login
Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
-
No new posts
|
 2013-06-06 6:46 AM |
 Subject: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds |
| 2013-06-06 7:55 AM in reply to: DanielG |
Elite  4564    Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds What a sad country we are becoming. |
| 2013-06-06 8:49 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655  | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-06 8:56 AM |
| 2013-06-06 10:00 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... |
| 2013-06-06 10:13 AM in reply to: JoshR |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. |
| 2013-06-06 10:34 AM in reply to: DanielG |
Extreme Veteran 909 Westchester, NY | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds There was a time when I was paying my phone bill by check. I was so pissed at Verizon that I was issuing the check to "the at Verizon" I didn't realize I was that far ahead of the curve. |
| 2013-06-06 1:56 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. |
| 2013-06-06 2:05 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-06 2:06 PM |
| 2013-06-06 2:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? http://cryptome.org/klein-decl.htm https://www.eff.org/document/binney-declaration-support-plaintiffs-m... https://www.eff.org/document/drake-declaration-support-plaintiffs-mo... Or are whistleblowers not legit? What do you think that data center in Utah is for? My companies branch in SLC sold TONS of cabling for that. They had a record year based on that single job alone. Edited by JoshR 2013-06-06 2:32 PM |
| 2013-06-06 3:07 PM in reply to: JoshR |
Pro 5761 Bartlett, TN | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds I used to work for a cell phone company and have provided many records to law enforcement over the years. I am not sure what they mean by "records" ( I admit I did not read the link) but it may simply be a list of numbers called, which is not going to invade your privacy as much as people seem to think. If they spot a trend or something, then they will dive deeper into who is where and what! |
| 2013-06-06 3:11 PM in reply to: JoshR |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds OK, so they are collecting phone tolls........so what? Show me the "surveillance" you are talking about. Give me specific examples of how this information is being used to curtail any of your rights. Give me specific investigations where this information is being used to conduct "extensive sureveillance". I've got news for you, storing data is not an investigation. I don't doubt that the NSA and perhaps even other agencies are facilitating and showing phone companies how to store the data so they can retrieve it if needed....but it still takes a court order to tap a phone, or collect phone tolls, or get to the data. In the end.....I don't care, unless you can show me a document or a source that says they are collecting the information for any other reason than national security and criminal investigation, and doing that illegally....because there are certainly domestic crimes that could be investigated in the same manner. Brother.....that really is the least of your concern. If you want to see a real time, real world issue....send me your name and address.....give me about an hour and I'll send you back information about yourself that you likely forgot about. THAT'S the kind of information that you should be concerned about falling into the wrong hands.....who gives a rip who I talk to on the phone if I'm not doing anything illegal? |
| 2013-06-06 3:19 PM in reply to: jford2309 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by jford2309 I used to work for a cell phone company and have provided many records to law enforcement over the years. I am not sure what they mean by "records" ( I admit I did not read the link) but it may simply be a list of numbers called, which is not going to invade your privacy as much as people seem to think. If they spot a trend or something, then they will dive deeper into who is where and what! That is exactly right. Hell Josh, you are worried about the govt. collecting phone numbers while I stare at a machine that I can set up on the highway which reads your license plate as you go by, and tells me everything about you in less than 5 key strokes....including which other machines you passed and when. You're worried about the govt. storing your phone number? |
| 2013-06-06 3:28 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Also, Josh.....you may call the people in those documents "whistle blowers"....but unless you can show me where any of the data was used in any way other than the stated purpose of national security against terrorists, I will go ahead and call them what they are....traitors. There is a reason to keep some operations on a clandestine level.....national security is certainly one of them. You do have to admit that the threat against our country is real......the govt. didn't make it up. |
| 2013-06-06 3:49 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Oh I'm fully aware that phone numbers are mostly small fries. I'm also fully aware they probably have a system similar to the set up in Person of Interest (TV show) minus the whole predictive ability. Here is a good article that points to why this is an issue I think. http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/05/nsas-verizon-s... |
| 2013-06-06 3:57 PM in reply to: JoshR |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by JoshR Oh I'm fully aware that phone numbers are mostly small fries. I'm also fully aware they probably have a system similar to the set up in Person of Interest (TV show) minus the whole predictive ability. Here is a good article that points to why this is an issue I think. http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/05/nsas-verizon-s... You'd have to see the Court Order in order to make an informed statement about the intent of the data collection. That's sealed and classified. You can say that the "govt." ordered this....it still has to be signed by a Judge. |
