General Discussion Triathlon Talk » 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...) Rss Feed  
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2016-07-23 8:16 PM

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Subject: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
OK, I'm posting an "I wrote a book" thread as my 9106 post on beginner triathlete, I think i've been a good community member! Admins if this is inappropriate, feel free to delete.

I've often shared practice ideas here as well. Two of my fellow swim coaches and I recently published a book that is available on amazon or create space through our website (freshfreestyle.com). Three authors with 3 different styles of writing swim practices ranging from 500 to 3000+ yards.

The title is Fresh Freestyle: 99 Practices for Triathletes & Swimmers
It's available on Amazon here:
https://www.amazon.com/Fresh-Freestyle-Practices-Triathletes-Swimmer...

and since apparently PDF attachments can be virusladen, you can download a preview for the book down there in my sig.

We know triathletes will find a lot of ideas in this book that suits their needs & their personality.

I feel a little wierd about posting a self-promo here,but seeing as two noobies weirdly and co-incidentally published abook in the same week I did, I'll take my chances!

Check the book out, and I would love any feedback o the preview practices or on the book itself.

-Suzanne


Edited by AdventureBear 2016-07-23 8:23 PM


2016-07-24 8:12 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

With all due respect.  I thought BT was an open forum for discussion.  Since when did it become OK to sell your product?

Just sayin.

2016-07-24 8:18 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
Outside invoking the popcorn gif, can't we cut someone like adventure bear a pass here? She has contributed a bunch just like you !
2016-07-24 9:05 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Outside invoking the popcorn gif, can't we cut someone like adventure bear a pass here? She has contributed a bunch just like you !

This isn't about Suzanne or how many posts she has made.  

It's about turning an open discussion forum into a commercial sales platform.  I'm a distributor for two national products, maybe I should advertise those here because I've made a couple of posts that people seemed to appreciate?  Where do you draw the line?  It's OK for this person to hawk their product because they've made a bunch of informative posts, but this person can't?  If you let one person abuse the forum in this way, it will only be a mater of time before all you see in the forum are advertisements.  One of the things that has always been so appealing about BT is the lack of commercialism.  I guess times are changing?

On a side but related note, I have my website in my signature line, just as Suzanne does as well as countless other people.  That isn't "in your face."  If people choose to click thru to a signature line website, that is their choice.  Putting a blatant "in-your-face" post basically selling your book, product, or service is taking advantage of your position in an open forum designed to provide information to fellow athletes.

Just my humble two cents.

2016-07-24 9:34 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Outside invoking the popcorn gif, can't we cut someone like adventure bear a pass here? She has contributed a bunch just like you !

This isn't about Suzanne or how many posts she has made.  

It's about turning an open discussion forum into a commercial sales platform.  I'm a distributor for two national products, maybe I should advertise those here because I've made a couple of posts that people seemed to appreciate?  Where do you draw the line?  It's OK for this person to hawk their product because they've made a bunch of informative posts, but this person can't?  If you let one person abuse the forum in this way, it will only be a mater of time before all you see in the forum are advertisements.  One of the things that has always been so appealing about BT is the lack of commercialism.  I guess times are changing?

On a side but related note, I have my website in my signature line, just as Suzanne does as well as countless other people.  That isn't "in your face."  If people choose to click thru to a signature line website, that is their choice.  Putting a blatant "in-your-face" post basically selling your book, product, or service is taking advantage of your position in an open forum designed to provide information to fellow athletes.

Just my humble two cents.




To be honest...I saw two other people post book posts, no moderator intervention, and if they can, why can't I? BT has lost a lot of it's active discussion that I enjoyed contributing to in the past, which I find disappointing...but I'd also be disappointed at not taking an opportunity to post about our book when two others had front page news about theirs.

Also, I reasoned (and i'm not trying to justify it to you or anyone else, just being honest about why I decided to post)... not many people write books, as far as I know BT hasn't written a book of swim practices & therefore not competing with them. It's not like people post new books every day on the forums.

Maybe selfish, maybe helpful, dunno. Let's call it my inapproprate post for the year.

I've emailed Ron to inquire about advertising rates as well.

