Increasing power threshold over the winter (Page 10)

Last week I did one FT and 1 tempo session. I know my training load was a bit too aggressive for my cycling fitness + my swim/run load = legs too tired

I'm doing 2 or 3 if weather is bad trainer workouts a week.

One is 4x8' at FTP with 4' rest

Second one is 10x2' at 45 watts over FTP with 2' rest..this is the harder one for me

If weather doesn't allow me to do my brick outdoor..my brick is broken up into three portions first 10x2' at 45 watts over FTP again, run 15 minutes, second is 12'x2 at FTP, run 15' minutes, then easy IM pace cadence stuff for an hour. I'm really hoping the expected 15 degree weather Friday changes so I can do 40 miles outside..seems like it will be easier.

You're working very different systems in those intervals.  To maximize your FT, longer intervals are better.  Even VO2max intervals are usually ~4min.  It's not that the work you're doing isn't "good" or won't help you.  It's just that you could probably make even better use of your training time. 

In particluar, I'd say those last 10 x 2:30 with 2:30 rest are both too short and have too much rest.

I am a bit skeptical of some of my results based on what I did this AM and not sure if it is todays test or the Jan one maybe?  Here is today, followed by the three prior tests:

Today- 20 mins 8.35 miles, avg watts 335 (25.05 mph avg)= 318 FTP

Mar 31 07- 20 minutes 7.74 miles, avg watts 266 (23.22 mph avg)= 253 FTP

Dec 4th 07- 20 minutes 8.11 miles, avg watts 307 (24.33 mph avg)= 292 FTP

Jan 15 08- 20 mins 8.15 miles, avg watts 312 (24.45 mph avg)= 296 FTP

I had a bout with Vertigo so did almost nothing last week until Saturday with some light elliptical, an easy bike Sunday and a run/lift yesterday.  I think those workouts were enough to work the gunk outta my system and I wasnt even really planning on doing this with the other two peeps doing it till my 5 minute hard push before the TT felt reaalll good.  I am under the impression that this gain is obnoxious and too good to be true, but there are a lot of factors that might have skewed this between the two most recent tests.  Which if any would factor in and where do ya think this realistically puts me?

Jan 15 test- slight knee twinge, chocolate cake the night before, 'normal' to increasing level of training relative to prior weeks, bike tires a little low (discovered later in the week) and weight on CT profile was 205

today- long 'taper' from an ear infection that really only had effect on balance after the first night (still residual effects), relatively clean eating during illness, tires inflated, weight on CT profile adjusted to 210 with bike (its not a full 5 pounds on me but a lot of it is muscle from biking and weights methinks so cut me some slack and from not working out last week, so cut me some slack peeps   )

I throw the weight thing in there only from the standpoint in wondering if weight is a function in the formula to get to watts produced (i.e. it takes more energy to move more mass at an equal speed, so the 5lbs extra on the same engine would produce a higher wattage reading) but looking for the possible fudge factors here.  Oh yeah, the calibration info would be nice for the future too.  Thanks in advance folks for the input!

Assuming calibration is good from test-to-test, I assume that the increase is a result of 1)training and 2)rest.  You hit this test with both a better base of fitness and better rested.  The real test will be to see if you can handle the higher watts in your training on a regular basis going forward.

Nice work, BTW!

Latest update:

Another 2 x 20' (2') test this morning.  In Jan I was at 290w, early Feb was 303w and 3 weeks later I'm at 305.  Gains are getting tougher now, but still closing the gap on the 310-312 I peaked at last season.  Weight is under 86kg now, so w/kg almost up to 3.6 which is where I was last season.  Still working towards an additional 10+ watts.  And a couple fewer kg.

I did 30' TT outside today on the same course as I raced 4 TT last summer. It was super windy and I know I'm not in top cycling shape. It was my first ride on my tri bike outside since early October as I've been riding a road bike outside all winter.

For the full 30' my NP was 180 and my first half and second half NP was exactly the same which is great as I used to always go out to hard.

The course is shaped like a P and 8.1 miles long. My coach wanted me to do 30 minutes as opposed to the distance I did last summer so I just looped the circle part which meant the last bit was the uphill portion.

