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2007-02-01 1:40 PM

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Champion
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Subject: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

For some reason global warming has been all over the news again. From what I gather, there seems to be general consensus in the scientific community that global warming is happening to some degree (no pun intended). There does not seem to be any consensus on whether or not we humans are the cause of global warming.

I'm offer a couple of laymen's observations:

Based on ice core samples taken from various places around the globe, the planet's weather is cyclical and we have gone through several warming and coolings. So then, isn't global warming inevitable?

I guess the theory goes that we humans are causing this to happen faster than it would happen if there weren't 5 billion little warm-blooded CO2 producing creatures on the planet and many of them driving automobiles that compound the problem.

IF this is true, what exactly are we gonna do about it? Limit the birth rate to be less than or equal to the death rate? Eliminate all automobiles? Personally, I'd love this! We could all drive bikes to/from work and to the mall….but I don't think most people are willing to do this. And I ain't gonna be the only one….

I guess I have always been a little irritated at people who bring problems with no solutions. If global warming is caused by humans, what are we supposed to do about it? Turn off the kitchen lights when no one is in the kitchen? Hard to see that making a difference when there are 5 billion people on this planet - each doing their own thing and having different priorities in life.

~Mike



2007-02-01 1:47 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
why not just bump this other thread that you started where you said essentially the same things?

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

.
2007-02-01 2:33 PM
in reply to: #675806

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

jimbo - 2007-02-01 1:47 PM why not just bump this other thread that you started where you said essentially the same things? http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp... .

 

Well, that was back in September…the planet is warmer now.

Good memory though!

2007-02-01 2:55 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

I've given up and will just go along with the majority because I don't feel like going out and getting a degree in meteorology.  In just the last few weeks I've seen very reputable sounding individuals say that any professional weatherperson who denies humankind's role in global warming shouldn't be certified.  I've seen other professionals saying only idiots and laymen really think that man is having a significant impact on the overall global climate.

My biggest doubt about man's role is when folks say "it's the hottest summer since 1904" or something to that effect... well then, what was going on then that made things so hot?   Not that there's any harm in buying a car that actually finds it's way into the 20's for Highway MPG.

bts

2007-02-01 2:57 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

Well, California is again leading the way in the fight against global warming.  Latest news is a bill hitting the floor to ban.............. incandescent light bulbs.  Our tax dollars at work

2007-02-01 3:20 PM
in reply to: #675785

Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
>>"There does not seem to be any consensus on whether or not we humans are the cause of global warming."

So the report by the world-wide Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (2,500 scientists from 130 countries) saying that it's a 90%% probability that human activity was the primary cause of warming in the past 50 years coud be defined as what? A wild assed guess?

scott


2007-02-01 3:22 PM
in reply to: #675911

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 2:57 PM

Well, California is again leading the way in the fight against global warming.  Latest news is a bill hitting the floor to ban.............. incandescent light bulbs.  Our tax dollars at work

 

Wow. Unbelievable. I don't know anything about meteorology but as an electrical engineer, I do know something about incandescent light bulbs.


For instance…do you know how real men it takes to change a light bulb? None, real men aren't afraid of the dark!

An incandescent light bulb uses about 75 watts. An electric clothes dryer uses 6,000 watts! If people used the clothes line (solar power) instead of the electric dryer they could save a significant amount of energy.

 

~Mike

2007-02-01 3:26 PM
in reply to: #675940

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
Rogillio - 2007-02-01 3:22 PM

An incandescent light bulb uses about 75 watts. An electric clothes dryer uses 6,000 watts! If people used the clothes line (solar power) instead of the electric dryer they could save a significant amount of energy.

 

A-HA!  What you have failed to factor in, is the extra use of irons due to wrinkley clothes, and the loss of the clothes fluffiness factor.

 

2007-02-01 3:31 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
Plus all the static electricity dryers generate.

Edited by drewb8 2007-02-01 3:32 PM
2007-02-01 3:36 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
actually, lighting accounts for a not insignificant portion of overall energy use in the average household. so yes, turning off the lights will help. and i don't see how getting rid of incandescent lights is a stupid thing to do if it reduces energy consumption and cuts down on people's electricity bills (more money to buy tri gear!). that means that your tax dollars will also go further by replacing all those bulbs in government buildings. plus, these other types of bulb last longer, and who likes having to replace light bulbs? more money saved for tri gear!

here's a good article on lighting, light bulbs, and energy consumption:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5128478.stm

do you air dry your exercise clothes? way to go! you're already on your way!

as far as the comment about people not offering solutions to global warming, that's just not true. sure, there's no one single solution the same way that there's no one single source of the problem. google "global warming solution" and you'll find plenty of ideas. there's also a load of money to be made in R&D for alternative and more efficient energy.

here's a simple question. what has worse consequences? you being right about global warming not being real, but we still take steps to try and cut down on energy consumption and pollution and increase the use of renewable energy? or you being wrong about global warming not being real, and we don't do anything because really, what can one person do?
.

