Gray Guys/Girls Maturing Triathlete Mentor Group (Page 11)

I apologize in advance, this post is VERY long!  Get some popcorn and a glass of water before you start!  

1:2:1 is a rough, very general guide.  Rarely does anyone perfectly hit that ratio.  When I look at stats, if I see 29% swim, 49% bike, and 22% run, I'm good with that.  On the other hand, if I saw 49% swim, 26% bike, and 25% run, I would be making a change in the balance of my workouts unless I had specifically been doing a swim block.  NOTHING in triathlon is absolute.

Now, more specifically to your question.  Yes, I mean 6,300-8,400 yards per workout 3-4 times per week.  If you are a 1:30/100 swimmer you can easily swim 3,500 yards per hour so 21,000 yards is 6-hours.  A one-hour IM swim is always a nice goal.  That requires 1:25.7/100.  For an age-group triathlete, that is generally front middle of the pack to front of pack depending upon who shows up at the race.  If you aren't swimming at that pace then I submit you have some low hanging technique fruit that can easily be picked with some lessons and/or one-on-one time with a qualified coach.  The primary goal of a triathlon swim is to complete the swim aerobically.  If you have poor technique, it is VERY difficult to complete the swim aerobically.  A swimmer that is at 1:30/100y typically has OK technique.  To complete a 2.4 mile open-water swim requires a significant swim base - a base you aren't going to get by swimming just a few hours a week.  Initially, if you are swimming slower than 1:30/100, your ratio will be slightly unbalanced as you work to improve your swim.  That's the problem with pre-written plans - they don't accommodate working on a weakness.

Now, before you become disheartened and say, "Well, Scott said I have to swim 1:30/100."  That's NOT what I am saying.  Some people swim slower than that, some faster.  An athlete I am working with was swimming 1:48/100 when we started,  He's now at 1:34/100.  He isn't NOT going to do an IM because he isn't at 1:30/100.  We simply modify his training to continue to work on his weakness.  In the same way, I'd encourage you to modify your training so that you can continue to focus on your weakness(s).  That may mean that week to week, you are changing things up so you can focus on that weakness.

I'll qualify what I am about to say as I don't know you, nor have I seen your training logs.  That said, weekly TSS of 1,392.9 is unsustainable for most age-group triathletes.  Continuing to train at that level, especially without adequate recovery can easily result in illness, injury, or worse.  Weekly TSS of 1,392.9 means a daily TSS of 199.0.  That means you need AT LEAST 199 TSS per day to increase CTL.  I'm not saying that's impossible.  I am saying that most AG triathletes don't have the time to consistently achieve that volume of quality training.

The biggest shortcoming of most age-group triathletes is that on hard days, they don't go hard enough, and on easy days they don't go easy enough.  They fall into the trap of believing that more volume or more distance is the  answer.  I will put up a post later today in which I reveal the fallacy and danger of that thinking (a separate post because it will be long).

Don't want to sound like the voice of doom.  Again, I don't know you and don't have any first-hand knowledge of your training, but those TSS numbers jump out as me as being too high to be safely sustainable.  I ALWAYS come down on the side of health.  You can't race of train if you are sick or injured.

I'd like to share an article written by another BT member.  This is his firsthand account of dealing with OTS (Overtraining Syndrome).  I am NOT saying you have or are even approaching OTS however, with your training volume and your self-described difficulty taking time off, you need to at least be aware of what's over the cliff.  This is a good read if you have the time - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com/2015/11/overtraining-syndrome-ots-my-experience.html.

Also, the BT thread associated with Chris's post - http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=537259&posts=16#M5151783

This sounds suspiciously like the BarryP running plan, which is a very good approach in my opinion.  If you haven't already done so, you might take a look at the McMillan run calculator to dial in your training paces - https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/

This is where the VAST majority of triathletes go off the reservation.  I'm going to make a comment that is going to cause you to think I am crazy.  Please hear me out before you "change the channel."

A successful Ironman has absolutely NOTHING to do with fitness.

An analogy - it isn't about the car, it's about how your DRIVE the car.  The VAST majority of the athletes that show up at an IM start are focused on their fitness:  Will I have enough fitness to finish strongly?  Will I be strong enough to handle the hills?  In other words, in their misguided world, the course is the problem and they are applying fitness as the solution.  With that mindset, their race will be over before it even starts.

The first key to success is you must execute your race day plan - that is the only thing that will allow you to have a successful Ironman race.

