Any stock traders in here ?
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I'm strictly "smalltime" but this is one of my passions. I trade a little and I'm starting to learn how much I don't know. So much fun to "choose correctly" but you can lose your a$$ in 5 minutes. What say you ? eta: content Edited by tri42 2012-07-06 9:51 AM |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tri42 - 2012-07-06 8:42 AM I'm strictly "smalltime" but this is one of my passions. I trade a little and I'm starting to learn how much I don't know. So much fun to "choose correctly" but you can lose your a$$ in 5 minutes. What say you ? eta: content
Nope, it's rigged. See:Barclays, Libor. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I've made and lost a lot of money on the markets. I've done everything from option spreads, straight puts/calls, writing puts/calls, and swing trading different equities. I've come to the realization that it's no different than going to vegas. Even if everything lines up exactly right it still seems to work out so I lose money. That being said, I love the leverage you get with options but I hate the huge losses you take at the onset with the bid/ask spread. I also hate the time decay aspect. So I've been swing trading the ultra leveraged ETF's UPRO & SPXU to long and short the SP500. I've had moderate success with these. They're most certainly not buy and hold type stocks though. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tuwood - 2012-07-06 11:13 AM I've made and lost a lot of money on the markets. I've done everything from option spreads, straight puts/calls, writing puts/calls, and swing trading different equities. I've come to the realization that it's no different than going to vegas. Even if everything lines up exactly right it still seems to work out so I lose money. That being said, I love the leverage you get with options but I hate the huge losses you take at the onset with the bid/ask spread. I also hate the time decay aspect. So I've been swing trading the ultra leveraged ETF's UPRO & SPXU to long and short the SP500. I've had moderate success with these. They're most certainly not buy and hold type stocks though. You have "real" experience........... thx for your comments! You know, I'm coming to the same realization......it really is legalized gambling in many aspects. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tri42 - 2012-07-06 10:18 AM tuwood - 2012-07-06 11:13 AM You have "real" experience........... thx for your comments! You know, I'm coming to the same realization......it really is legalized gambling in many aspects. I've made and lost a lot of money on the markets. I've done everything from option spreads, straight puts/calls, writing puts/calls, and swing trading different equities. I've come to the realization that it's no different than going to vegas. Even if everything lines up exactly right it still seems to work out so I lose money. That being said, I love the leverage you get with options but I hate the huge losses you take at the onset with the bid/ask spread. I also hate the time decay aspect. So I've been swing trading the ultra leveraged ETF's UPRO & SPXU to long and short the SP500. I've had moderate success with these. They're most certainly not buy and hold type stocks though. Yep, there was a good friend of mine I worked with who took a $25k account and turned it into $0 in less than 5 days trading his "sure thing" options strategy. 7 or 8 years ago when I was really into options I took $5k and turned it into $40k in about three weeks buying near term options that were way out of them money. I thought I was the king of the world. Then I did one trade and the stock went against me and I couldn't get out even for a loss. I turned that $40k into $0. I really only lost $5k, but it felt like I lost the $40k. Fortunately I wrote off the $5k before I even started. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tuwood - 2012-07-06 11:39 AM Wow. That kinda puts it all in perspective, doesn't it ? I'm a chicken . Buying a stock for a few hours/days and happy to sell for a few $. Hit it quick and go... (hey, that works in stocks, too...j/k) Watching the technical movements has proven to be as profitable as researching fundamentals...SO FAR. Buying & selling a particular coffee roasting co. has been a blast this morning. eta: grammartri42 - 2012-07-06 10:18 AM tuwood - 2012-07-06 11:13 AM You have "real" experience........... thx for your comments! You know, I'm coming to the same realization......it really is legalized gambling in many aspects. I've made and lost a lot of money on the markets. I've done everything from option spreads, straight puts/calls, writing puts/calls, and swing trading different equities. I've come to the realization that it's no different than going to vegas. Even if everything lines up exactly right it still seems to work out so I lose money. That being said, I love the leverage you get with options but I hate the huge losses you take at the onset with the bid/ask spread. I also hate the time decay aspect. So I've been swing trading the ultra leveraged ETF's UPRO & SPXU to long and short the SP500. I've had moderate success with these. They're most certainly not buy and hold type stocks though. Yep, there was a good friend of mine I worked with who took a $25k account and turned it into $0 in less than 5 days trading his "sure thing" options strategy. 