Edited by jimbo 2007-02-01 3:53 PM
2007-02-01 4:12 PM
in reply to: #675968

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

jimbo - 2007-02-01 1:36 PM actually, lighting accounts for a not insignificant portion of overall energy use in the average household. so yes, turning off the lights will help.

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents

and i don't see how getting rid of incandescent lights is a stupid thing to do if it reduces energy consumption and cuts down on people's electricity bills (more money to buy tri gear!).

Yeah, but I look like crap in my tri gear when lit by flourescent lighting.  I'm much better looking in incandescent light.

 



2007-02-01 4:22 PM
in reply to: #676002

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:12 PM

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents



Just to play devils advocate since I haven't heard about this proposal yet - 17w fluorescent vs. 60w incadescent = less energy.

On the downside, just think of the black market for incadescent bulbs that will start up.
2007-02-01 4:27 PM
in reply to: #676012

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
drewb8 - 2007-02-01 2:22 PM
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:12 PM

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents

Just to play devils advocate since I haven't heard about this proposal yet - 17w fluorescent vs. 60w incadescent = less energy. On the downside, just think of the black market for incadescent bulbs that will start up.

jimbo - 2007-02-01 1:36 PM actually, lighting accounts for a not insignificant portion of overall energy use in the average household. so yes, turning off the lights will help.

 

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents

2007-02-01 4:28 PM
in reply to: #676012

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

I'm pretty sure WalMart is putting fluorescents in all their stores. Saves beaucoup.

The government required gas to go leadless due to pollution issues. One could argue that greater electrical consumption due to using incandescents will burn more fossil fuels and create more pollution than if we went fluorescent. So, the good of the whole outweights your and my good of looking better in incandescent light.

Transfat bans - initially I thought it was a ban to save people from themselves. Then it occurred to me that parents are feeding this stuff to their kids - Happy Meal anyone? - and that children have a right not to be fed transfats, even if their parents are too lax or indifferent or whatever to eliminate transfatty foods from their children's diets. The only way to ensure that is to remove it from restaurants. Hello, ban.



Edited by Renee 2007-02-01 4:33 PM
2007-02-01 4:29 PM
in reply to: #676019

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:27 PM

drewb8 - 2007-02-01 2:22 PM
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:12 PM

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents

Just to play devils advocate since I haven't heard about this proposal yet - 17w fluorescent vs. 60w incadescent = less energy. On the downside, just think of the black market for incadescent bulbs that will start up.

jimbo - 2007-02-01 1:36 PM actually, lighting accounts for a not insignificant portion of overall energy use in the average household. so yes, turning off the lights will help.

 

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents



I guess I was assuming that by banning incadescents the lawmakers weren't trying to make people sit in the dark, they were trying to make them switch to fluorescents instead of incadescents.
2007-02-01 4:31 PM
in reply to: #676023

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
drewb8 - 2007-02-01 2:29 PM
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:27 PM
drewb8 - 2007-02-01 2:22 PM
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:12 PM

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents

Just to play devils advocate since I haven't heard about this proposal yet - 17w fluorescent vs. 60w incadescent = less energy. On the downside, just think of the black market for incadescent bulbs that will start up.

jimbo - 2007-02-01 1:36 PM actually, lighting accounts for a not insignificant portion of overall energy use in the average household. so yes, turning off the lights will help.

 

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents

I guess I was assuming that by banning incadescents the lawmakers weren't trying to make people sit in the dark, they were trying to make them switch to fluorescents instead of incadescents.

The post talked about turning off lights.  Maybe that's a euphemism for a ban that I missed



2007-02-01 4:34 PM
in reply to: #676022

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
.

The government required gas to go leadless due to pollution issues. One could argue that greater electrical consumption due to using incandescents will burn less fossil fuels and create less polution. So, the good of the whole outweights your and my good of looking better in incandescent light.

I fully understand the reasoning behind it.  But I have to believe that the net effect of the use of incandescent light bulbs is infinitesimally small when they could take many other actions under the rubric of "saving energy."  Here's two easy ones -  require everyone to drive hybrid cars and compost their waste.  The effect of those two laws would be ginormous.  Why doesn't some lawmaker pass that bill?  Under the reasoning proposed, there should be no objection to those.



Edited by ChrisM 2007-02-01 4:35 PM
2007-02-01 4:36 PM
in reply to: #676012

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
drewb8 - 2007-02-01 4:22 PM
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:12 PM

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents

Just to play devils advocate since I haven't heard about this proposal yet - 17w fluorescent vs. 60w incadescent = less energy. On the downside, just think of the black market for incadescent bulbs that will start up.

 

Here's another 'downside' to flourescent bulbs:

 

Fluorescent light bulbs contain mercury. The standard fluorescent lamp contains approximately 20 milligrams of mercury. While there are no known health hazards from exposure to lamps that are intact, improper disposal of fluorescent lamps can contaminate the environment. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates that over 800 million lamps are produced each year to replace 800 million lamps that are then disposed. Since 1 gram of mercury is enough to contaminate a 2-acre pond, there is enough mercury in those lamps to contaminate 20 million acres of water.

