Swimming (kicking) question
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() So, today I had a swim coach (college girl that coaches a kid's team) meet me at the pool and observe me swim. She had me start out swimming 200 meters doing my "normal" pace, using my "normal" stroke. When I finished with that, she said the first (and most obvious) thing she noticed was that I don't kick...like, at all. I admitted to having a very weak kick. I had always thought I was doing a simple (if not half-a s s ed) 2-beat kick, but apparently I'm not even doing that. According to this coach, my kick is pretty much non-existent. Ok, I'm cool with that. So she had me do some kicking drills and really wants me to emphasize on strengthening my kicking skills. So while I'm doing these kicking drills (with a kickboard), I'm feeling like I'm not going anywhere...almost as if I'm going backwards...if that makes any sense. Took me FOREVER to get to the other end of the pool (50m)...and after 100m, my legs were totally spent. WTF??? She then had me incorporate the strong kicking into my stroke...had me doing a few sets of 100's. I was SO completely out of breathe and exhausted after this! Now mind you, I can normally swim 2k-3k meters non-stop without a problem (albeit, with my non-existent kick)...but when I added a strong kick to my stroke, I felt like I could barely do 100 meters without gasping for air at the wall! Do I suck that bad...or is something else going on here? She didn't find any other "glaring" mistakes with my stroke...other than that she said I could "roll" a bit more...that's it. My next swim is on Friday, and she wants me to KICK, KICK, KICK. I'm almost dreading it, because the kicking tired me out so quickly. I honestly don't think I could manage my normal 2000-2,500 meter swim if I added a strong kick for the entire workout. Is this kicking issue I'm having, something that I'll overcome with more practice? Or am I totally missing something here? Edited by nscrbug 2009-08-12 9:30 PM |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Just do sets with flippers 1st to get used to it with a kickboard. Then ease into it, maybe do 25s, 50s or a mix, eg 50 freestyle then 50 kick etc. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Also kicking for OWS isn't a huge deal, if you look at the 10k swim in the olympics (youtube perhaps) they hardly kick at all. Did she know you were a triathlete? Kicking generally in triathlon is for balance and kicking at the end to get the blood flowing for the bike. Throw in some kick sets every 2nd training swim of maybe 500m or something and you will get better slowly but surely. |
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![]() Kicking takes a lot of energy. I am a decent swimmer but a SUCKY kicker. The more you do it, the easier it will become. That said, I do no more than say 200 of it per 3K workout. I just don't kick much in OWS, and if I am in a wetsuit, I have almost no kick at all. I know real swimmers like to work on their kick a lot, but IMO it's a much more important element of their stroke. |
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![]() nscrbug - 2009-08-12 9:29 PM So, today I had a swim coach (college girl that coaches a kid's team) meet me at the pool and observe me swim. She had me start out swimming 200 meters doing my "normal" pace, using my "normal" stroke. When I finished with that, she said the first (and most obvious) thing she noticed was that I don't kick...like, at all. I admitted to having a very weak kick. I had always thought I was doing a simple (if not half-a s s ed) 2-beat kick, but apparently I'm not even doing that. According to this coach, my kick is pretty much non-existent. Ok, I'm cool with that. So she had me do some kicking drills and really wants me to emphasize on strengthening my kicking skills. So while I'm doing these kicking drills (with a kickboard), I'm feeling like I'm not going anywhere...almost as if I'm going backwards...if that makes any sense. Took me FOREVER to get to the other end of the pool (50m)...and after 100m, my legs were totally spent. WTF??? She then had me incorporate the strong kicking into my stroke...had me doing a few sets of 100's. I was SO completely out of breathe and exhausted after this! Now mind you, I can normally swim 2k-3k meters non-stop without a problem (albeit, with my non-existent kick)...but when I added a strong kick to my stroke, I felt like I could barely do 100 meters without gasping for air at the wall! Do I suck that bad...or is something else going on here? She didn't find any other "glaring" mistakes with my stroke...other than that she said I could "roll" a bit more...that's it. My next swim is on Friday, and she wants me to KICK, KICK, KICK. I'm almost dreading it, because the kicking tired me out so quickly. I honestly don't think I could manage my normal 2000-2,500 meter swim if I added a strong kick for the entire workout. Is this kicking issue I'm having, something that I'll overcome with more practice? Or am I totally missing something here? So I have a bad kick also. I worked with the masters swim coach and he had me kicking on a board and I was going backwards. The problem was I was kicking from the knees and my feet were not flexing. So my feet were pulling me backwards. IN fact he todl me not to kick for now, just use a bouy and work on stroke He suggested fins and a few people on here suggested Zoomers. Then I tossed the kickboard aside and did kick drills on my side, belly facing the side of the pool. I go left arm down in the water and right arm back. Taking Kevin's advice from this board I started doing shark fin drills. My kick still sucks in my mind, but its better and I am not pulling myself backwards. I really was getting nothing from the kickboard at all. I can tell that the side drills worked right from the get go by the way my legs felt at the end. Just my 2 cents Joe |
