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2012-05-07 8:08 AM

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Subject: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
This was suggested to me by another forum member. A similar concept to what Jordan Rapp does after a race on ST where he opens a discourse on the race and how he approached it.

I feel a little odd as I don't want this to come across as a vanity thread all about me started by me, but I learned some very valuable lessons on Saturday out on the IMSG course that I wanted to be able to share with the community, I was going to include all those thoughts in my race report but I think an ongoing discussion with other members contributing would be even more valuable.

I am posting this here in the main forum as opposed to the Ironman Distance forum as much of what people experenced on Saturday is applicable regardless of distance and I encourage others who were in the race to share their feeling and thoughts about what went right, what went wrong, and how they managed both.


2012-05-07 8:29 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

Great idea Bry.  Curious as to your thoughts on the windy bike.  What exactly were the conditions and how did you cope mentally and strategically effort-wise.  We got hit by horrendous storms at a HIM in Iowa once and I've never experienced worse conditions than that race....30-45 mph winds and heavy, pelting rain that stung your arms.   I just stayed calm and conditions improved on the run.

Congrats on a great race and another KQ

2012-05-07 8:30 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
I didn't participate, but I'd love to benefit from your approach to how you handled those kind of swim conditions. I looked at your picture in the other thread and just imagined swallowing gallons of water, which wouldn't be too healthy. How did you overcome that?
2012-05-07 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
Birkierunner - 2012-05-07 7:29 AM

Great idea Bry.  Curious as to your thoughts on the windy bike.  What exactly were the conditions and how did you cope mentally and strategically effort-wise.  We got hit by horrendous storms at a HIM in Iowa once and I've never experienced worse conditions than that race....30-45 mph winds and heavy, pelting rain that stung your arms.   I just stayed calm and conditions improved on the run.

Congrats on a great race and another KQ



Yeah, Jim, the bike is where I had the most adversity to deal with. When I realized that the winds were going to be blowing as hard as they were, as i was leaving T1 I immediatley began to visualize the course and consider where the winds would be hitting me during the two main loops of the bike course. This then opened up my internal dialogue as who to consider pacing, when I would need to hold a higher effort, and, more improtantly, when I would have the opportunity to recover. That was a key part, knowing that there would be times where I could get my recovery and to make sure I backed off and took advantage of it.

In regards to the wind, I made sure to stay down on the aerobars in a low gear and spin my legs to the appropriate kevel of effort I had trained for, whgich in my case is based on HR. I was going very slow, but everyone around me was sitting up or worse, standing up trying to fight the wind. I just made myself as small as possible on the bike and made a game out of it. How low could I go. Staying down on those bars was likely the single best decision I made that morning.

A final note, although it was a call I made prior to knowing the conditions. I wore my LG Vorticce aero helmet with the wind visor instead of sunglasses. By having that wrap around visor covering most of my face, my helmet didn't get buffeted by the wind gusts and i felt very enclosed and isolated whgich menatlly kept me foucused as opposed to distracted.
2012-05-07 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
fisherman76 - 2012-05-07 7:30 AM

I didn't participate, but I'd love to benefit from your approach to how you handled those kind of swim conditions. I looked at your picture in the other thread and just imagined swallowing gallons of water, which wouldn't be too healthy. How did you overcome that?


Everyone is going to have different comfort levels in the water based on their experience growing up. As a kid, I swam in the ocean all the time and don't get anxious in rough water, waves, and most importantly, when I inadvertantly swallow water and can't get a breath. That sensation is what causes some to panic, when they go to breathe and instead get a mouth full of water down their throat. I'm not sure how anyone can prepare for that besides experiencing it and realizing that if you settle down, maybe roll on you back (I saw guys right up there with me backstroke a few seconds to gather themselves), and know that if you just stop, tread water, cough, you will be ok. I don't really get concerend about the sanitary aspect of the water as I am not very GI sensitive BUT I did hold off drining water on the bike for about 20min to make sure my stomach cleared of the water I had ingested while swimming. I just remembered that and I think that was very important.

In regards to the waves and chop, my best advice would be to first ACCEPT IT. If you immediatley begin to dwell on it you are in trouble. I made a decision to not waste any mental energy worrying about the conditions once it got bad. I also accepted that my time would be way slow and I needed to get through as best I could and move on with the day. That was very emotionaly freeing.
2012-05-07 9:09 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

Bryan,

 

I live in a very windy part of the country and deal with winds all the time.  BUt I still struggle as far as pacing goes.  Can you talk a little more on strategy?  I know you said you went by HR.  Did you allow yourself to go to a higher HR in the headwind and recover in the tail wind, stay steady HR the entire time? Or something different.  What was the strategy you talked about on recovery?