Mercury is toxic to the human nervous system. Chronic breathing of mercury vapors can cause a range of physical symptoms, including inability to coordinate body movement and impairment of hearing, speech and vision. Exposure to mercury in other forms can lead to skin rashes and kidney damage.

Elemental mercury that is released to the environment can be deposited into lakes, rivers, and the oceans where a biological process takes place in which the mercury is converted into methylmercury, a highly toxic organic form of mercury. The methylmercury is then consumed by various animals in the food chain where it bioaccumulates, concentrating to higher and higher levels in larger animals. Consumption of larger mammals could cause elevated levels of methylmercury in humans, resulting in neurological damage to unborn children. According to estimates by the National Wildlife Federation, 85,000 U.S. women of childbearing age in a given year are exposed to elevated methylmercury levels sufficient to affect the brain development of their babies.

2007-02-01 4:38 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
Transfat bans - initially I thought it was a ban to save people from themselves. Then it occurred to me that parents are feeding this stuff to their kids - Happy Meal anyone? - and that children have a right not to be fed transfats, even if their parents are too lax or indifferent or whatever not to feed them transfatty foods. The only way to ensure that is to remove it from restaurants. Hello, ban.


I believe transfat bans and other efforts to legislate morality, health or other personal choices are a gross over-reach of gov't power. Not only is it mildly troublesome that they are so determined ot meddle in our lives, but frankly they have far better things to do with their time and our money.

In no particular order:
1) education reform
2) entitlement spending
3) wars
4) environmental and energy issues

But my reservations about invasive gov't aside, I have not seen the gov't ban alcohol because it is the only way to prevent drunk driving. Nor have I seen the gov't ban tobacco b/c of lung cancer or the risks posed to children (before or after they are born). Until I see some consistency along those lines, I'll continue to believe transfat bans, foi gras bans (chicago) and other legislation like it are just more examples of junk legislation that our elected officals b/c they are too inept to make any real progress. $.02
2007-02-01 4:40 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

Just to play devil's advocate a little furhter on this side...... 

There has been a lot of talk recently about multiple chemical sensitivity, and whether employers must accommodate for that.  It's becoming, or maybe is,a recognized condition.  Some people with MCS claim that fluorescent lighting harms them, one case even talks about a woman coming down with cerebral palsy like symptoms after exposure.

Is the government saying you must expose yourself to harm if you have MCS?  How should we accommodate for individual claims of MCS?  Will incandescent lighting be by prescription only?



Edited by ChrisM 2007-02-01 4:42 PM
2007-02-01 4:41 PM
in reply to: #675785

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
According to Dane Counry, WI:

Nationally, an estimated 10-15 million computers are discarded annually. Prorated to Dane County, this means that some 15 to 25 thousand are discarded each year, although the number could be far higher due to our large student population.

Computers contain a number of toxic and hazardous materials, including lead, cadmium, mercury and flame retardants.

Does this mean we should discourage the use of computers too? Or cell phones? Etc...


2007-02-01 4:42 PM
in reply to: #676033

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

Fluorescent light bulbs contain mercury. The standard fluorescent lamp contains approximately 20 milligrams of mercury. While there are no known health hazards from exposure to lamps that are intact, improper disposal of fluorescent lamps can contaminate the environment.

Aw jeez. 

Easy, government will mandate that everyone dispose of their government mandated fluorescent light bulbs in ther government mandated lead-lined environmentally sealed trash cans.  Problem solved

2007-02-01 4:42 PM
in reply to: #676036

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 3:40 PM

Just to play devil's advocate a little furhter on this side...... 

There has been a lot of talk recently about multiple chemical sensitivity, and whether employers must accommodate for that.  It's becoming, or maybe is,a recognized symptom.  Some people with MCS claim that fluorescent lighting harms them, one case even talks about a woman coming down with cerebral palsy like symptoms after exposure.

Is the government saying you must expose yourself to harm if you have MCS?  How should we accommodate for individual claims of MCS?  Will incandescent lighting be by prescription only?



Only if you use the incadescent bulb to grow medicinal marijuana.
2007-02-01 4:44 PM
in reply to: #676040

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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again

Only if you use the incadescent bulb to grow medicinal marijuana.

touche!

2007-02-01 4:56 PM
in reply to: #676002

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Master
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Subject: RE: Global warming - the sky is falling…again
ChrisM - 2007-02-01 5:12 PM

jimbo - 2007-02-01 1:36 PM actually, lighting accounts for a not insignificant portion of overall energy use in the average household. so yes, turning off the lights will help.

Which has nothing to do with banning incandescents



i was responding to what rogillio said, "If global warming is caused by humans, what are we supposed to do about it? Turn off the kitchen lights when no one is in the kitchen?" and then i changed gears to respond to the incandescent ban. poor quoting on my part.
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