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2012-11-06 8:15 AM

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Master
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Lake Norman, NC
Subject: My election plea

I'm not going to preach on whom you should vote for.  I do ask that when you vote and especially if you live in a state that has initiatives, measures, or propositions, that you consider this:

Many people in the US live with ideals and morals in mind that are shaped by their religion, a "book", and/or a belief system.  And that's perfectly fine.  But understand that millions of others do not share those exact same beliefs and morals.  That doesn't make them "wrong", only different from you.  For as much as your heart tells you that your beliefs are "correct", "right", "moral", even "mandated by God", please see that this is a nation conceived in liberty.  Liberty for ALL.  Especially those different from you.  It can be millions of others, thousands... even if it were just one single person - this country must have a foundation of laws that does not restrict for even that one different person.  Religion, gender, race, creed, ethnicity, sexual preference...  Our nation must be a nation of laws based on liberty for even the one individual who deserves the same rights as you and me.

Many people feel that we should be a nation of "majority rule".  That if 51% of people vote for a candidate, on an initiative, measure, or proposition that restricts the civil liberties, the rights for the other 49%, that it's OK.  Even if it were 99.9999% voting to enforce their belief structures on 0.0001% and restrict the rights of those few, I would still say that's wrong.  Of course their are limits.  I'm not promoting that we should protect the rights of someone who wishes to practice a religion of human sacrifice.  But within the secular (and continuously debated) laws of our land, simply respect others different from you and accept that they deserve the same rights as you.

I know this is difficult for many to read.  Your beliefs and your faith is strong in your heart and you want others to think and believe like you.  But that's what makes this country so great - we are the melting pot and viva la difference!  Your morals and beliefs are good.  Your religion is good.  YOU are good.  And that pertains to you.  But they are your beliefs and your beliefs alone.  Please do not try to force them on everyone else.  Respect others' rights to their lifestyles and beliefs.  Many people have fought and died to protect these rights for people very different than them.  Please consider that when voting for a candidate, measure, initiative, and/or proposition.

Thank you.  Preach mode, OFF.



2012-11-06 8:32 AM
in reply to: #4485572

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Champion
7347
5000200010010010025
SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: My election plea

Even if it were 99.9999% voting to enforce their belief structures on 0.0001% and restrict the rights of those few, I would still say that's wrong.

If you are talking about any of the rights as laid out in the constitution then I'd agree (that being said where is my fully automatic machine gun?  The 2nd amendment says I should be able to have one..)  However I suspect you are trying to refer to "rights" outside the scope of these.

With this I totally disagree.  That's basically saying people should get whatever they want.  We cannot disagree with anyone even if they don't want to be part of the system because otherwise we're bigots, or racists or homophobes or we hate women or dogs or cats or whatever... I guess it comes down to the definition of "rights".  If a law passed that truly infringed on a person's rights then I'd assume it would be brought up in the court system and then deemed unconstitutional.

So I ask this: If you do not vote on your beliefs (whether they be religious, political, emotional or intellectual) then what do you vote on?  It's a nation of opinions.  I have mine, you have yours.  We try to understand each others' position but at the ed of the day you will act on your beliefs and I on mine.



Edited by TriRSquared 2012-11-06 8:33 AM
2012-11-06 8:36 AM
in reply to: #4485572

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Pro
4675
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Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: My election plea
I'm not even religious but this OP rubs me the wrong way as somewhat of an attack (at least in part) on folks that may vote based on religious beliefs.  Don't confuse "privileges" with "rights" and if a law is passed that infringes on a "right" guaranteed by the Constitution it will be challenged in court.  You vote the way you want and I'll vote the way I want but please don't preach to me.
2012-11-06 8:42 AM
in reply to: #4485572

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Subject: RE: My election plea
A lot of what you said as TriS said can be up to interpitation, but as a recovering catholic I agree with what I think your intent is. While I don't think we agree on much we agree on this.
2012-11-06 8:44 AM
in reply to: #4485572

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Pro
4277
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Parker, CO
Subject: RE: My election plea

Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-11-06 7:15 AM

they are your beliefs and your beliefs alone.  Please do not try to force them on everyone else.  Respect others' rights to their lifestyles and beliefs.  

