Hanson Brothers Marathon Method - no more than 16 miles for a long run

This concept was popularized by them about 5-6 years ago. 

Honestly, I don't think it will work for the majority of pure marathon runners. 

The Hanson team maxxes at 16ish for most of their long runs BUT, and it's a big BUT - 

They usually run 2x per day, and at peak, their lead runner Brian Sell, logged close to 140mpw in total weekly volume. Their runs were also pretty fast. 

A lot of folks read about their training and think "wow - I should reconsider my long runs and shorten them a lot!' which is frankly, terrible advice for marathon runners. For most AGers who are training under 70mpw (usually well under that), your marathon race day performance will correlate pretty well with both your total weekly mileage, but after that, the total number of 20-24 mile long runs you get in there.  For lower mileage runners (

If you're running 100+ miles per week, it almost doesn't matter what your long run is - that's the main issue with the Hanson team.It would be a bolder statement if they were running 50mpw and capping 16mile long runs, and still putting up world class results.

Also of note, IM marathon training is different than pure marathon training. There are similarities, but you shouldn't equate the two, as you're running significantly slower in the IM run than the standalone, which calls for a different training regiment (often with lower mileage, given the slower race pace and x-effects from bike leg fatigue.)

I for sure have never come close to my true marathon PRs when I cap my long runs at 15-16 miles. I know this since my half marathon training is usually tops at 16-17 miles, and I can't hold a candle to myself in the marathon when my long runs are 22-24 weekly.

Honestly, your post kind of scares me.  I've only run one marathon and am building on my second year of running (so I'm a complete beginner).  That said, I can't imagine running a marathon without running 30 miles prior to the marathon.  I know that goes contrary to what everyone says and all the literature, but that is my gut feel....for my one marathon I did only build up to 22 miles and did finish (with severe cramps).

I'm reading the Higdon, Marathon book now and will definitely make the Hanson Brothers book my next read.  I'll be curious to see what others think.

Please don't run 30 miles. There's a lot more that can go wrong than can go right after 3 hours, never mind 4 or 5 hours.

It may not work for pure marathon runners, but most likely for triathletes who are also adding on a long bike every week.

I've had good results with this method for many years with many athletes so I know it works as my N is much greater than 1.

Frank Shorter used to run 3x a day up at 8500 feet and logged almost 200 miles per week. I think there are a lot of ways to make this work. For a triathlete who is also swimming 4 hours a week and cycling around 8-10 hours per week for an ironman, cutting the run short and avoiding injury is not a bad thing.

Why are you anonymous? You don't have a name?

If anyone wants to read a Runner's World article about a guy who tried it...

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-255-13791-0,00.html

If you were to look at your season leading into the marathon, and I mean 30 weeks to the race, how many days a week did you run, on average. Usually your answer is tied to the frequency.

If you were to run say 3 days a week and it was 5 miles, 20 miles and 7 miles, that's a very nice 32 mile week.

If you were to run say 5 days a week and it was 5 miles, 16 miles, 8 miles, 12 miles, and then 3 miles, you'd have 34 miles, but I am betting you'd have a better marathon experience.

I'm not directing my next statement at you, but what I do see often is that athletes want to run a faster pace in the marathon then anything they did in training. Plain and simple this doesn't work.

I'd def agree that it probably works better for triathletes - with the bike volume, a big run like that would tank your workouts for the rest of the week. 

It's def working for your Colorado team though - props!

I like my anonymity online as well - I'm not enough of an expert to add anything with my identity.

I get that you are directing this towards folks on this site ie Triathletes, but I thought I would play Devils advocate.

What are Renato Canova's boys doing (way more than 16mi long runs) and I would say he has coached a greater number of way more succesful marathoners than Jack and Hansons combined.

What happens when my long run pace is 7:15/mi or quicker? That makes my long run less than 2 hrs.

A side note on the Hanson guys and girls. They go longer than than 16mi multiple times in a build. Hell thier key simulation is a 2-3mi w/up followed by 16mi at race pace then a few mi c/down. That is a least a 20 - 22mi run with the majority at race pace.

Like you said, there are many ways to skin a cat and you are coaching people who are running and swimming, but Jack and Hansons info i snot specific to triathletes which makes it a little iffy in my mind

The 7:15 pace is a good point. In the article they actually talk about an Elite marathoner who runs 25 miles in less than 3 hours and it still fits into their under 3 hours / no more than 16 mile approach.

This approach does work pretty well for triathletes actually. Nothing iffy about it.

Thanks on the CU team, but they don't race more than 10k and so there's no need to run more than 90 minutes or so.

I'll be N#2 at least... I'm slow but I used Mike's coaching to run a spring marathon and 16 miles was my longest run. I felt strong at the end of the mary and mile #26 was my fastest. I knocked an hour off a marathon I ran the prior Fall using a "Runner's World" plan with long runs of 20, 20, 22. (Granted I had some nutrition and pacing issues in the Fall, but just providing some real BT input to the topic of a triathlete training plan for a marathon.) 