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Member![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I'm no pro, but as far as kicking is concerned and being gassed. Doesn't it have to do with the fact that when you then "engage" the larger leg muscles for kicking you're having to use more oxygen to supply those muscles thus being more tired or quicker to rie. I think this is something i heard before. |
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Expert![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I have two years of high school swimming experience and I'm the exact same way. This past year I tried to kick more in hope of improving. But I ended up giving up on that. I can swim decently with the non-existent kick. I would like to improve that for future swimming but it is extremely hard. The best way would be kick drills. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() When I took an OWS clinic a few months ago they told us to practice swimming without kicking if possible. I don't naturally kick much either, so it was easy for me. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() First thing I would do is chat with her about the purpose/usefulness of kicking. I had a Div I coach of a VERY successful women's swim team (they won nationals under him) give me a 45 min "lesson." First thing he asked was what my distance would be. He said since I'm going for length, especially going for tri where I will need my legs the rest of the day, my kick should be for nothing more than balance. Yes, sprinters and even mid-distance-ers need a good strong kick, but we don't. So if she is used to coaching for (and swimming herself) 50m, 100m, even 500m, she's gonna think you need kick. You don't (necessarily). I'll be interested to see other's experience with this as well. That said, you do need your kick for balance, so working on that is a good thing. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() The kick is less important the farther one swims in distance. It's all important in the sprint distances, though. A proper kick begins at the hips, and when done properly and at a 6 beat rate or higher burns 02 quickly. At distance the kick is mainly used to balance out the arm strokes to keep one as streamlined as possible for most of the distance and then the kick rate is picked up once on the sprint to the finish. Learn to kick properly, and learn when and when not to use it. Tips on Kicking This article explains it a little better than I can. If the link does show use http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4270/is_200509/ai_n15347765... |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() its funny that you hear so many triahtletes say kicking should not really happen in longer races, yet some of hte fastest triathlon swimmers, those racing ITU are kicking a decent amount, and some of the better open water swimmers (john kenny come to mind), are also kicking. you can pick up something like 10-20% of speed through this, but it does add something like 60?% increase in air demands. my thought would be to include kicking in your swim training, and do the kick drills, get used to swimming wiht it, then when race day comes you can either keep swimming like that and be faster, or, not kick as much, and after training with kicking, you will feel like you are hardly working. if you want to be a faster swimmer, and assuming you are not grant hacket, kicking is going to help. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() nscrbug - 2009-08-12 10:29 PM So while I'm doing these kicking drills (with a kickboard), I'm feeling like I'm not going anywhere...almost as if I'm going backwards...if that makes any sense. Took me FOREVER to get to the other end of the pool (50m)...and after 100m, my legs were totally spent. WTF??? I just went through this too! Swimming in the morning - there are two other triathlete swimmers in the adjacent lanes. Doing a normal freestyle I'm always slower but not too bad. I noticed them doing various drills and decided to incorporate kicking drills into my workout. Here they are powering down the lane with their kick and I felt as though I wasn't even moving. It was an exhausting and humiliating exercise! I couldn't believe just *how* bad I was. I think I timed myself at over a minute to do 32m kicking!! Despite this I'm going to keep it up. I'm thinking it'll only get better with practice. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Here is my two cents on kicking. Swimmers that have a good efficient kick that doesn't use up a ton of energy should kick. Swimmers (like me) who have a weak inefficient kick that uses up a lot of energy with minimal gain shouldn't kick. Personally, I spent years as a teenager trying to get good at kicking and I never managed to do so. My swim buddies could kick circles around me. However, if you put me in a wetsuit or give me some pullbuoys where my legs are floating at the surface, I can leave them behind. Granted, If I developed a good kick I could go even faster but as I said, years of trying have resigned me to the fact that I will never have a great kick. |
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Member![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Top level sprinters only get 10-15% propulsion from a very concerted effort in their kicking. Kicking for triathletes etc is more for balance, it keeps the legs up in the water which gets more important as you go faster. It also serves to drive the rotation of the body (your instructor said you had bad rotation too, both linked?). Depends how much "flotation" you have in your legs also, some people's legs naturally float high in the water and others don't, so they have to kick alot more to maintain a good water position. Personally, I find the faster I go, the faster I have to kick my legs so as they don't drop in the water. Unless i'm sprinting full out the effort required isn't much at all and wouldn't hinder biking/running, it's always a relaxed effort, probably serves well as a warmup. Swimsmooth has an awesome application out atm, and what's better is it's aimed for triathletes, although as with anything in swimming there's always different points of views.http://www.swimsmooth.com/index.html Edited by ex-buzz 2009-08-13 7:29 AM |