7 or 8 years ago when I was really into options I took $5k and turned it into $40k in about three weeks buying near term options that were way out of them money. I thought I was the king of the world. Then I did one trade and the stock went against me and I couldn't get out even for a loss. I turned that $40k into $0. I really only lost $5k, but it felt like I lost the $40k. Fortunately I wrote off the $5k before I even started. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I am, by proffession. I've been in the industry since 1997. I work for a company that runs closed end mutual funds and institional money. I am one of the people who does execution on very large trades. I've worked for a hedge fund and on the floor of the CBOE too. I also do it personally and have done really well with it. It has it's ups and downs. The best advice I can give is find a strategy that works and stick with it. Straying from your strategy usually ends up in loss. Edited by Meulen 2012-07-06 12:06 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I'm a different type of trader than what it looks like you may be talking about. Maybe not. I buy stocks I like on a year long or more basis and hold til I don't like them anymore or I feel I can get a better return on something else. My guess is that doesn't match up with what you're talking about. I'm more of the slow and steady type I guess. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() My "strategy" (very crude at the moment, hence the " ") has been ; 1) look to buy on the upticks where the previous "downtick" trend has had LOWER than avg volume, 2) hold no positions past the trading day, 2) stay away from extended hours trading, 3) ride the wave up, selling on really high volumes that tend to show the peak for that up trend, 4) If I hit a certain 4 digit profit level, that's it, sell. I look for Betas of 2-3+ minimum. Rode GMCR up multiple times today, when all I heard was the mkt is down, down. It's almost criminal. I agree completely that strategy is 100% individual. Stay in your zone and execute or be executed. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() jgaither - 2012-07-06 1:21 PMI'm a different type of trader than what it looks like you may be talking about. Maybe not. I buy stocks I like on a year long or more basis and hold til I don't like them anymore or I feel I can get a better return on something else. My guess is that doesn't match up with what you're talking about. I'm more of the slow and steady type I guess. This is pretty much my strategy as well. That and maintaining a fairly diversified portfolio. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() jgaither - 2012-07-06 1:21 PM I'm a different type of trader than what it looks like you may be talking about. Maybe not. I buy stocks I like on a year long or more basis and hold til I don't like them anymore or I feel I can get a better return on something else. My guess is that doesn't match up with what you're talking about. I'm more of the slow and steady type I guess. You're wiser for doing that, I'm just wanting to aggressively increase a small brokerage acct. I'm much more of a fundamentalist than a technical chart reader by nature but lately watching charts has been more profitable for me. Edited by tri42 2012-07-06 5:11 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I dabble... But only with a 401k rollover account I set up in Scottrade. Stick to basics, but have found a consistent strategy. Took me about 3 years to say I can make consistent return on my trades. I am in and out and rarely sit on a position more than 1-2 weeks. Most of the time it is 72 hours or less. With FAZ or TZA it is always a same day trade. I have a watch list of about 100 stocks I watch and that has helped in narrowing the field and can speak with confidence when talking about them. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cardenas1 - 2012-07-06 6:32 PM I dabble... But only with a 401k rollover account I set up in Scottrade. Stick to basics, but have found a consistent strategy. Took me about 3 years to say I can make consistent return on my trades. I am in and out and rarely sit on a position more than 1-2 weeks. Most of the time it is 72 hours or less. With FAZ or TZA it is always a same day trade. I have a watch list of about 100 stocks I watch and that has helped in narrowing the field and can speak with confidence when talking about them. Those 2 listings have Beta's in -2 to -4 range... made out pretty good today, as would be expected ! I would call myself a semi-sloppy dabbler who is becoming less sloppy. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I am by profession as well. I work for a mutual fund and execute all our trades outside the US. I have traded everywhere from India to Ireland. I love it but unfortunately the whole industry sucks right now. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Well, what's this. TD sent me a msg saying since I have opened and closed 5 positions in 4 days that I am classified as a pattern day trader and must have at least $ 25k equity in my acct ? WTH ? Ok, so they want me to have a chance to lose an even BIGGER amount of $ in 5 minutes now ? Yes, I'm joking but still... I don't WANT to have a position overnight and I have ZERO impact on the market but it's ok for the folks with $ 100 million to manipulate the he[[ outa prices for their personal gain. Edited by tri42 2012-07-08 3:50 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Reading up pattern day traders and equity requirements...... |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tri42 - 2012-07-08 4:50 PMWell, what's this. TD sent me a msg saying since I have opened and