 

OH....and what wheelset did you ride?



2012-05-07 9:12 AM
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Did you hit a point in the race where you wanted to slow down, stop, or throw in the towel? How did you push through it?


Edited by xatefrogg 2012-05-07 9:14 AM
2012-05-07 9:15 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
Thanks Bryan. Your responses so far have shown something I think is a valuable lesson, which is that the IM is as much about your ability to manage your body and make intelligent, thoughtful decisions as you go as it is about your ability to swim, bike, and run. We all hear about the value of having a proper nutrition and hydration plan, but you've given me a different perspective on how to manage my mind. Coping with the unexpected is a truly mammoth obstacle, and being calm, rational, and methodical about getting through it is obviously key. Thanks for the tips! Keep em coming!
2012-05-07 9:16 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

Hi Bryan, knowing the conditions were going to be so rough/windy on the bike, did you still rock the Storm Trooper Disc (or did the conditions just spring up, I did not read about the race reports about the weather forecasts)?   Also, how do you prepare for strong side gusts while trying to stay down on the bars as much as possible or does that just come with practice/experience.  And looking back, is there anything you would change in any part of the race, s/b/or r?

Congrats on a great race and meeting your personal goals!  And as always for the strong advice you offer up!



Edited by bgeyeguy 2012-05-07 9:19 AM
2012-05-07 9:33 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
Meulen - 2012-05-07 8:09 AM

Bryan,

 

I live in a very windy part of the country and deal with winds all the time.  BUt I still struggle as far as pacing goes.  Can you talk a little more on strategy?  I know you said you went by HR.  Did you allow yourself to go to a higher HR in the headwind and recover in the tail wind, stay steady HR the entire time? Or something different.  What was the strategy you talked about on recovery?

 

OH....and what wheelset did you ride?



Hey man. My planned HR for the bike was to hold a range of 135-145bpms. That's what I train long rides and it's like second nature. On the first loop while down on the bars and trying to hide from the wind and spin, I was holding in the 138-142 range pretty comfortably. On the climbs, I stayed seated as much as I could and did not violate the 145 no matter how slow I was climbing into the wind.Once i reached the 12+ miles of downhill/tailwind, I let my HR drop to mid 130's. That was the recovery.

On the second loop, the fatigue started to set in as I knew it would and now 135-138 was getting hard to sit on, but I was ok with that and made it a game to keep as close around 135 as I could. Once the final climb was over at mile 90, I knew I would have 22 miles of mostly downhill and tailwing again and let my HR fall back into the low 130's. Once I hit the big descent, I spun up my 11 cassette and then free wheeled! I coasted, all my body weight leaning forward, off the saddlle an over the tobe tube, slammed down on the aero bars. I was flying and loving and and gave my legs at least 10min of hardly any work.

One last point, I had to adjust my effort not just for the winds and climbs, I had to make allowances for the fact that I was going to be out on the bike for almost 25min longer then I planned. That effected my nutrtion startegy as well as pacing. I neede to play a long game that I had never had to consider in the past and that made the recovery even more critical.
2012-05-07 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
xatefrogg - 2012-05-07 8:12 AM

Did you hit a point in the race where you wanted to slow down, stop, or throw in the towel? How did you push through it?


You mean THE BIG SUCK? That point where it's not just that you are tired but you are just DONE being out there? You bet, every Ironman I go through that. Knowing it's going to come is the first line of defense. Once it does set in you have a couple of options. One is to stop, but that's not what you want to do. So it's time for distraction. Play the aid station game where as you approach an aid station you think about what you want to get and in what order. Look around at the homes on the street and think what you would do if you lived there. I even try and qoute dialogue from STAR WARS in my head because it makes me happy and distracts me. Do that enough, and you just ran a little farther and are that much closer. NEVER think about the distance in it's entirety. Always break it down to the immediate, what's happeing RIGHT NOW not 10min from now.



2012-05-07 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

Glad to see you are doing this Bryan, this is another example of your selfless attitude and caring for the triathlon community. I have a bunch of Q's but I will hold back mostly until after the RR is up as I think some of them will be answered then.

How was your training this time around for IM different then others, I know you had a running injury, how did that play into the role of training?

Mentally what was the single hardest part of the day, and what did you do to overcome?

2012-05-07 9:40 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

bryancd - 2012-05-07 9:56 AM

...my best advice would be to first ACCEPT IT. If you immediatley begin to dwell on it you are in trouble. I made a decision to not waste any mental energy worrying about the conditions once it got bad. I also accepted that my time would be way slow and I needed to get through as best I could and move on with the day. That was very emotionaly freeing.

Great race Bryan!  Congrats on a superb performance.

I quoted this part for truth, and I'd say that it applies not just to tough swim conditions, but to ANY tough conditions.  

Acceptance = Relaxation = Speed.

2012-05-07 9:45 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
bgeyeguy - 2012-05-07 8:16 AM

Hi Bryan, knowing the conditions were going to be so rough/windy on the bike, did you still rock the Storm Trooper Disc (or did the conditions just spring up, I did not read about the race reports about the weather forecasts)?   Also, how do you prepare for strong side gusts while trying to stay down on the bars as much as possible or does that just come with practice/experience.  And looking back, is there anything you would change in any part of the race, s/b/or r?

Congrats on a great race and meeting your personal goals!  And as always for the strong advice you offer up!



I did, I ran an 808 front and rear 900 disc. Clearly as I began the bike I was a bit concerned that might have been a mistake, but I was committed. In post race conversations with other athletes who rode a disc, opinions varied. Some people wished they hadn't but I was ok with it. The front wheel causes the twitchy handleing in cross winds, so perhaps a 404 front might have mitigated that, but there were on;y a few times I felt like I was getting pushed around and I never felt uncomfortable. Yes, I think you need to experience that to be prepared for it. I can say that the wheels provided a major advantage during the descents and flats, so i would make the same call again knowing what I know now.

As of right now, there was nothing in my execution I cna recall that I would have changed.
2012-05-07 9:45 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
bryancd - 2012-05-07 9:33 AM
Meulen - 2012-05-07 8:09 AM

Bryan,

 

I live in a very windy part of the country and deal with winds all the time.  BUt I still struggle as far as pacing goes.  Can you talk a little more on strategy?  I know you said you went by HR.  Did you allow yourself to go to a higher HR in the headwind and recover in the tail wind, stay steady HR the entire time? Or something different.  What was the strategy you talked about on recovery?

 

OH....and what wheelset did you ride?

Hey man. My planned HR for the bike was to hold a range of 135-145bpms. That's what I train long rides and it's like second nature. On the first loop while down on the bars and trying to hide from the wind and spin, I was holding in the 138-142 range pretty comfortably. On the climbs, I stayed seated as much as I could and did not violate the 145 no matter how slow I was climbing into the wind.Once i reached the 12+ miles of downhill/tailwind, I let my HR drop to mid 130's. That was the recovery. On the second loop, the fatigue started to set in as I knew it would and now 135-138 was getting hard to sit on, but I was ok with that and made it a game to keep as close around 135 as I could. Once the final climb was over at mile 90, I knew I would have 22 miles of mostly downhill and tailwing again and let my HR fall back into the low 130's. Once I hit the big descent, I spun up my 11 cassette and then free wheeled! I coasted, all my body weight leaning forward, off the saddlle an over the tobe tube, slammed down on the aero bars. I was flying and loving and and gave my legs at least 10min of hardly any work. One last point, I had to adjust my effort not just for the winds and climbs, I had to make allowances for the fact that I was going to be out on the bike for almost 25min longer then I planned. That effected my nutrtion startegy as well as pacing. I neede to play a long game that I had never had to consider in the past and that made the recovery even more critical.

 

thanks Bryan! that helps alot!  I usually use power, but I also pay attention to HR and how it relates in different situations.  It's probably a better game plan to ditch power and speed data when faced with conditions like this.  Like you said, there's a certain amount of acceptance involved and then adjustments to the overall plan. 

 

thanks man!

and Congrats!

2012-05-07 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
bcagle25 - 2012-05-07 8:39 AM

Glad to see you are doing this Bryan, this is another example of your selfless attitude and caring for the triathlon community. I have a bunch of Q's but I will hold back mostly until after the RR is up as I think some of them will be answered then.

How was your training this time around for IM different then others, I know you had a running injury, how did that play into the role of training?

Mentally what was the single hardest part of the day, and what did you do to overcome?



Thank you for suggesting it.

My training was very bike course specific. All my long rides incorporated climbing...lot's of climbing. No tempo efforts, no intervals, just sit at my planned race effort HR and clib every hill within 60 miles of home. It was long course bike specific strength training by design. My run injury allowed me to do a block of swim training I likely would not have done had I been running more. There's no way based on my split toi gauge how much i may have improved, but at the very least I exited the water feeling very comfortable in terms of effort spent. Having said that, my run fitness was a sgood as it could be for the time I had to train but it could have been better.