Edited by AdventureBear 2016-07-24 9:50 PM
2016-07-25 5:33 AM
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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Originally posted by AdventureBear

To be honest...I saw two other people post book posts, no moderator intervention, and if they can, why can't I? BT has lost a lot of it's active discussion that I enjoyed contributing to in the past, which I find disappointing...but I'd also be disappointed at not taking an opportunity to post about our book when two others had front page news about theirs.

Doesn't this kind of prove my point?

"If you let one person abuse the forum in this way, it will only be a mater of time before all you see in the forum are advertisements."

Suzanne, this truly isn't about you.  I share your belief that all triathletes should learn how to swim properly.  This is about the principal.  This is about a discussion forum in which triathletes young and old, novice thru experienced can come and share experiences, ask questions, and seek information.  That information has always been offered at no charge.  Not anymore, as now we are beginning to see advertisements.  "I have your answers, just pay your pennies."

As to moderator intervention, I haven't seen much evidence of moderators in months.  That makes it right?  I share your disappointment with the decline in BT forum participation.  So the answer to improve participation is to turn the forum into a commercial?  One of my biggest fears with respect to BT is that one day, we will go to beginnertriathlete.com and find "Server not found."  Turning the forum into an advertising platform is merely going to serve to speed the decline and ultimate demise of BT.

ETA: On that note, I will step down off of my soap box and return to relative obscurity.



Edited by k9car363 2016-07-25 5:55 AM


2016-07-25 6:12 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by AdventureBear

To be honest...I saw two other people post book posts, no moderator intervention, and if they can, why can't I? BT has lost a lot of it's active discussion that I enjoyed contributing to in the past, which I find disappointing...but I'd also be disappointed at not taking an opportunity to post about our book when two others had front page news about theirs.

Doesn't this kind of prove my point?

"If you let one person abuse the forum in this way, it will only be a mater of time before all you see in the forum are advertisements."

Suzanne, this truly isn't about you.  I share your belief that all triathletes should learn how to swim properly.  This is about the principal.  This is about a discussion forum in which triathletes young and old, novice thru experienced can come and share experiences, ask questions, and seek information.  That information has always been offered at no charge.  Not anymore, as now we are beginning to see advertisements.  "I have your answers, just pay your pennies."

As to moderator intervention, I haven't seen much evidence of moderators in months.  That makes it right?  I share your disappointment with the decline in BT forum participation.  So the answer to improve participation is to turn the forum into a commercial?  One of my biggest fears with respect to BT is that one day, we will go to beginnertriathlete.com and find "Server not found."  Turning the forum into an advertising platform is merely going to serve to speed the decline and ultimate demise of BT.

ETA: On that note, I will step down off of my soap box and return to relative obscurity.




Scott, I get your point and 99.99% agree with it.

That being said, I think there are posters, like Suzanne, through their contributions over the years, should be granted some leeway because it's only good for the forum, which IMO is shriveling up because knowledgeable people do not post anymore.

Let's go to another extreme. Member X who has been contributing here for years is perceived to be knowledgeable on topic Y. Now you don't have to agree his knowledge is valuable/correct but let's just say most people perceive him as knowledgeable in the field.

He posts a link to some outside work his is doing in his field. Let's say he has some commercial interest in this work

If people jump on him for being a shill, what is the motivation for him to bring this information to the posters ?

Yes, you are right, there are extremes and defining the line is hard, but I do think you have to cut some people some slack. A first time poster pimping his book should be called out by the members if it's shilling. I don't think many people will define what Suzanne posted as shilling.

But I also think that discussing how/when to draw the line is important and you have done that. Thanks



2016-07-25 6:37 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Personally, I've been lap swimming for 16 years with no Masters class or coach. I could use some new workouts and Suzanne is someone I feel I "know" from her contributions on this board. 

I get what your saying about 3 people selling stuff in one week but if it is not something I want to read about I don't open the thread. 

2016-07-25 7:42 AM
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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Thanks AB.  I will check it out.  I would not have learned about your book any other way.  Writing a book is a huge accomplishment.  Congratulations.

 

TW



Edited by tech_geezer 2016-07-25 7:43 AM
2016-07-25 8:04 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by AdventureBear

To be honest...I saw two other people post book posts, no moderator intervention, and if they can, why can't I? BT has lost a lot of it's active discussion that I enjoyed contributing to in the past, which I find disappointing...but I'd also be disappointed at not taking an opportunity to post about our book when two others had front page news about theirs.