People vote because they want to force their beliefs on others...really?  NO, people vote because their values and opinions are more alligned with one candidate than the other.  And if you want to talk about forcing something on others...OBAMACARE!

2012-11-06 8:47 AM
in reply to: #4485572

Iron Donkey
38643
50005000500050005000500050002000100050010025
, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: My election plea
Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-11-06 8:15 AM

I'm not going to preach on whom you should vote for.  I do ask that when you vote and especially if you live in a state that has initiatives, measures, or propositions, that you consider this:

Many people in the US live with ideals and morals in mind that are shaped by their religion, a "book", and/or a belief system.  And that's perfectly fine.  But understand that millions of others do not share those exact same beliefs and morals.  That doesn't make them "wrong", only different from you.  For as much as your heart tells you that your beliefs are "correct", "right", "moral", even "mandated by God", please see that this is a nation conceived in liberty.  Liberty for ALL.  Especially those different from you.  It can be millions of others, thousands... even if it were just one single person - this country must have a foundation of laws that does not restrict for even that one different person.  Religion, gender, race, creed, ethnicity, sexual preference...  Our nation must be a nation of laws based on liberty for even the one individual who deserves the same rights as you and me.

Many people feel that we should be a nation of "majority rule".  That if 51% of people vote for a candidate, on an initiative, measure, or proposition that restricts the civil liberties, the rights for the other 49%, that it's OK.  Even if it were 99.9999% voting to enforce their belief structures on 0.0001% and restrict the rights of those few, I would still say that's wrong.  Of course their are limits.  I'm not promoting that we should protect the rights of someone who wishes to practice a religion of human sacrifice.  But within the secular (and continuously debated) laws of our land, simply respect others different from you and accept that they deserve the same rights as you.

I know this is difficult for many to read.  Your beliefs and your faith is strong in your heart and you want others to think and believe like you.  But that's what makes this country so great - we are the melting pot and viva la difference!  Your morals and beliefs are good.  Your religion is good.  YOU are good.  And that pertains to you.  But they are your beliefs and your beliefs alone.  Please do not try to force them on everyone else.  Respect others' rights to their lifestyles and beliefs.  Many people have fought and died to protect these rights for people very different than them.  Please consider that when voting for a candidate, measure, initiative, and/or proposition.

Thank you.  Preach mode, OFF.

I'm voting for BFD!!  But, please clean up that typo, 'k?



2012-11-06 8:48 AM
in reply to: #4485572

Iron Donkey
38643
50005000500050005000500050002000100050010025
, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: My election plea
Too many typos in this thread already.  Come on, people, you are educated, aintcha??
2012-11-06 8:52 AM
in reply to: #4485638

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: My election plea

The notion of "Liberty for All" including those different from me
has its roots and developed within the Judeo Christian tradition.

If I'm part of that tradition, then are you saying I should oppose
"Liberty for All" since it's essentially a religious concept?

 



Edited by dontracy 2012-11-06 8:53 AM
2012-11-06 8:59 AM
in reply to: #4485633

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Champion
10019
50005000
, Minnesota
Bronze member
Subject: RE: My election plea
BFD - I agree and I appreciate your point.
2012-11-06 9:04 AM
in reply to: #4485606

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Pro
5761
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Bartlett, TN
Subject: RE: My election plea
TriRSquared - 2012-11-06 8:32 AM

Even if it were 99.9999% voting to enforce their belief structures on 0.0001% and restrict the rights of those few, I would still say that's wrong.

If you are talking about any of the rights as laid out in the constitution then I'd agree (that being said where is my fully automatic machine gun?  The 2nd amendment says I should be able to have one..)  However I suspect you are trying to refer to "rights" outside the scope of these.

With this I totally disagree.  That's basically saying people should get whatever they want.  We cannot disagree with anyone even if they don't want to be part of the system because otherwise we're bigots, or racists or homophobes or we hate women or dogs or cats or whatever... I guess it comes down to the definition of "rights".  If a law passed that truly infringed on a person's rights then I'd assume it would be brought up in the court system and then deemed unconstitutional.

So I ask this: If you do not vote on your beliefs (whether they be religious, political, emotional or intellectual) then what do you vote on?  It's a nation of opinions.  I have mine, you have yours.  We try to understand each others' position but at the ed of the day you will act on your beliefs and I on mine.

 

x2

 

Don't confuse peoples rights with people behaviors.