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Member ![]() ![]() | ![]() This could be an incredibly dumb question, but do you think foot size has anything to do with how much your kick helps? I know women tend to have smaller feet than men, yet I see a number of women do fairly well at kick drills at my pool. I know I have small-ish feet (size 9-9.5 on the narrow side) and nearly go backwards doing a kickboard drill. |
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![]() newbz - 2009-08-12 10:09 PM its funny that you hear so many triahtletes say kicking should not really happen in longer races, yet some of hte fastest triathlon swimmers, those racing ITU are kicking a decent amount, and some of the better open water swimmers (john kenny come to mind), are also kicking. you can pick up something like 10-20% of speed through this, but it does add something like 60?% increase in air demands. my thought would be to include kicking in your swim training, and do the kick drills, get used to swimming wiht it, then when race day comes you can either keep swimming like that and be faster, or, not kick as much, and after training with kicking, you will feel like you are hardly working. if you want to be a faster swimmer, and assuming you are not grant hacket, kicking is going to help. ITU is 1500M, right? I don't consider that a longer race (granted, it's not a sprint). Olys/ITUs are in the short course category for me. At any rate, I don't say triathletes shouldn't kick, I just say that I don't kick much, basically a 2 beat mostly for balance. If it is a sprint race, however, I will kick more. |
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![]() NHWinters - 2009-08-13 12:03 PM This could be an incredibly dumb question, but do you think foot size has anything to do with how much your kick helps? I know women tend to have smaller feet than men, yet I see a number of women do fairly well at kick drills at my pool. I know I have small-ish feet (size 9-9.5 on the narrow side) and nearly go backwards doing a kickboard drill. Yes, Thorpe's and Phelps' feet are huge, like flippers |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() NHWinters - 2009-08-13 2:03 PM This could be an incredibly dumb question, but do you think foot size has anything to do with how much your kick helps? I know women tend to have smaller feet than men, yet I see a number of women do fairly well at kick drills at my pool. I know I have small-ish feet (size 9-9.5 on the narrow side) and nearly go backwards doing a kickboard drill. All things being equal yes, a bigger "flipper" will be faster. However, a lot goes into a good kick. Where the kick generates and ankle flexibility is huge. I myself use a 2 beat kick, but I kick hard. Kinda like kicking a soccer ball. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() When I get down on my aerobars I find that I get worn out and sometimes even go backwards when I use them. I talked to a couple of people and they said that I don't even need to use the aerobars at and that I should just sit straight up and pedal. It seems kinda hard to learn and it isn't critical if I want to finish the bike, so I think I'm just gonna put beach cruiser bars on my $5,000 bike and forget about an aero position. You don't have to kick a lot, but if you chose to kick poorly or not at all, you are waisting tons of energy. Spend the time to get a reasonably efficient kick and it will make a world of difference in the swim. Some like to kick more, but I use a 2 beat kick. It's enough to get the job done and allow my arms to be the most productive. If your kick hinders your swimming (kicking backwards, etc.) then at best it is slowing your stroke down. No kick at all will increase your workload as well. Ignoring the problem doesn't make anything easier. People who know me here know that I am not a zoomer fan, but a pair of fins and a kickboard will go a long way. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() A few things to consider when talking about kicking. One of the very first things that you are taught as a child is to learn how to kick properly in swimming. In fact it might be the very first thing that's taught. You see almost all of the kids under 6 years old in kickboard races first. Way before they learn to race and swim freestyle. I fear that kicking is an after thought when adults take up swimming. A proper kick does a few great things for you initially. The amount of power a swimmer can transfer to the water will depend on forward range of motion of the foot. The farther your foot bends forward the more leg power you will be able to transfer to the water and the farther you will travel with each stroke/kick. Depending on how far your foot flexes depends on how much you need to bend you knees which ultimately results in how much propulsion you can generate. So for those of you who have great ankle flexibility kick away! For those of you who don't start working on flexibility? Remember that kicking is not one dimensional. With every down beat in the kick there is also an up beat. I think a lot of people miss this point as well. I would NOT recommend kicking with fins in the beginning. Learn to kick without them. Then once you gain the proper flexibility and you feel that you are kicking fairly well for 50-100 meters then you can move on to the fins.