closed 5 positions in 4 days that I am classified as a pattern day trader and must have at least $ 25k equity in my acct ? WTH ? Ok, so they want me to have a chance to lose an even BIGGER amount of $ in 5 minutes now ? Yes, I'm joking but still... I don't WANT to have a position overnight and I have ZERO impact on the market but it's ok for the folks with $ 100 million to manipulate the he[[ outa prices for their personal gain. Like some here, I am in the business for 15 years. Im a trader at an RIA and also run mutual funds. We trade large block a of ETFs, but as macro trend managers. Day trading is not a complete zero sum game, but close. In my honest opinion, unless you invest for longer term, it is hard to find consistent edge in trading, especially competing against large traders that have way more information than you and know what exactly is happening in the market, and can push it around. They can make it look like a good trade is setting up for you and turn it around in a heart beat. My only advice if you want to do this to have a plan on every trade, for profit AND for loss. You must have a defined game plan for how you trade, otherwise their is no probability working for you and you are simply guessing at that point. Good luck. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I trade stocks and ETFs. I've been doing this for about 10-years and have beat the S&P every year except 2011. Not bad considering that over 50 percent of my money is managed in 401ks and an annuity. I don't have much control other than picking a fund that rarely beats the S&P with those accounts. Anyway, I changed my strategy last year and started trading more frequently. a couple times it worked out. More often than not it hasn't. Like someone else in this thread mentioned...as a small time trader I just don't have the information that the large institutions do. also, the big guys will manipulate a stock and leave us small guys holding the bag. It sucks! Obviously, changing my strategy last year has not worked out to this point....but my average return over the last decade is still decent. I still have time to turn things around in 2012...I honestly believe that the market has been over valued and that's where I've been hurt. The market seems to be doing well in spite of a carpy economy. You know what is going to hit the fan sooner or later... |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ok.......so I've heard this a few times in this thread now. I am an institutional trader. My company manages roughly $8 billion dollars. I'd like to know what information you guys think I have that gives me an advantage? I'd also like to know what you think I'm doing manipulated stocks and letting the little guy holding the bag? I'd definitely argue to the contrary. I'd also argue its a disadvantage to manage that much money versus being able to be small and nimble. Seriously though, I'd like to hear what you guys think on this and hear some more details on why you think this way. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Meulen - 2012-07-08 9:42 PM Ok.......so I've heard this a few times in this thread now. I am an institutional trader. My company manages roughly $8 billion dollars. I'd like to know what information you guys think I have that gives me an advantage? I'd also like to know what you think I'm doing manipulated stocks and letting the little guy holding the bag? I'd definitely argue to the contrary. I'd also argue its a disadvantage to manage that much money versus being able to be small and nimble. Seriously though, I'd like to hear what you guys think on this and hear some more details on why you think this way. This is not towards you personally as I know that not ALL institutional traders operate the same. However, I do believe that there are some underhanded things that go on with large traders. Something that I believe that trader's do is run up the price/volume of a stock only to sell after the sheep have jumped in. I also believe a similar startegy is used to run down the price of a stock. As far as advantages, for one many institutions use super computers to make there trades. Often, buying and selling to realize only minimal gains. However, the volume/size of the trades is much more significant than for the small trader. Again, not YOU, but there is insider information that gets out there to the institutions. A major advantage is just the time a professional trader has to analyze the market. Personally, I do my research on the evenings and weekends. I can't do any of this while the market is open as I have a regular job. With as volitile as the market is anymore...this is a big advantage for the professional trader. Anyway, that is just a few things that come to mind but I know I could come up with more. Personally, I believe there is a lot of distrust of banking and wallstreet right now. Some might be misguided but much of it well deserved. It's easy for a small investor to have all kinds of theories as to what the institutions and banks are doing to minipulate the market. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Meulen - 2012-07-08 11:42 PM Ok.......so I've heard this a few times in this thread now. I am an institutional trader. My company manages roughly $8 billion dollars. I'd like to know what information you guys think I have that gives me an advantage? I'd also like to know what you think I'm doing manipulated stocks and letting the little guy holding the bag? I'd definitely argue to the contrary. I'd also argue its a disadvantage to manage that much money versus being able to be small and nimble. Seriously though, I'd like to hear what you guys think on this and hear some more details on why you think this way. So the BIG $ players can't maniplate/somewhat influence the market for personal gain in the very short term ? (and maybe this is making a case for another point) There's no way the answer is not a yes. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Meulen - 2012-07-08 10:42 PM Ok.......so I've heard this a few times in this thread now. I am an institutional trader. My company manages roughly $8 billion dollars. I'd like to know what information you guys think I have that gives me an advantage? I'd also like to know what you think I'm doing manipulated stocks and letting the little guy holding the bag? I'd definitely argue to the contrary. I'd also argue its a disadvantage to manage that much money versus being able to be small and nimble. Seriously though, I'd like to hear what you guys think on this and hear some more details on why you think this way. I think there's a perception, true or false, that big institutions are going to be in the know before little ole me sitting at my macbook at home. From an information standpoint I feel like I'm at a little bit of a disadvantage. I am speaking from a day trading standpoint where seconds can make the difference in losing versus winning. I do also agree that you are at a disadvantage in other areas because you have trading rules (whatever they're called) that most portfolios have to follow. x percentage in small cap, x percentage in energy etc... However, if I see the market is tanking I can dump everything into cash or go short on the indexes to ride the wave down. You have to bunker down and wait for it to come back. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ray- I'm not taking offense here, I'm honestly curious as to what the public thinks of institutions and how the market works. To put it simply, what you are referring to is not the big institutional players. You are referring to High Frequency players and hedge funds. They have the freedom to run up/down. However, you have an advantage against them being small. They are looling for the big players to do that too. Some do have supercomputers, but really I see them more as adding liquidity to the market than I do gaming. The computers aren't always right either, and again. It's harder for them to sniff out your orders being small. They are looking for patterns to show them there is a big player trying to get in or out. If they pick off your small order it's really no advantage to them. Sure, maybe they make a penny. But, you also got filled where you might not had otherwise and the trade overall is not enough to impact the market in most cases. Tri42/Ray- As an institutional player I cannot manipulate as you are referring. The funds mandates do not allow it. We are working with long term focussed funds. The point of these funds is not to let a trader loose to manipulate positions. It's to invest long term. When we get in, I can only buy. When we get out, I can only sell. There is no manipulation in between. The risk of that is too great and would not be accepted well by shareholders. It doesn't happen that way. Edited by Meulen 2012-07-09 10:50 AM |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tuwood - 2012-07-09 10:44 AM Meulen - 2012-07-08 10:42 PM Ok.......so I've heard this a few times in this thread now. I am an institutional trader. My company manages roughly $8 billion dollars. I'd like to know what information you guys think I have that gives me an advantage? I'd also like to know what you think I'm doing manipulated stocks and letting the little guy holding the bag? I'd definitely argue to the contrary. I'd also argue its a disadvantage to manage that much money versus being able to be small and nimble. Seriously though, I'd like to hear what you guys think on this and hear some more details on why you think this way. I think there's a perception, true or false, that big institutions are going to be in the know before little ole me sitting at my macbook at home. From an information standpoint I feel like I'm at a little bit of a disadvantage. I am speaking from a day trading standpoint where seconds can make the difference in losing versus winning. I do also agree that you are at a disadvantage in other areas because you have trading rules (whatever they're called) that most portfolios have to follow. x percentage in small cap, x percentage in energy etc... However, if I see the market is tanking I can dump everything into cash or go short on the indexes to ride the wave down. You have to bunker down and wait for it to come back. Absolutely, there are times when things go bad it may take me days or months to get out of something you can get out of in a second.
As far as information....that's kind of the game isn't it? The guy who does the best/most research wins. We have a little of an advantage as big companies come visit us update us on things. However, they are not allowed to say anthing that hasn't already come out on a newswire. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() btw.......GREAT CONVERSATION GUYS! I love hearing what people think of market structure. There are sooooooo many misconceptions out there right now. Especially, in light of the MBS's and revelations of bank hedging practices that have been in the news lately. I'm completely open if you guys have any questions for me. Feel free to shoot me a PM or something anytime. |
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