2012-11-06 9:05 AM
in reply to: #4485614

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Pro
5761
50005001001002525
Bartlett, TN
Subject: RE: My election plea

Birkierunner - 2012-11-06 8:36 AM I'm not even religious but this OP rubs me the wrong way as somewhat of an attack (at least in part) on folks that may vote based on religious beliefs.  Don't confuse "privileges" with "rights" and if a law is passed that infringes on a "right" guaranteed by the Constitution it will be challenged in court.  You vote the way you want and I'll vote the way I want but please don't preach to me.

 

Agreed



2012-11-06 9:05 AM
in reply to: #4485638

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Master
2277
2000100100252525
Lake Norman, NC
Subject: RE: My election plea
1stTimeTri - 2012-11-06 9:47 AM

I'm voting for BFD!!  But, please clean up that typo, 'k?

Busted by the Grammar Police.  Another reason why I'm totally unelectable.

... I'm so ashamed.

2012-11-06 9:05 AM
in reply to: #4485606

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Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: My election plea
TriRSquared - 2012-11-06 8:32 AM

Even if it were 99.9999% voting to enforce their belief structures on 0.0001% and restrict the rights of those few, I would still say that's wrong.

If you are talking about any of the rights as laid out in the constitution then I'd agree (that being said where is my fully automatic machine gun?  The 2nd amendment says I should be able to have one..)  However I suspect you are trying to refer to "rights" outside the scope of these.

With this I totally disagree.  That's basically saying people should get whatever they want.  We cannot disagree with anyone even if they don't want to be part of the system because otherwise we're bigots, or racists or homophobes or we hate women or dogs or cats or whatever... I guess it comes down to the definition of "rights".  If a law passed that truly infringed on a person's rights then I'd assume it would be brought up in the court system and then deemed unconstitutional.

So I ask this: If you do not vote on your beliefs (whether they be religious, political, emotional or intellectual) then what do you vote on?  It's a nation of opinions.  I have mine, you have yours.  We try to understand each others' position but at the ed of the day you will act on your beliefs and I on mine.

+1

**edit** and I really want a fully automatic machine gun too (no sarc font)



Edited by tuwood 2012-11-06 9:06 AM
2012-11-06 9:06 AM
in reply to: #4485572

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Regular
1023
1000
Madrid
Subject: RE: My election plea
Democracy is just so flawed...
2012-11-06 9:07 AM
in reply to: #4485633

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Subject: RE: My election plea
rayd - 2012-11-06 6:44 AM

Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-11-06 7:15 AM

they are your beliefs and your beliefs alone.  Please do not try to force them on everyone else.  Respect others' rights to their lifestyles and beliefs.  

People vote because they want to force their beliefs on others...really?  NO, people vote because their values and opinions are more alligned with one candidate than the other.  And if you want to talk about forcing something on others...OBAMACARE!

Not speaking for BFD but only my impression of what he was trying to convery. I think he was referring to the initiatives and not the politicians like the one in Minnesota giving marriage rights to gays.

2012-11-06 9:11 AM
in reply to: #4485645

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Master
2277
2000100100252525
Lake Norman, NC
Subject: RE: My election plea
dontracy - 2012-11-06 9:52 AM

The notion of "Liberty for All" including those different from me
has its roots and developed within the Judeo Christian tradition.

If I'm part of that tradition, then are you saying I should oppose
"Liberty for All" since it's essentially a religious concept?

No.  I'm saying that if YOUR Judeo-Christian tradition calls for "liberty for all", ain't nothing wrong with that.  But someone else that has a tradition that calls for "change the laws so that everyone else who doesn't believe in my traditions doesn't get the same rights as me", that I have a preachy problem with.



2012-11-06 9:11 AM
in reply to: #4485677

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Subject: RE: My election plea
tuwood - 2012-11-06 7:05 AM
TriRSquared - 2012-11-06 8:32 AM

Even if it were 99.9999% voting to enforce their belief structures on 0.0001% and restrict the rights of those few, I would still say that's wrong.

If you are talking about any of the rights as laid out in the constitution then I'd agree (that being said where is my fully automatic machine gun?  The 2nd amendment says I should be able to have one..)  However I suspect you are trying to refer to "rights" outside the scope of these.