So things you can do: · Work on ankle flexibility · Vertical kicking in the deep end of the pool · Kicking with a board · Kicking without a board · Add a short kick set into your warm-up · Add a longer kick set into your total workout
I don't care what anyone on this board says. A proper propulsive kick is always going to be faster and more effective in the water. Always.....
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I found this book very helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Fastest-Ernest-W-Maglischo/dp/0736031804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1250192522&sr=8-1 Basically people here repeat what is in that wonderful book. For long swims, less kick needed as the kick uses much more energy/oxygen than is justified in terms of actual propulsion. He recommends a 6-beat kick though, just less intense. The majority of propulsion comes from the forward part of the kick (the leg going down), so focus the power there and "relax" it up to baseline to set up for the next kick. |
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New user![]() ![]() | ![]() nscrbug, Definitely check out TJ Fry's link to his website from a few posts back. He has an article about the 2-beat kick on there with video clips. I recently incorporated a 2-beat kick into my freestyle, was just flutter-kicking before, and I have seen a big difference. My 800 yd time has dropped from ~18 min to ~16 min, and this is just in the past few weeks. Looking forward to seeing more improvements down the road. Timing the kicking just right did take some getting used to but after I figured it out I quickly noticed how much more fluid and efficient my freestyle was. My legs weren't just flailing around like before. Helped out immensely with body rotation too. Best of luck to you! Thanks TJ! |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() neuronet - 2009-08-13 12:44 PM I found this book very helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Fastest-Ernest-W-Maglischo/dp/0736031804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1250192522&sr=8-1 Basically people here repeat what is in that wonderful book. For long swims, less kick needed as the kick uses much more energy/oxygen than is justified in terms of actual propulsion. He recommends a 6-beat kick though, just less intense. The majority of propulsion comes from the forward part of the kick (the leg going down), so focus the power there and "relax" it up to baseline to set up for the next kick. Ehh, a kick beat is highly individualized. And, while Maglischo is a swimming Guru, a lot of what he teaches/espouses is geared towards higher level competitive swimmers. Trying to get a swimmer that is relatively new to the activity to "relax the leg up to baseline" would just seriously confuse them. John |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() nscrbug - 2009-08-12 7:29 PM According to this coach, my kick is pretty much non-existent. Ok, I'm cool with that. So she had me do some kicking drills and really wants me to emphasize on strengthening my kicking skills. So while I'm doing these kicking drills (with a kickboard), I'm feeling like I'm not going anywhere...almost as if I'm going backwards...if that makes any sense. Took me FOREVER to get to the other end of the pool (50m)...and after 100m, my legs were totally spent. WTF??? She then had me incorporate the strong kicking into my stroke...had me doing a few sets of 100's. I was SO completely out of breathe and exhausted after this! Now mind you, I can normally swim 2k-3k meters non-stop without a problem (albeit, with my non-existent kick)...but when I added a strong kick to my stroke, I felt like I could barely do 100 meters without gasping for air at the wall! Do I suck that bad...or is something else going on here? She didn't find any other "glaring" mistakes with my stroke...other than that she said I could "roll" a bit more...that's it. Most likely you are kicking from your knees, and your feet are bent. The line from your shin down through your toes should be a completely flat line. If you can't get that, or it takes a lot of calf/arch flexion, then you need to work on your ankle flexibility. For a GREAT example, take a look at TJ's avatar. Notice his right leg, it's one smooth line from his knee down through his toes. Then read this article from him: http://badig.com/2009/02/improving-your-flutter-kick/ /> John |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Thanks kmcovert, happy to help when I can. Mike I agree with you 95%. I think REGULAR fins are ok to start with though. You can kick poorly with fins and still move forward, but when you kick correctly with fins, you instantly notice the difference in speed. If you start without fins and you are kicking backwards, then it can be really frustrating to even move 1 foot forward. The other thing I like about fins (which early in my swimming I wasn't a big fin fan) is that they can really work your ankles if you let them. I thought I had flexible ankles until I got to college and did some huge sets with fins that made my ankles scream out in pain. THEN I got some seriously flexible ankles. |
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