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Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke
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 2006-03-19 12:55 PM |
Veteran  487   McFarland, WI |  Subject: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" StrokeI was talking with a triathlete yesterday and the topic of swim coaches came up. She made a comment about my swim coach and the fact that he teaches the old "S" stroke and that she didn't think he was a very good coach. She stated that the quicker "P" stroke was the correct way to swim now. She commented that the half circle to start the pull should be much smaller and quicker. I credit my swim coach with getting me to swim in the first place. He took me from nothing to being able to swim. I literally could not swim half a length when I started. So is it the "S" or the "P"? I always thought that pulling straight back was hard on the shoulders and generated less rotation and less power. Do I need a new coach? |
| 2006-03-19 3:25 PM in reply to: #373477 |
Extreme Veteran 495 Stamford, CT | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke I'm a swim coach and I've never heard of the P stroke. I don't think it matters what you call the stroke as long as it is demonstrated correctly. The most important aspects of the free pull when I teach technique are: 1. High elbow position throughout pull 3. Outsweep (initial catch) 4. Insweep (pulling in towards sternum) 5. Downsweep (pulling from sternum past hips) |
| 2006-03-19 3:39 PM in reply to: #373538 |
Extreme Veteran 684 Highlands Ranch, CO | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke I'm not a swim coach or even a very strong swimmer, but I do know that when things are clicking for me, it sounds and feels an awful lot like what jellyfish is describing. I'm trying to imagine a stroke that would resemble a "P," and it seems pretty awkward. |
| 2006-03-19 5:06 PM in reply to: #373477 |
Member 8 | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke I've never heard of a "p" stroke either. |
| 2006-03-19 11:26 PM in reply to: #373477 |
Regular 106 Montana | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke My masters coach told me the same thing, the "S" stroke is out. However, he did not mention a "p". I can not really describe it as a letter. It was a change for my style and it seemed to help. |
| 2006-03-20 9:28 AM in reply to: #373477 |
Expert 623 Wye Mills, MD | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke I don't think the S stroke is out, but I believe there is more of an emphasis on body rotation. What I was told (and jellyfish please correct me if I'm wrong) is when your hand gets to the sternum, you should begin rotating toward that side. To get the most water resistance from your stroke, your hand/forearm needs to move at an angle, through "clean" water (def. - no turbulence behind it. If you move your hand straight, you leave turbulence immediately to the backhand side). So if your belly stayed oriented towards the bottom of the pool, your hand would make an S shape. But since you are rotating, once your hand/forearm passes the sternum you're pulling straight down relative to your body, which is rotating. So your hand/forearm are moving through almost the same space in the water in either stroke, but, by swimming more on your side, your pull is straighter down your body line. And that may be how the "P" is formed. (Otherwise it's just a bad joke waiting to happen |
).| 2006-03-20 9:30 AM in reply to: #373477 |
Giver 18427   | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke Yeah...I've never heard anything about a P stroke. |
| 2006-03-20 9:44 AM in reply to: #373477 |
Wife, Mother, Friend. 2457 South | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke maybe it is when you pee when you stroke?  |
| 2006-03-20 10:46 AM in reply to: #373477 |
Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke retiretotri - 2006-03-19 12:55 PM Do I need a new coach? The proof is in the pudding. How is your swimming coming along? Are you happy with it? Does it feel good? Does it look good? Are your times improving? Is your endurance improving? |
| 2006-03-20 11:16 AM in reply to: #373477 |
| Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke I've not heard it called the "P" stroke, but I'll assume she was referring to a straight arm pull vs an S motion with the out and in sweep that was described by another poster. Personally I think for most AG triathletes who are new to swimming, the emphasis should be on getting a good catch and maintaining a high elbow with a good "grip" on the water throughout the pull. Once you've established those elements of stroke mechanics, the focus should be on swim fitness. The nuances between an "S" shaped pull and a straight arm pull wouldn't kick in until you can swim sub 1:30 100's all day long. Most elite swimmers today swim the crawl with a straight arm pull. However Mark Spitz seemed to have some success with an S pull. scott Edited by yaqui 2006-03-20 11:18 AM |