Doesn't this kind of prove my point?

"If you let one person abuse the forum in this way, it will only be a mater of time before all you see in the forum are advertisements."

Suzanne, this truly isn't about you.  I share your belief that all triathletes should learn how to swim properly.  This is about the principal.  This is about a discussion forum in which triathletes young and old, novice thru experienced can come and share experiences, ask questions, and seek information.  That information has always been offered at no charge.  Not anymore, as now we are beginning to see advertisements.  "I have your answers, just pay your pennies."

As to moderator intervention, I haven't seen much evidence of moderators in months.  That makes it right?  I share your disappointment with the decline in BT forum participation.  So the answer to improve participation is to turn the forum into a commercial?  One of my biggest fears with respect to BT is that one day, we will go to beginnertriathlete.com and find "Server not found."  Turning the forum into an advertising platform is merely going to serve to speed the decline and ultimate demise of BT.

ETA: On that note, I will step down off of my soap box and return to relative obscurity.




Scott, I get your point and 99.99% agree with it.

That being said, I think there are posters, like Suzanne, through their contributions over the years, should be granted some leeway because it's only good for the forum, which IMO is shriveling up because knowledgeable people do not post anymore.

Let's go to another extreme. Member X who has been contributing here for years is perceived to be knowledgeable on topic Y. Now you don't have to agree his knowledge is valuable/correct but let's just say most people perceive him as knowledgeable in the field.

He posts a link to some outside work his is doing in his field. Let's say he has some commercial interest in this work

If people jump on him for being a shill, what is the motivation for him to bring this information to the posters ?

Yes, you are right, there are extremes and defining the line is hard, but I do think you have to cut some people some slack. A first time poster pimping his book should be called out by the members if it's shilling. I don't think many people will define what Suzanne posted as shilling.

But I also think that discussing how/when to draw the line is important and you have done that. Thanks






I pretty much agree totally with Marc's points except that I only agree with Scott about 53.82% on this subject........

I appreciate the link to swim-related training and would have never found it without Suzanne posting in TT.

2016-07-25 8:44 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Outside invoking the popcorn gif, can't we cut someone like adventure bear a pass here? She has contributed a bunch just like you !

This isn't about Suzanne or how many posts she has made.  

It's about turning an open discussion forum into a commercial sales platform.  I'm a distributor for two national products, maybe I should advertise those here because I've made a couple of posts that people seemed to appreciate?  Where do you draw the line?  It's OK for this person to hawk their product because they've made a bunch of informative posts, but this person can't?  If you let one person abuse the forum in this way, it will only be a mater of time before all you see in the forum are advertisements.  One of the things that has always been so appealing about BT is the lack of commercialism.  I guess times are changing?

On a side but related note, I have my website in my signature line, just as Suzanne does as well as countless other people.  That isn't "in your face."  If people choose to click thru to a signature line website, that is their choice.  Putting a blatant "in-your-face" post basically selling your book, product, or service is taking advantage of your position in an open forum designed to provide information to fellow athletes.

Just my humble two cents.

I agree with you for the most part.  I just look at in this light....you, Suzanne, Don, Shane, Ben and any of the coaches who regularly offer up free advice can take back a little (for lack of a better expression) by posting a thread like AB did.  I took it more as a hey I'm excited to say I wrote a book.  In that sense to me post counts matter #.  If it was continually hawking a product by any single person I'd be up on the soap box with you.  IDK, interesting topic.  I think at the end of the day AB made a class move by asking Ron about advertising. 

 



2016-07-25 9:03 AM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano


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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
I've seen heavy contributors in other communities get banned for a single post like this which I thought was extreme without warning since many have shared a great wealth of knowledge and have helped me. I don't mind these things being mentioned naturally mid-conversation or including a link to your product in your signature but I agree starting threads or aggressively pushing your product in threads would become distracting. Possibly reviews in a review section might be a good avenue where people are actively seeking info on products.
2016-07-25 10:00 AM
in reply to: runtim23

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
Originally posted by runtim23

I've seen heavy contributors in other communities get banned for a single post like this which I thought was extreme without warning since many have shared a great wealth of knowledge and have helped me. I don't mind these things being mentioned naturally mid-conversation or including a link to your product in your signature but I agree starting threads or aggressively pushing your product in threads would become distracting. Possibly reviews in a review section might be a good avenue where people are actively seeking info on products.