Hardest part of the day? Hearing my coach tell me at mile 16 or so that 1st place was only 5min ahead and was looking bad. I ran the first loop thinking he was 20min ahead and gone and I was fighting for second. Now I am being told I have a chance but I need to keep racing when all I want to do is stop. I hurt so badly that the desire to win was being challenged by the desire to slow down.


2012-05-07 10:19 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

Bryan,

First off, congratulations!  

Now, I know that the bike is an important part and that IMSG is a very challenging course, but all IM wins eventually come down to foot races. Could you talk about the run portion some? Specifically, how are you pacing your run? Do you start off at say 140bpm, but by the end you're running at 160bpm b/c of cardiac drift (those are just random numbers)? What was your nutrition strategy? Finally, on ST you mentioned that you were "running scared" from one of your fast approaching teammates. What was that last 4 miles like and how hard (pacewise) were you going at the end?

Thanks!
Dan 

2012-05-07 10:23 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
Birkierunner - 2012-05-07 8:29 AM

Great idea Bry.  Curious as to your thoughts on the windy bike.  What exactly were the conditions and how did you cope mentally and strategically effort-wise.  We got hit by horrendous storms at a HIM in Iowa once and I've never experienced worse conditions than that race....30-45 mph winds and heavy, pelting rain that stung your arms.   I just stayed calm and conditions improved on the run.

Congrats on a great race and another KQ

Ditto. Wind. Both on the bike and running. We're gusting to 30 today, and I don't even want to try the bike. I did run, and it was miserable running into the wind. At least I don't have climbs also to contend with -- I assume IMSG does.

2012-05-07 10:35 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
silentcs42 - 2012-05-07 9:19 AM

Bryan,

First off, congratulations!  

Now, I know that the bike is an important part and that IMSG is a very challenging course, but all IM wins eventually come down to foot races. Could you talk about the run portion some? Specifically, how are you pacing your run? Do you start off at say 140bpm, but by the end you're running at 160bpm b/c of cardiac drift (those are just random numbers)? What was your nutrition strategy? Finally, on ST you mentioned that you were "running scared" from one of your fast approaching teammates. What was that last 4 miles like and how hard (pacewise) were you going at the end?

Thanks!
Dan 



Hey Dan, thank you!

Yeah, I was very focused on trying to run as well as I could and as I mentioned above and want to convey is that I made an effort to be more conservative towrds the end of the bike to try and make that work for me. As much as I know I make huge time gains relative to the firled because of my cycling, in an Ironman the run is where it all matters. More on that in my RR and about the guy who nearly caught me at the end due to his incredible run. It turned out there was not only one, but two guys who were moving up the AG rank we didn't know about.

The plan was to run with a HR range of 140-150. My coach wanted me to really go after the downhills and recover on the uphills of this 3 loop course. I was able to sit around 145 for the first 8 miles but as the fatigue of the longer swim and bike began to take hold, I knew I would have to make adjustments to both effort and nutrition. I made a goal of trying to stay in the low 140's for the second loop and to start earlier on the Coke, which I usually save until as late in the race as possible, but I needed the boost. Then on the last loop, knowing I had a chance to win and still needed to not get caught....I just kept running. There was no magic moment where I turned into a superstar, I just continued to struggle through and hoped it would be enough because it was all I had to give.
2012-05-07 10:35 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
Bryan,
First off thanks for taking the time to answer all of our questions. From a nutritional aspect do you normally live off the course? What was your nutrition plan for the race? Did it change in any way other than holding off on drinking for the first 20 minutes on the bike? Was it difficult to take in nutrition on the bike with the wind? Did you have everything that you needed on the bike? Or were you able to easily get the on course nutrition from the bike aid stations without stopping with all of that wind? Anything else that you can add in on how you handled your nutrition for the race would be greatly appreciated!

Congrats again on a great race!
2012-05-07 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
Catwoman - 2012-05-07 9:35 AM

Bryan,
First off thanks for taking the time to answer all of our questions. From a nutritional aspect do you normally live off the course? What was your nutrition plan for the race? Did it change in any way other than holding off on drinking for the first 20 minutes on the bike? Was it difficult to take in nutrition on the bike with the wind? Did you have everything that you needed on the bike? Or were you able to easily get the on course nutrition from the bike aid stations without stopping with all of that wind? Anything else that you can add in on how you handled your nutrition for the race would be greatly appreciated!

Congrats again on a great race!