| 2013-06-06 8:01 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? Prism. The whole thing does suck. We have turned into the USSR, listening, watching, telling others to turn in someone "suspicious". All in the name of security, our founders would be so proud of us. |
| 2013-06-06 8:46 PM in reply to: NXS |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/politics/nsa-internet-mining/index.ht... There you go. What coincidental timing. |
| 2013-06-06 9:13 PM in reply to: JoshR |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by JoshR http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/politics/nsa-internet-mining/index.ht... There you go. What coincidental timing. I don't see the abuse. Do you post things on facebook or Yahoo or whatever other social media there is that yo don't want others to see? I'm asking, seriously, because I don't use any of those social media sites so I don't know. Isn't it all viewable by alot of different people? Where is the expectation of privacy? If the NSA or whoever is "mining" the data to then look for patterns and possible connections to terrorist organizations I say so what? Is there a case of someone being arrested or otherwise violated by this "mining" for something other than terrorism? Again, I'm asking, I don't know. |
| 2013-06-06 9:19 PM in reply to: NXS |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by Left Brain Prism. The whole thing does suck. We have turned into the USSR, listening, watching, telling others to turn in someone "suspicious". All in the name of security, our founders would be so proud of us. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? I live in the same country you do.....I don't feel "watched" and don't feel threatened......ever. I'm trying to figure out who is being violated by any of this. I heard alot of whining after 9/11 and other attacks about our lack of doing something to prevent the attacks....and it appears we are now doing that, and here is more whining. Exactly who is being violated here, and how are they being violated? Can you tell me how your life is being impacted by any of this? I'm asking sincerely.....what is it about any of this that is affecting your day to day life? |
| 2013-06-06 9:45 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by Left Brain Prism. The whole thing does suck. We have turned into the USSR, listening, watching, telling others to turn in someone "suspicious". All in the name of security, our founders would be so proud of us. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? I live in the same country you do.....I don't feel "watched" and don't feel threatened......ever. I'm trying to figure out who is being violated by any of this. I heard alot of whining after 9/11 and other attacks about our lack of doing something to prevent the attacks....and it appears we are now doing that, and here is more whining. Exactly who is being violated here, and how are they being violated? Can you tell me how your life is being impacted by any of this? I'm asking sincerely.....what is it about any of this that is affecting your day to day life? Since I've seen you in the other thread I'm going to respond to your question with a question. Who is impacted by a national gun registry? |
| 2013-06-06 10:11 PM in reply to: NXS |
Pro 5761 Bartlett, TN | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by Left Brain Prism. The whole thing does suck. We have turned into the USSR, listening, watching, telling others to turn in someone "suspicious". All in the name of security, our founders would be so proud of us. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"?
I believe our founding fathers would have more problems with other issues in this country than cell phone privacy! |
| 2013-06-06 11:00 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Since I've seen you in the other thread I'm going to respond to your question with a question. Who is impacted by a national gun registry? Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by Left Brain Prism. The whole thing does suck. We have turned into the USSR, listening, watching, telling others to turn in someone "suspicious". All in the name of security, our founders would be so proud of us. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? I live in the same country you do.....I don't feel "watched" and don't feel threatened......ever. I'm trying to figure out who is being violated by any of this. I heard alot of whining after 9/11 and other attacks about our lack of doing something to prevent the attacks....and it appears we are now doing that, and here is more whining. Exactly who is being violated here, and how are they being violated? Can you tell me how your life is being impacted by any of this? I'm asking sincerely.....what is it about any of this that is affecting your day to day life? We all are. The Constitutional amendment says we can have guns.....period. Where does the Constitution say that you can have a facebook page, or a cell phone, or a twitter account? Yes, the Constitutional amendment (4th) says that you have the right to be safe from unlawful search and seizure......but I'm sorry, what you post on a social media site doesn't qualify....neither do your phone records that a company also stores.....they own them as well as you. I can pick up your trash from the curb and search it without a warrant (we do it ALL the time).....because you set it out there and therefore no longer have an expectation of privacy. You just think your phone number and facebook and twitter accounts are private....they most certainly are not in the majority of cases. If someone else can see them (including your provider) you are not protected. Your provider can give that information to anyone who asks......you simply gave up your privacy in that regard. Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-06 11:22 PM |