Great comment...would you like to review the book for us and post about it in the review section here on BT?

Also...you all know that guy...Gary Hall, Sr. from the race club? I remember his first post here in BT. Nobody knew who he was. His first post was self promoting his product. He got massively flamed for it...nobody knew who he was and people were really pissed at him.

He took the comments to heart, and then began posting educational threads in the forum and people realized that they liked what he had to share and was knowledgeable about swimming and had something valuable to offer.

I did the same thing but in reverse.
2016-07-25 11:06 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Ironic that Suzanne, who was an active BT participant even before she got into coaching, would draw criticism while Tom Demerly was openly welcomed, even though he was literally being paid to "participate" in the forums by his former employer who just happened to be a BT advertiser.

When I questioned the objectivity and transparency of that situation I was roundly chastised both by other members and by the administrators.    

Somewhat ironically, Tom disappeared from BT a short time later when he changed jobs and was no longer being paid to be here.

Suzanne has given away tons of free & helpful advice here over the years.  Is some of it self-serving to enhance her "brand" as a coach?  Sure, but she's always been upfront and ethical in how she has handled things.

Mark   

 

2016-07-25 11:10 AM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Originally posted by RedCorvette

Ironic that Suzanne, who was an active BT participant even before she got into coaching, would draw criticism while Tom Demerly was openly welcomed, even though he was literally being paid to "participate" in the forums by his former employer who just happened to be a BT advertiser.

When I questioned the objectivity and transparency of that situation I was roundly chastised both by other members and by the administrators.    

Somewhat ironically, Tom disappeared from BT a short time later when he changed jobs and was no longer being paid to be here.

Suzanne has given away tons of free & helpful advice here over the years.  Is some of it self-serving to enhance her "brand" as a coach?  Sure, but she's always been upfront and ethical in how she has handled things.

Mark   

 

as far as I can recall, tom never tried to sell things directly.  that seems to be the rub to most people.

2016-07-25 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

BT owes a lot to Suzanne over the years.  You are correct, our moderation isn't as 'strict' as it's been over the years.  We got castigated a lot on our moderation policies in the past...we loosened up a little bit and widened the gray area as everything is not cut and dry.  I still pull plenty of posts of first time posters trying to sell something.  All you have to do is hit the 'mark as spam' button and I take a look at it an make a decision.

As long as Suzanne isn't spamming the forums with this book, it's cool.  One post about it is fine.

*Edit  Honestly, if you look at the posts where the author or inventor or person selling the a relevant triathlon product posts...most of them don't receive any views or replies...it quickly gets buried and is completely forgotten.  No harm.



2016-07-25 12:28 PM
in reply to: Ron

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
Thanks, Suzanne! I'm not going to debate the ethics, I'm just glad to have seen this. I'll download the preview when I'm not on a work computer.
2016-07-25 1:14 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)
Originally posted by k9car363
  That information has always been offered at no charge.  Not anymore, as now we are beginning to see advertisements.  "I have your answers, just pay your pennies."


Pretty much everything I wrote about in my section of the book is already published here, and is usually the case for many authors who first write, blog or post about their area in forums like this, then consolidate the material and publish. Usually what Ive written about here is in much more detail since we kept each practice to 1 page for the book.
2016-07-25 1:34 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

For what it's worth, I've always appreciated your input, Suzanne, as you clearly are a talented athlete who likes to help people. You mentioning a book that you wrote doesn't come off as offensive to me at all. If someone who never participates in the forum pops in and tries to sell something, yea that's lame. 

 

2016-07-26 6:19 AM
in reply to: Ron

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Originally posted by Ron

BT owes a lot to Suzanne over the years.  You are correct, our moderation isn't as 'strict' as it's been over the years.  We got castigated a lot on our moderation policies in the past...we loosened up a little bit and widened the gray area as everything is not cut and dry.  I still pull plenty of posts of first time posters trying to sell something.  All you have to do is hit the 'mark as spam' button and I take a look at it an make a decision.

As long as Suzanne isn't spamming the forums with this book, it's cool.  One post about it is fine.

*Edit  Honestly, if you look at the posts where the author or inventor or person selling the a relevant triathlon product posts...most of them don't receive any views or replies...it quickly gets buried and is completely forgotten.  No harm.