Thanks Cat!

I do live off the course for bike and run hydartion. I carried a water bottle with 7 gels mixed in water on the bike from the start and a water only bottle. I also had two PR Bars cut into quarters and two more gels in a FuelBoc on my top tube. I worked through the GU/water mix during the bike and spaced out eatring the PR Bar bits every 20 miles or so. My plan, and I was able to adjust for the longer ride, was to work through that bottle and then toss it and use the last two gels for a little extra at the end. So all I had to grab at the aid stations was water which I don't have to slow down much to catch. So I ballparked how much of the bottle to drink visiually as the bike wore on, made sure to eat my last PR bar before mile 100 so I could digest it, and drank to thirst, no more no less.

Once on the run, I carrried a gel flask with me but got sick of it by the first loop. I gut some water and some perfrom at every aid station and then by half way switched to ice water and Coke, no more gel or Perfrom.


2012-05-07 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

Congrats on the AG win and thanks for taking the time to do this thread. I really enjoy Jordan Rapp's "Ask Me Anything" threads, glad to see you doing this in BT.

You've already touched on it in a couple of posts, but I was very interested to know how you were keeping track of your AG position. I know you mentioned your coach knew you were catching the guy ahead of you, but also mentioned that a couple of AG'ers were closer than you knew.

Also, I know you've KQ'd before, but is this your first win?

2012-05-07 12:50 PM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
zed707 - 2012-05-07 11:38 AM

Congrats on the AG win and thanks for taking the time to do this thread. I really enjoy Jordan Rapp's "Ask Me Anything" threads, glad to see you doing this in BT.

You've already touched on it in a couple of posts, but I was very interested to know how you were keeping track of your AG position. I know you mentioned your coach knew you were catching the guy ahead of you, but also mentioned that a couple of AG'ers were closer than you knew.

Also, I know you've KQ'd before, but is this your first win?



Yeah, this is my first win. I was 4th at IMAZ '07 and 3rd at IMAZ '09.

My coach Nick as positioned up at he rotary before heading up Diagonal Rd. which was mile 6.5 first loop, mile 15, second loop, and almost mile 26 last loop if you follow my menaing. So I rode by him on the way into T2 and he yelled out I was 2nd in the AG, 3rd AG OA coming off the bike. I knew that as I recalled the big German guy in my AG passing my on the bike at mile 5 or so and i never caught him but I didn;t know about others, so this confirmed it. As I ran by him for the first time he told me I was 20min down on first. So I figured I was racing for second and needed to be more concerned about being caught then chasing. As I came back by him heading towrds starting my second loop, my coach told me the gap coming down and now I was only 10min back. At mile 15 he told me I was on;ly 5min back and the German guy was falling apart.

So I know who he is and I now my team mate Jim is about a mile behind me and he was third as I began that last 8 miles. The problem was IRONMAN Live stopped updating run splits and the course was filled with other AG'ers on their 1st or 2nd laps. So I was being passed by M40-44 but they were still fresh and on their second loops. Once I passed the German guy I still had 4.2 miles to hold off Jim. What we didn't know and had no way tot track, was two guys who were ripping through the AG field and one of whom almost caught me but I didn't know that until later that night! Another 1/2 mile he would have caught me, he ran a 3:08.
2012-05-07 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and

Bryan, Congrats on incredible race in unreal conditions. Me and a couple buddies went down to train and watch the race. I am amazed(and grateful) that everyone came out of that water ok. We saw people who came back to the start of the swim thinking that was the exit. They were confused because of the markers bouys had been blown all over.

At the post race interview, Ben Hoffman said that was the hardest race that he has ever done......the hardest thing he has ever done.  Mike reilly said it's the first time that he has brought the overall winner in at over 9 hours.

This is an absoloutely epic win for you on an epic day. We saw you come through the finishing shoot and you looked like a champion.

Now for the question...you mentioned using HR for the run and bike. How did you choose your zones? Percent of ATHR? Percent of max? RPE? I am signed up for my first IM and can't decide what HR range to use.



Edited by johnyutah5 2012-05-07 1:01 PM
2012-05-07 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: IMSG and racing in tough conditions Q and
A number of years ago my coach and I used metabolic testing to estblish my HR zones. Since then it been based on training and racing observations of my HR. It is very important to correctly gauge your HR zones initially and then you can use races as opportunities to validate that data. My HR zones I discussed ealrier, if expressed as a % of my LT, would be about an 95-90% of my LT for an IM, but that's pretty high for most folks. I think most race more in the 70's% of LT but I am not an expert on that.
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