| 2013-06-07 6:57 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JoshR http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/politics/nsa-internet-mining/index.ht... There you go. What coincidental timing. I don't see the abuse. Do you post things on facebook or Yahoo or whatever other social media there is that yo don't want others to see? I'm asking, seriously, because I don't use any of those social media sites so I don't know. Isn't it all viewable by alot of different people? Where is the expectation of privacy? If the NSA or whoever is "mining" the data to then look for patterns and possible connections to terrorist organizations I say so what? Is there a case of someone being arrested or otherwise violated by this "mining" for something other than terrorism? Again, I'm asking, I don't know. Therein lies the problem. Folks thought the IRS was basically on the up and up too. But surprise, a few key words and you are a suspect, then a target. Left Brain, you are in law enforcement, you know as well as I do that as stated in Miranda, anything you say WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU, not to help you. I have seen prosecutors twist statements many times to help win their case. Until you have probable cause that a citizen is a threat, no wiretaps, data mining, or surveillance. Just leave them the hell alone. |
| 2013-06-07 7:08 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Since I've seen you in the other thread I'm going to respond to your question with a question. Who is impacted by a national gun registry? Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by Left Brain Prism. The whole thing does suck. We have turned into the USSR, listening, watching, telling others to turn in someone "suspicious". All in the name of security, our founders would be so proud of us. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? I live in the same country you do.....I don't feel "watched" and don't feel threatened......ever. I'm trying to figure out who is being violated by any of this. I heard alot of whining after 9/11 and other attacks about our lack of doing something to prevent the attacks....and it appears we are now doing that, and here is more whining. Exactly who is being violated here, and how are they being violated? Can you tell me how your life is being impacted by any of this? I'm asking sincerely.....what is it about any of this that is affecting your day to day life? We all are. The Constitutional amendment says we can have guns.....period. Where does the Constitution say that you can have a facebook page, or a cell phone, or a twitter account? Yes, the Constitutional amendment (4th) says that you have the right to be safe from unlawful search and seizure......but I'm sorry, what you post on a social media site doesn't qualify....neither do your phone records that a company also stores.....they own them as well as you. I can pick up your trash from the curb and search it without a warrant (we do it ALL the time).....because you set it out there and therefore no longer have an expectation of privacy. You just think your phone number and facebook and twitter accounts are private....they most certainly are not in the majority of cases. If someone else can see them (including your provider) you are not protected. Your provider can give that information to anyone who asks......you simply gave up your privacy in that regard. LB, when you get phone records do you have to get a warrant, or do you just flash a badge and the phone company gives you whatever you want? I have absolutely no issues with law enforcement, or the government having access to this type of data when there is probable cause. When it comes to social media, blogs, etc... I'm putting information out in the public domain so that is absolutely fair game. I also disagree with your premise that if anyone else can see your records (including your provider) that they are not protected. You can't legally listen to my conversation on the phone or voice mails without a warrant because it's legally protected. The carrier has access to the audio, if they want, but that doesn't give law enforcement the right to it. There's no question that law enforcement can use information like this to their advantage, but I can also argue that law enforcement would get a huge advantage if they put wires in every house in heavy crime areas. However, the ends don't justify the means. On a side note, I do find it ironic that the Republican's are the ones fighting for civil rights (1st, 2nd, 4th Amendment) and the democrats are the ones trying to trounce them in the name of "safety". |
| 2013-06-07 7:20 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Since I've seen you in the other thread I'm going to respond to your question with a question. Who is impacted by a national gun registry? Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by Left Brain Prism. The whole thing does suck. We have turned into the USSR, listening, watching, telling others to turn in someone "suspicious". All in the name of security, our founders would be so proud of us. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain The problem isn't just the phone records, it's that we know they are doing far more extensive surveillance of US citizens. We can't keep the Chinese from hacking into our top secret info and now we're just data mining the entire countries records and storing them in Utah. Gee what could go wrong here. Originally posted by JoshR Originally posted by Left Brain Surely the terrorists are dumb enough to use the same phone number repeatedly and not use something as simple as a Trac phone right? They probably are even dumb enough to keep on the same phone network with the same number instead of buying new disposable phones that run on say Verizon, then Sprint, then AT&T, then T-mobile. Of course there's no way to challenge this in court because there's no way to prove it was used against. It's not like the government would ever do something like this for political gain either, oh wait... Originally posted by JoshR What a sad country we are becoming.
