Question for the Coaches: Power meter use and pedal technique, what say you?

None.  And I wouldn't unless someone were able to demonstrate that some particular technique, beyond pushing down on them as hard as possible, would make a difference.

This is my whole *issue* with those that tout Garmin's power pedal system as advantageous for measuring power from each leg independently.  It's not at all clear that there is any real advantage from doing so. Conversely, I don't see other systems at a disadvantage because they only measure power once.  It is not a reason I would select one system over another.

I'd match it against heart rate. Whether it's cadence or cleat placement or toe up/toe down, you could see trends (although minute) when you put the power against the hr and graph it. I would also add that I wouldn't even bother looking until after about an hour or 2 of pedaling. A few minutes on a trainer tell you nothing.

In reading through these responses is it fair to summarize them by saying pedaling technique plays either no or a minimal role in efficiency and performance?

In other words- all you have to do is push down when the pedal comes up?

Pretty much.  Set a person up well on the bike, clip them in and have them ride a lot.  You have information to the contrary?

I'd argue that when someone is first learning to ride it's important to learn correct pedal technique - think wiping mud off your shoes at the bottom of the pedal stroke. Some people utilize their calves far too much (more toe down) - your upper legs can produce more power, so correct pedaling technique is important.

However, most people that have a powermeter or are considering one generally have good technique, so it becomes a mute point. While it might be interesting to see which leg is stronger, or when I'm producing the most power in the pedal stroke, it all becomes irrelevant when you take the entire wattage over a ride.

Ok, so let me see if I get this straight:

Everyone in internet-forum-world tells athletes to go spend $200+ to get a precise fit on the bike because it means everything to move your seat 2mm and if you can get 1cm lower going 17mph it will save you tons as proven by a powermeter.

In swimming, the tri world tells us we must perfect the stroke before we even attempt to add volume in fear that bad habits will permanently form, and there is absolutely no way that by simply swimming more that we will become more efficient.

But when it comes to pedaling efficiency, it doesn't make a bit of difference in the world? You can just slap the ole cleat on the heel of your shoe and pedal with mostly 1 leg, and you're body will adapt to whatever you decide to do and make that the most efficient? Dragging your heels on a seated climb, dancing on the pedals, all the various techniques and techology in pedals and form, high cadence, low cadence, and none of that matters a bit? just squish that darn pedal down when you can?

Please, someone straighten me out.

"...pedaling efficiency is one of those things that simply improves the more you cycle."

Fred, I'm with you on that.

I'll add there are ways to improve pedal stroke and, by association, efficiency that transcend or add to rote repetition, i.e., Merckx's "ride lots" from his famous quote.

That said, even Merckx did things to specifically improve pedalling technque. He rode fixed gear bikes, worked on cadence and form. He did one-legged drills. That was the late 1960's and early 1970's.

Today we have even better training tools for evaluating, critiquing and improving pedal stroke and efficiency. I'll add to your comments that using some of those training and diagnostic tools will likely speed up the process of improving efficiency.

If you are fit reasonably well on the bike, there's only so much you can do with your pedal stroke.  You can play with cleat position, etc., but the basics of moving fixed cranks in circle with your legs does not require that much 'technique'.  And what technique you might need can easily be gained by riding a lot--again, assuming your position is reasonable.  You can play with your fit (tweak a cm here or there, shift cleats a bit, etc.) in order to be more comfortable so that you can focus your effort on applying more 'squish'.

Edit:  Deleted my swim comment.  Not because it was wrong, but just because the comparisons between swimming & biking break down too quickly in this case (and it's really a separate discussion).  Swimming has far more 'degrees of freedom' of motion than cycling--especially when focusing on the pedal stroke.

Explain how this improved technique translated into faster riding.  Wait...don't.  Because you can't.  All you can do is say he did those things.  There's no 'ipso facto' from it regarding pedal technique or efficiency.

Such as? As far as I know, there isn't any accepted 'proper' pedal stroke, so what would you improve?.  And you can't even measure efficiency without going into a lab.  From studies that have been done, I don't think it has even been established that one can meaningfully improve their cycling efficiency.

Johnny: haven't you said before (and I seriously don't remember so correct me if I'm wrong) that pedaling in circles (i.e. applying pressure to the pedal throughout the rotation) is a waist? (i agree btw) So wouldn't that be the perfect example and apply here?

I thought this was a good question so I did a google search for why.

• Without something holding your foot securely to the pedal, it would be easy to slip off the pedal and send your foot into the wheel. Not so likely to happen on a trip around the block, but on a longer ride, when you're tired...

• There is a correct placement for the position of your foot over the pedal axle

• A good pedal/shoe system has to be able to transfer all of the power from your leg to the pedals without trying to bend your foot over the top of the pedal, which causes both fatigue and pain

• You shouldn't have to think about how your feet connect to the bicycle while you're riding. You should be concentrating on having fun, not technique!

 I agree with the above.  When I got my first road bike the shifting was kind of rough, and I remember my feet flying off the pedals just from shifting.  To me clipless actually seem safer.  

It's not that there is absolutely zero technique, it's that it's so easy to pick up on it from just riding that there is not a need to do extra drills. Your butt stays in one spot (it's supposed to at least). Your feet have a fixed and guided path to move along. Power down and through, alternating legs, finding your rhythm. That's about it. Just go ride and it will come well enough.

Pro cyclists aren't fast because of the pedaling technique drills. They're fast because they have FTP's of 440-500 watts. They ride incredible amounts of miles every week. On an otherwise easy ride, they might do a little bit of technique to gain every fraction of a second. At the least, it might help keep them engaged more. They will not be doing this in place of power development.

I see Johnny updated some about tj's bike fit/ swim comparison question, and it is indeed with the degrees of freedom. Swimming is a whole-body dynamic set of motions while bike fit is to get a person situated in a relatively static position.

The pedaling complete circles might be related, but is a little different. Pedaling circles is more a question of whether that technique works better or not vs the scope of this thread which is on technique work being an effective use of time or not. And no, I don't believe circles in the way described are very effective.

Let me first say that I've been playing devil's advocate a little here to prove a point. I certainly agree that in swimming the amount of technique involved dwarfs the other two sports (although great efficiencies are created through volume/repetition). I also think that pedal technique is extremely minimal on the scale of things. Having said that though...

If you feel that pedal technique has no role in cycling or makes no difference, that's fine. But if that's your take, then you can't turnaround and say that pedaling in circles is a waste of energy. If it makes no difference, then it can't make any difference. That's my whole point. You can't suggest to people that they should stop pedaling in circles because of it inefficiencies on one thread and then jump on another and say pedaling technique has no value. If there's a preffered method, then common sense would say that there is some value, even if minor, in practicing and focusing on that method. 

I did have a feeling you were playing devil's advocate as you are plenty good enough to know at least a good part of this.

I'm not saying that there is no technique involved pedaling, but that there is very little value in creating time to do technique specific drills. It's plenty easy to become rather efficient at pedaling by just going out and riding a lot. Focus on power development and the application will come. If youw want to spin faster, then spin faster. Your body will learn how to adjust well enough.  There are things to incorporate, such as scraping mud, or how to dance on the pedals while standing, but you don't need drills to learn how to do that. There is no need for software analysis. Just go ride and learn to feel it.

I understand what you are saying (I think), but the point is that there is no need to get overly focused on pedalling technique.  If you have a decent position on the bike and you ride it a lot, your body will quickly figure out and adapt to what it needs to do.  There's no particular preferred method (e.g., toe down or flat foot) as far as form. 

For power application, the more the better.  If you are focusing on how and where you apply the power, you are probably wasting energy that would would be better spent on mashing down harder.  To actually 'pedal in circles' (the way I think you are talking about) actually requires more focus and likely recruits small muscle groups that result in inefficienies.  My advice for someone doing that would not be to focus on the preferred pedalling method.  It would be to stop thinking about it altogether and just ride.

Of course, I am not a coach.  Just a person with a perspective.