| 2006-03-20 12:00 PM in reply to: #373477 |
| Pro 4040 | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke Just stay away from the capital Q stroke and the M stroke. I saw a guy doing an M stroke yesterday, and it wasn't pretty. Don't even get me started on the capital B stroke. |
| 2006-03-20 12:21 PM in reply to: #374239 |
Extreme Veteran 495 Stamford, CT | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke Quote [Most elite swimmers today swim the crawl with a straight arm pull. However Mark Spitz seemed to have some success with an S pull] Not exactly. Most elite swimmers today swim with a high elbow position throughout the catch. The arms are bent at almost 90 degrees during the first portion of the pull. Take a look at www.swim.ee for some great videos that demonstrate this (particularly Ian Thorpe). It's much easier to see it than to describe it. Edited by jellyfish 2006-03-20 12:29 PM |
| 2006-03-20 1:44 PM in reply to: #374328 |
| Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke >>Most elite swimmers today swim with a high elbow position throughout the catch. The arms are bent at almost 90 degrees during the first portion of the pull. I agree 100%. I don't think I said anything to contradict that. In fact I think I said "the emphasis should be on getting a good catch and maintaining a high elbow with a good "grip" on the water throughout the pull." If you can find video of Thorpe shot from the front or behind, you'll notice that there is very little (if any) outsweep or insweep in his stroke. Unlike a Spitz who had a very noticeable S pattern to his stroke. Another change in the stroke is the finish. Swimmers are now finishing their stroke at their hip, prior to their arm reaching full extension. Meaning the elbow is still above the hand and hand is still perpindicular to the water surface. Most AG triathletes have three issues to deal with in swimming: Poor balance, dropped elbow, lack of swim specific fitness. scott |
| 2006-03-20 2:42 PM in reply to: #373477 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke Correct me if I'm wrong... But this helped me take 5 seconds off my 100 from a 1:40 to a 1:35, without any noticiable difference in effort or fatigue. I have a hard time visualizing what a "high elbow" means. At this conference I attended, there was a dry land trainer to help you form the "shape" of your stroke. It was shaped like a cursive "Q" ... no, just jokign about the Q part... Anyway, the best way to describe it in words is that your humerus (the long bone of your upper arm) stays in line, or parallel to your upper back throughout the stroke, regardless of your body's rotation in the water. This keeps your elbow "high", and also engages all of your upper back muscles, which otherwise drop out of the picture if you let your elbow "drop", or in otherwords, if your upper arm no longer stays parallel to your back. I've been practicing this and finding to be more powerful, less fatiguing and as my upper back muscles get stronger, faster as well. As far as what letter it corresponds to, I have no idea. Any thoughts on this? |
| 2006-03-20 2:52 PM in reply to: #374542 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke AB - that's pretty much right on the money. You still have to drive your hips down to the bottom, but what you are describing is good. Also - for those of you that use Thorpe as a model - yes he is the fastest swimmer in the history of swimming - and we all wish we could swim like him - however - he is a genetic freak. He has been swimming millions of yards a year for about 20 years and he has size 17 feet - he was born to swim. :-) |
| 2006-03-20 2:57 PM in reply to: #374555 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke mikericci - 2006-03-20 3:52 PM he is a genetic freak. He has been swimming millions of yards a year for about 20 years and he has size 17 feet - he was born to swim. :-) So basically he was born with swim fins? |
| 2006-03-20 3:04 PM in reply to: #374568 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Swimming-"S" vs the "P" Stroke AdventureBear - 2006-03-20 12:57 PM mikericci - 2006-03-20 3:52 PM So basically he was born with swim fins?he is a genetic freak. He has been swimming millions of yards a year for about 20 years and he has size 17 feet - he was born to swim. :-) Remember when Ernie was presenting at the Coaching Conference and showed us footage of Perkins and Thorpe and how Thorpe 'kicked' into his catch? That is why he is such a distinct advantage over the rest of us mere mortals. His feet are big enough to be fins, exactly right! |
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