Given that terrorist organizations use cell phones almost exclusively, and we know that those same organizations are constantly probing for weakness and places to launch an attack/recruit new members/solicit funds/etc., exactly how do you propose our agencies charged with stopping that threat go about it? So they get phone records, which by the way don't belong exclusively to you, and they look for patterns that they have learned may be a sign of terrorist activity. I say great! Thanks for looking out for us! I'll keep using my phone exactly as I always have. Oh, I know, I know.....I'm somehow giving up some part of my liberty by not caring if someone sees a phone number coming up repeatedly to other numbers of known terrorists/terrorist organizations.
Josh, I've sat on numerous wiretaps......it's really not as hard as you think to keep track of a KNOWN terrorists phone changing tactics.....our targets were drug dealers, but they changed phones as often as anyone else who has criminal intent....easy stuff. They're not using the records to keep track of known terrorists.....that's easy stuff. They're likely using the records the same way we used wiretaps....to identify people we didn't yet know about. Dude....if you are a known criminal, and a court order/search warrant has been issued to wiretap you......you go on and use all the Trac phones, etc. you want.....that's really easy to overcome. As much as you'd like to think differently....if you aren't involved in criminal activities nobody on the goverment's end gives a rats arse who you talk to or what you talk about. And from your comment about how sad we are becoming I take it you think this is something new? I have been conducting "extensive surveillance" on U.S. citizens for the better part of my career. Everything from phone taps to GPS's on vehicles, to trash pickups.....there is nothing new here. Before any wire goes up we also do "phone tolls"....and have been for decades. It's a collection of numbers called to a from a target....really basic stuff. With the advent of cell phones the information is much easier to get.....and like I said, the records belong to the phone company as well as the individual....if you don't like it, don't use a cell phone. Also, since you made the statement, can you source any of the "more extensive surveillance" that we apparently "know about"? I live in the same country you do.....I don't feel "watched" and don't feel threatened......ever. I'm trying to figure out who is being violated by any of this. I heard alot of whining after 9/11 and other attacks about our lack of doing something to prevent the attacks....and it appears we are now doing that, and here is more whining. Exactly who is being violated here, and how are they being violated? Can you tell me how your life is being impacted by any of this? I'm asking sincerely.....what is it about any of this that is affecting your day to day life? We all are. The Constitutional amendment says we can have guns.....period. Where does the Constitution say that you can have a facebook page, or a cell phone, or a twitter account? Yes, the Constitutional amendment (4th) says that you have the right to be safe from unlawful search and seizure......but I'm sorry, what you post on a social media site doesn't qualify....neither do your phone records that a company also stores.....they own them as well as you. I can pick up your trash from the curb and search it without a warrant (we do it ALL the time).....because you set it out there and therefore no longer have an expectation of privacy. You just think your phone number and facebook and twitter accounts are private....they most certainly are not in the majority of cases. If someone else can see them (including your provider) you are not protected. Your provider can give that information to anyone who asks......you simply gave up your privacy in that regard. LB, when you get phone records do you have to get a warrant, or do you just flash a badge and the phone company gives you whatever you want? I have absolutely no issues with law enforcement, or the government having access to this type of data when there is probable cause. When it comes to social media, blogs, etc... I'm putting information out in the public domain so that is absolutely fair game. I also disagree with your premise that if anyone else can see your records (including your provider) that they are not protected. You can't legally listen to my conversation on the phone or voice mails without a warrant because it's legally protected. The carrier has access to the audio, if they want, but that doesn't give law enforcement the right to it. There's no question that law enforcement can use information like this to their advantage, but I can also argue that law enforcement would get a huge advantage if they put wires in every house in heavy crime areas. However, the ends don't justify the means. On a side note, I do find it ironic that the Republican's are the ones fighting for civil rights (1st, 2nd, 4th Amendment) and the democrats are the ones trying to trounce them in the name of "safety". In this case Tony, no one is fighting for our civil rights. Both sides knew about this and allow it to happen. |
|
|
|
|
| ||||
|
| |||
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK