white bread and a box of pasta each day. More fruits, veggies, whole grains, etc. to keep you fueled. I looked at your training logs, and while your longest training sessions do appear to be around 2 hours as you stated (I only saw one that long, though...), they don't appear to be at a very hard effort (I know, one person's easy is another person's hard, so it can be hard to judge that). Most of your sessions appear to be more in the 30 min - 1 hour range. If you want to go longer, or harder, or both - IN MY OPINION you'll need added carbs in your diet to succeed. Most people do not need to supplement with carbs during training for sessions lasting < about 90 minutes. They can function off of their glycogen stores for that long. With a diet of 10% carbs, I'm not sure what you might have in the way of glycogen stores, though.....

If you're doing tri training just as a way to add some physical activity, and you're okay with keeping your effort where it is now, your diet plan might be okay. Why not try a little experiment? You could take, say, 2 - 4 weeks, and try shifting some of your fat calories to protein & carb calories. Keep your total calorie load constant, just shift them a bit. See how your workouts feel, and how your body responds. If it's not working, no harm/no foul, you can go back to what you were doing.

How we eat is a very personal issue. If you like your low carb diet, then it doesn't really matter what I or anyone else has to say about it. What you eat is entirely up to you.... I just think you should consider that it might not be the best diet plan for someone who wants to participate in endurance sports.

I agree with this 100% and would tell anyone looking to lose weight to pick a plan that works for them and just do it.  I was only stating the health benifits realized to make a point that a diet that is higher in fat than what is considered healthy by the mainstream can be a healthy option  As I move closer to my goal weight I continue up the Atkins Ladder by adding additional fruits and whole grains.  This is part of the process and very rarely discussed part of an Atkins diet. 

I do talk to many that react to my choice to eat on a Atkins plan as crazy.  There first thought or reaction is that I do nothing but eat eggs, bacon and butter by the stick.  While I do eat those things I also moderate them.  Calories still matter and I have to get lots of fiborous vegitables and some fruits.  Then I get the story about their sister or friend who lost 20, 50 or 100 lbs on Atkins only to gain it right back.  Of course they gained it back because they probably starting eating the same crap that made them fat in the first place.  duh

Your also correct in that my workouts are not as long as some others and I am hoping to find a balance as I continue to increase mine.  I am very new at this, hence posting on beginnertriathlete.com, and understand it is a learning process.  For now I can function at a high-level, for my current fitness, for up to about 2 hours without to much distress.  I am researching what sort of carb options are out there that would not impede the livers function in creation of Ketones during longer workouts.  I am thinking that if I take in sugars in the form of dextrose they will be metabolized into glycogen quickly and will not throw me out of ketosis which is an important part of my way of eating.  If I drop out of ketosis I get hungry, tired and generally feel like crap for days. 

Anyway, I am not trying to convert anyone as I said before each person needs to find a plan that works for them and follow it.  Thanks for the input though as this type of discussion in addition to finding like minded people was why I posted here.

BTW...I am still a ways away from doing an Iron Man and may not ever do one.  I am keeping this all in perspective as this time last year I could barely walk up a flight of stairs.  Again...beginnertriathlete.com.  I am training for a triathlon for weight loss and overall health as of now.  Who knows where that will take me but I honestly don't know that I would ever have the time that would be required to train for anything more than a 70.3.    I am suprised it is assumed that if you post here then your ultimate goal must be an iron man or else your not a "serious" triathlete.  Call me a poser I guess.

Not quite sure why you're being so defensive. You're getting feedback on a thread that you started, and much of it is from experienced triathletes with a lot to offer. Nobody's attacking you. People have differing opinions, and give and take is the point of a forum.

Please don't take offense at what I posted.... I wasn't trying to criticize you, your diet, or your current workout routine. And I'm not trying to convert you either - just offering an opinion and perhaps another way to look at things. My point in making an obervation regarding your current training load was just to point out that you MIGHT find you need more carbs than you're currently consuming should you want to INCREASE your training load. I have no idea what your ultimate goals are....

And nobody here would ever think of calling anyone not training for an ironman a "poser". If so, then I'm posing right there along with you! (and so is Jorge, and whole lot of other people on this site, as well).

Best of luck with your training!

Hah, maybe I just need to lighten up.  Sorry, I really do appreciate the feedback and others perspective.  I guess I was just reading to much into things. 

I did ride and run the course for the sprint tri I have coming up and it went pretty good.  I did not go all out or anything as I was just trying to get familiar and help with newbee anxiety.  Also got a chance to check out the pool.  It's only 4'9" at the 'deep' end...so the whole deep water shock will not be a problem.  phew.

Anway, thanks again for all of the feedback and I am likely going to approach this next year a little differently than this.  I am only about 15 lbs away from my initial goal and likely 25-30 from where I should be.  My first goal was set based on my weight when I married.  When you are 100+ overweight it's difficult to pick a target.  Next spring I should be well within my target weight zone so everything will change at that point.  Atkins plan would have me eating more whole grains and fruit and I honestly look forward to that.