With this I totally disagree.  That's basically saying people should get whatever they want.  We cannot disagree with anyone even if they don't want to be part of the system because otherwise we're bigots, or racists or homophobes or we hate women or dogs or cats or whatever... I guess it comes down to the definition of "rights".  If a law passed that truly infringed on a person's rights then I'd assume it would be brought up in the court system and then deemed unconstitutional.

So I ask this: If you do not vote on your beliefs (whether they be religious, political, emotional or intellectual) then what do you vote on?  It's a nation of opinions.  I have mine, you have yours.  We try to understand each others' position but at the ed of the day you will act on your beliefs and I on mine.

+1

**edit** and I really want a fully automatic machine gun too (no sarc font)

Here ya go

2012-11-06 9:12 AM
in reply to: #4485680

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Master
2277
2000100100252525
Lake Norman, NC
Subject: RE: My election plea

gr33n - 2012-11-06 10:06 AM Democracy is just so flawed...

I would say difficult and ever-changing.  If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

2012-11-06 9:13 AM
in reply to: #4485697

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Champion
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SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: My election plea
crusevegas - 2012-11-06 10:11 AM

**edit** and I really want a fully automatic machine gun too (no sarc font)

Here ya go

Oh yes, I know all about that (I might even have one, you never know ).  Just making a silly point.

2012-11-06 9:16 AM
in reply to: #4485683

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Pro
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Twin Cities
Subject: RE: My election plea
crusevegas - 2012-11-06 9:07 AM

Not speaking for BFD but only my impression of what he was trying to convery. I think he was referring to the initiatives and not the politicians like the one in Minnesota giving marriage rights to gays.

There is no initiative on the ballot to "give marriage rights to gays" in Minnesota.

2012-11-06 9:18 AM
in reply to: #4485707

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Menomonee Falls, WI
Subject: RE: My election plea
It's my belief and tradition to be able to choose how to spend the money I earn. Where does this leave me?



2012-11-06 9:19 AM
in reply to: #4485699

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Madrid
Subject: RE: My election plea
Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-11-06 4:12 PM

gr33n - 2012-11-06 10:06 AM Democracy is just so flawed...

I would say difficult and ever-changing.  If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

A few questions for thought. Mostly rehtorical. Responses not required. 

Why are corporations or families or (insert relevant institution here) not democracies ?

How often is the majority really right ?

The US has the 'benefit' of for the most part being a 2 party system. See how well it works in most other countries that are largely not 2 party democracies. In a lot of cases you get a ruling majority of 20%. How does that work ? 

 

2012-11-06 9:24 AM
in reply to: #4485675

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Subject: RE: My election plea
jford2309 - 2012-11-06 9:05 AM

Birkierunner - 2012-11-06 8:36 AM I'm not even religious but this OP rubs me the wrong way as somewhat of an attack (at least in part) on folks that may vote based on religious beliefs.  Don't confuse "privileges" with "rights" and if a law is passed that infringes on a "right" guaranteed by the Constitution it will be challenged in court.  You vote the way you want and I'll vote the way I want but please don't preach to me.

 

Agreed

x3

One could paraphrase the OP as - "Let me infringe on your right to vote your beliefs because I don't agree with you and don't want you infringing on my privileges."

 

Edited to dodge the typo police patrolling this thread.



Edited by wingsfan 2012-11-06 9:26 AM
2012-11-06 9:25 AM
in reply to: #4485572


7

Subject: RE: My election plea

I vote morally before choosing to vote monetarily.

2012-11-06 9:26 AM
in reply to: #4485696

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: My election plea
Bigfuzzydoug - 

No.  I'm saying that if YOUR Judeo-Christian tradition calls for "liberty for all", ain't nothing wrong with that.  But someone else that has a tradition that calls for "change the laws so that everyone else who doesn't believe in my traditions doesn't get the same rights as me", that I have a preachy problem with.

What rights are you talking about exactly?

You seem to be saying that if my religiously informed opinion 
agrees with your opinion, then it's OK to vote my opinion.

However, if my religiously informed opinion is at odds
with your opinion, then it's not OK.

That seems to contradict your plea for "Liberty for All". 

If you believe in liberty for all, then you ought to support those
who vote their religiously based opinions, even if you don't agree with them. 

This gets to one of the issues of this campaign: the attack on religious liberty.

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