Today for the first 8.1 miles 23:26, NP 179

My TT's last summer for 8.1 miles
Week 1: 22:45, NP 183
Week 2: 22:46, NP 193
Week 3: 22:51, NP 187
Week 4: 23:23, NP 187- only one I did with my Zipp 404s and the slowest, interesting

Overall I'm pleased as its March and it wasn't a race so maybe a bit less motivation to push as hard as an actual time trial. I'm very curious how much it is possible to improve. Seems many of you are pretty close to same FTP as you were last summer and gaining on it.

I'm hoping to get my power in TT's up to 213 before IMLP.

What is everybody's HR during FT intervals?  After mostly base building in Feb, I've done a few FT workouts and would be doing significantly more in the coming months.  During FT intervals at Coggan's Z4 (eg 5 x 6' @ FTP today), my max HR is generally in Friel's Z3 range.   When running intervals (eg 5 x 4' @ 5K race pace), my max HR is in Friel's Z5a.  I would have expected HR for FT and running intervals to be similar.  So why are they so different?  Am I doing sth wrong?

FTP is max power for 60'. 

5k race pace is max pace for +/- 20'.

That's a big difference.  FTP intervals are closer to hard tempo running (something bewteen 10k/half marathon pace).  Your HR should get higher than that in longer FT intervals as well (those are fairly short FT intervals).

Does Jorge and others have comments to this question of mine -

I'd be interested in Jorge's opinion here too.  I've always felt that you basically develop your own "optimum cadence" based on training habits and muscle fiber type.  If you were to do an FTP test, you'd probably get the best results at this optimum cadence, and trying to go up or down from that sweet spot would probably result in a corresponding power drop.  You can try doing an FTP training session at a higher or lower cadence, but I'm betting you'll start to tire a bit more quickly, which will result in a decrease in your power output.

Any thoughts Jorge?

I would echo Dave's comments above.  If your usual cadence is 85-90, then that's probably the right cadence to use for the FT intervals too.  It's OK to spin different cadences to get comfortable 'grinding' on a hill or spinning faster over rolling terrain.  But if you're weak on hills, it's a power/weight issue.  That's what lifting your FT is all about. 

You can always bring more gears on your bike to allow you to turn a faster cadence on those hills too. 

I have been playing around with this and doing a number of cadence tests. I have found that my HR is lower when I do lower cadence and higher when I do higher cadence or normal. When I first started doing FTP work after being off from surgery it was challenging I found I would sort of cheat by dropping my cadence down get to the watts I was aiming at and it wasn't as hard as doing my normal 97-98 cadence. My coach encouraged me to stop doing that and ride my normal cadence. 

After testing the conclusion was for TT and shorter things my sweet spot is 97-98 and sometimes 2-3 higher; but for longer events like HIM or IM bike it should be lower around 88-93. 

by testing and doing long rides you'll figure your optimal cadence and you should try to train at that range. Most athletes will benefit between the 80 and 100 range (some even higher)

mine is around 95-100 and I am usually training at that range whether doing FT sessions or a long steady ride up a hill (unless the hill is to steep then just adjust) and I don't even think much about it. If you use clycling/training peaks you can identify this on the cadence graph (switch the X increments to 5 to make it more obvious)

here is mine from this season:

I tested today and totally sucked at it (same exact #s as last time, except for the 5' test because I messed that up last time). The last test I did was outdoors; today's test was indoors.

Protocol:

15' WU at endurance watts
5' all out
10' at endurance watts
20' all out test
25' CD -- cut that short by a few mins

Results:

5' Test:
Avg Power: 216
Max Power: 275
Avg HR: 166
Max HR: 174

20' Test:
Avg Power: 203
Max Power: 243
Avg HR: 177
Max HR: 185

Not sure why I wasn't any stronger than last time. Maybe it was because I was indoors, or maybe I just didn't get any stronger over the past 9 weeks. I don't think I could have given that test any more than what I did .

ETA: my power files from this test were a lot more consistent than they were from the last test. The last time, i was outside, so I had terrain and wind to deal with, thus causing power to go up and down. I had more "lower points" (or however I should say it) in my power file last time. The route I use is flat, but I mean, it'll never be 100% flat as it's outdoors, so there were I gues a few small areas where maybe I was on a slight decline, or changed direction (has a few curves) and got some help from the wind. This time, I held pretty steady for the entire 20 mins.