This is a really interesting discussion, and it's discussions like these that keep me coming back to BT.  Different points of view, politely stated, with evidence backing it up.

A marathon is still a few years down the road- I want to make sure I can break 4 hours before I attempt it, if only so I don't have to run 10 hours a week in training- but I've found recently that I hit my goal times in the 10k and half-mary only after I'd run longer distances (8 miles and 15 miles, respectively) in training.  I think a lot of that was the mental aspect, which the OP seems to discount slightly, but I think is super-important.  In my PRs, I always did have, at the back of my mind, 'I ran slower in training, but a lot farther.' 

Keep the interesting comments coming!  And if similar comments could be had on bike fit, I would be a happy camper.

I followed the Hanson Brothers strategy years ago but my races always ended up in a fight, even before the race even started...

(Hanson Bros 2.jpg)

Your question about the 30wks pre-marathon is very interesting point, so I'll answer as guinea pig.  At 30wks pre I was in peak phase of Fink (30wk) Intermediate Program for my 1st IM (B2B Oct 29 in 13:14).  Post-IM I took 2 wks recovery & eased back into exercise with running ~3x/wk with some S/B. Admit to over-eating a bit over Holidays.  In Jan started in on wk 4 of 18 wk Higdon Intermediate 2 Plan with training paces based on 4hr goal time.  Plan has runs 5d/wk (no speedwork except prescribed miles at MP) plus 1d/wk of easy XRT. Peak weeks 45-50 MPW, but I did 4 20mi LR's (@10, 8,4,3 wks pre-race).  LR's typically were run on "tired legs" day after 8-10mi MP run.  Also raced very hilly (for me) HM in PR 1:52 @ 5wks pre-marathon.

Marathon was mid April in good conditions.  Flat course, temp mid-40's, wind 10-15mph, with (IMHO) decent hydration/fueling. I was running pretty even pacing & feeling OK  sl (1min) ahead of goal pace @ 21mi.  Then suddenly hit by persistent calf cramps that forced me to R:W.  My assumption is I ran out of fitness ~21mi (vs heat, dehydration, 'lytes, or low carbs).

BTW- Direct whatever statements at me you like.  Your thoughts are always much appreciated!!!  (Like maybe Fall IM/Spring mary  doesn't work for middle-age non-athlete )

I have read numerous articles you wrote and very much enjoy your approach to training. I find that I agree with just about everything so far.

This time, you have taken Daniels out of context. Yes, he does put a two way limit, 25-30% of weekly mileage, 30% being for middle distance and shorter as their mileage is lower. He also puts 2.5-3.0hrs time limit. Not 16mi as you indicate.

2.5-3.0hrs at elite runners pace, well do the math. It is well over 16mi. That is what I think you took out of context.

Yes, I have done 2:20-2:30 runs in prep for half marathons, they did come out 18mi or so. 

For an average AG-er I would put a limit of 2.5hrs or 20mi whichever is reached first or similar limit.

I do agree with you that anything over 3.0hrs is counterproductive. I would let the pace/ VDOT number or fitness level dictate that mileage limit.

Also 25-30% limit is not that hard limit for an average AG-er triathlete, running a low mileage triathlon running program. Keep in mind as you well know, average AG-er, triathlete, preparing for a say 10hr Ironman, runs on about 40-45mi/ week. That leaves only 10-11mi long run. That is severe undertraining for that distance, regardless of  the pace of that run.

Just my 2cents. I coach swimming and am student of triathlon. I read and research everything I can lay my hand on. I don't know it all and would love to be corrected. This above is pretty typical what I found with various different triathlon training models.

By the way, my Daniels running book is worn out from repeated reading........

Great discussion.

How are you determining that it was largely the long run and not total volume? I don't know all those plans, but see 25-30 mpw outside of the long run. This is what, roughly a pair of 4's and a pair of 9's? And also how are you determining that it was the long run that helped out the later marathons? Not that you had been running longer and were building on prior fitness built up from the first?

This might look like being devil's advocate here, but I've never liked that term. I try to look at things from different angles to get a better picture. I prefer discussion instead of provoking an argument, so hopefully that idea comes through. And the question is really for anyone, as many do seem to focus a lot on the long run. Some almost entirely so.

I think it's key to remember that IM marathon training is NOT the same as standalone marathon training.

You can get away with less volume in IM training on the run because

1) You will be running significantly slower than your standalone marathon time

2) You'll get more time on race day by having a good bike, thus you shouldn't zap your legs with big run training miles at the cost of bike training.

I haven't seen too many IM plans that ask for runs greater than 17-18 miles, but almost all the competitive marathon training plans (ok with the exception of Hansons) have that as a minimum long run distance.

While many of the main precepts between running and IM-run training are similar, there are enough differences that you definitely should not use them equally if you want maximal results on race day for either. This is a good example of where a triathlete who wants to get better at the IM-marathon run should NOT train like a pure marathon runner, contrary to the commonly spread advice that you should 'swim like a swimmer and run like a runner to get better'. 

You and I must be the oldest ones here...this is the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title.