And with the voice from on high, the matter is settled.

I humbly stand corrected.

Thank you Ron for jumping in.

2016-07-26 9:03 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: 99 Freestyle Practices for Triathletes (aka, I wrote a book...)

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by AdventureBear

To be honest...I saw two other people post book posts, no moderator intervention, and if they can, why can't I? BT has lost a lot of it's active discussion that I enjoyed contributing to in the past, which I find disappointing...but I'd also be disappointed at not taking an opportunity to post about our book when two others had front page news about theirs.

Doesn't this kind of prove my point?

"If you let one person abuse the forum in this way, it will only be a mater of time before all you see in the forum are advertisements."

Suzanne, this truly isn't about you.  I share your belief that all triathletes should learn how to swim properly.  This is about the principal.  This is about a discussion forum in which triathletes young and old, novice thru experienced can come and share experiences, ask questions, and seek information.  That information has always been offered at no charge.  Not anymore, as now we are beginning to see advertisements.  "I have your answers, just pay your pennies."

As to moderator intervention, I haven't seen much evidence of moderators in months.  That makes it right?  I share your disappointment with the decline in BT forum participation.  So the answer to improve participation is to turn the forum into a commercial?  One of my biggest fears with respect to BT is that one day, we will go to beginnertriathlete.com and find "Server not found."  Turning the forum into an advertising platform is merely going to serve to speed the decline and ultimate demise of BT.

ETA: On that note, I will step down off of my soap box and return to relative obscurity.

Scott, I get your point and 99.99% agree with it. That being said, I think there are posters, like Suzanne, through their contributions over the years, should be granted some leeway because it's only good for the forum, which IMO is shriveling up because knowledgeable people do not post anymore. Let's go to another extreme. Member X who has been contributing here for years is perceived to be knowledgeable on topic Y. Now you don't have to agree his knowledge is valuable/correct but let's just say most people perceive him as knowledgeable in the field. He posts a link to some outside work his is doing in his field. Let's say he has some commercial interest in this work If people jump on him for being a shill, what is the motivation for him to bring this information to the posters ? Yes, you are right, there are extremes and defining the line is hard, but I do think you have to cut some people some slack. A first time poster pimping his book should be called out by the members if it's shilling. I don't think many people will define what Suzanne posted as shilling. But I also think that discussing how/when to draw the line is important and you have done that. Thanks

Obviously I can't be objective regarding Suzanne, and even though Ron has pretty much provided the final word on the topic, I'd still like to weigh in.

I agree with Marc, and think he said it very well, but I also agree with Scott's general concern.  It's not a black and white issue of a person either misusing the forums to hawk their products or limiting their interactions to only provide free advice.  There's an entire continuum between the two.  Sometimes, like in this case of Suzanne (or if Shane, Marc, Ben C, Scott, etc chose to share something new that they're offering for sale) it shouldn't be very controversial, as they've all made hundreds or thousands of posts providing free help for the one made that leaned towards being advertising.  The other end of the spectrum is pretty clear too.  As Ron said, when a new user posts information about their products or services for sale as their first post, it either gets pulled, or we ignore it, and it quickly fades into obscurity.

I don't think the middle grey area is in the people who've only made a hundred helpful posts before posting something that promotes their product or service.  Most people show their true colors right from the start, either contributing or trying to take.  Emilio of De Soto is an example of someone with something to sell, who rarely posts here, yet doesn't try to, and instead always provides helpful advice without pitching anything.  The grey area is the person who would regularly create threads to start a discussion that is intended to nudge people towards their company.  For example, if I posted regularly to "brag up" successful performances by my athletes under the guise of discussing race execution, it's really a thinly veiled advertisement to encourage people to come to me for coaching.  Tom Demerly's name was brought up, so I'll use him as an example too. (By the way, I'm not picking on Tom.  He was transparent in saying that he was paid to be here.  For me personally, transparency is respectable.)  In my opinion, he occasionally strayed into this area.  Sometimes people attempt it, but aren't as subtle as Tom was.  I don't recall any instances here, but I've seen a few on ST where people attempted it, and got flamed very badly by other users.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm glad it's something that Ron keeps an eye on, but for the most part, the community will do a pretty good job of policing it on it's own, even in those grey areas.

 



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