IM success is about executing your race plan using whatever level of fitness you bring on race day.

Trust me on this, the course will be littered with the bodies of very fit men and women who don't know how to properly form and/or execute a race plan.

If you ask 20-different Triathlon coaches what the target CTL should be prior to an IM race - IF they gave you an answer - you'd get 20-different answers spread across a VERY wide margin.  Being prepared for an IM is more than CTL.  For example, you can have a VERY high CTL but never done a full day of training.  Things change when you are going continuously for 8, 10, 12 or more hours.  CTL is a snapshot of your fitness level, it isn't the final determinant of preparation.

This is what will get you into trouble.  You MUST allow for proper recovery.  Failure to do so is an invitation for disaster.  That is a biological fact supported by decades of research.  As I said, I will put up a post in the next couple of hours talking specifically about this.

I haven't talked specifically about swim training in a couple of seasons so I will see if I can find a previous post in which I talked about this.  Yes, swim training is different - kinda.  More importantly, swimming is highly technical.  If you don't have the technique down, you can swim hundreds of thousands of yards and you will, quite simply, be wasting your time.  More on this later today or tomorrow.

In my opinion your TSB is too low.  As before, that is without seeing your training logs and having a "big picture view."  That said, if one of my athlete's TSB gets that low, we immediately shut things down or back things WAY off.

Here is a link to an article by Joe Friel who is commonly accepted as a giant among triathlon coaches.  In this article he refers to keeping TSB above -30.  For a maturing athlete, I like to keep TSB above -20.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2015/12/managing-training-using-tsb.html

Adbru ... nice job with the distance and also recognition that your body ran out of gas.  One thing I struggled with for a long time was proper nutrition when riding.  I went to the local Tri store a while back with one SIL and when we got ready to leave the SIL thumped down a bunch of nutrition stuff at check-out.  I sort-of laughed at him and said,"'why are you wasting your money on that stuff?".  The store owner looked at me and very kindly and respectively discussed with me about the calories used during a ride and replenishing the calories lost due to the exertion.  He was also a racer, had a ton on IM finisher bibs on the wall and had the palmare's to credit him. The light went off in my head and ever since I've been an advocate for taking on nutrition during the ride.  So for me, (I'm prone to cramping too) I'll put:

• If riding 20-25 miles ... 2 water bottles on the bike - one with 2 NUUN tabs in it
• If riding 30+ miles ... 2 NUUN tabs in both bottles along with 3-4 Stingers or Gels
• If riding >40 miles,3 water bottles and 2 NUUN in each bottle, and some extra NUUN for refills in my jersey along with 3-4 Stingers and 3-4 Gels

Some will take a baggie with mixed nuts in it, chocolate, PB and honey squares and so forth ... but the point is you're burning a lot of fuel when riding and you need to refill the tank.  I did my first century ride last spring and was taking in something every 20-25 minutes ... either a gel, Stingers or rest stop nutrition.

Great job ... keep peddling!

Ciao ... Dorm

In an earlier post I said I'd post about balancing training and recovery.  The forum here at BT doesn't really support pictures or graphs very well so instead, I put the article up on my website and will offer a link for those interested.

The human body strives to maintain homeostasis; a fancy term for balance.  To maintain homeostasis, the body continually adapts to its environment.  Training is simply the manipulation of the application of stress and the body’s adaptation to the stress in order to maintain a state of homeostasis.Through that manipulation, the specific adaptive response we are attempting to achieve is called ‘Supercompensation.”

http://triathlonswimcoach.com/index.php/en/resources/2014-11-30-20-43-15/ct-menu-item-3/91-supercompensation

A comment was recently made about how swim training differs from cycling and run training.  I’m going to respond to that in a couple of posts so they (the posts) don’t get crazy long.

In this first part, I want to talk about the foundation of triathlon swim training.

After stroke technique, the next most important thing to improving your triathlon swim speed is understanding swim threshold pace (STP).  You can swim hundreds of thousands of yards each month and if you don’t understand swim threshold pace, those training yards may not have been as effective as they could have been – and they may have been wasted time altogether.  On race day, without an understanding of swim threshold pace, you will likely be swimming to fast – leading to lactic acidosis with the obvious negative effect; or swimming too slow – with the equally obvious negative effect.

So what is swim threshold pace?

While this is not an article about human energy pathways or metabolism, we do need to look at some basic theories in order to understand swim threshold pace.

Most athletes are familiar with the idea of a physiological point above which exercise performance becomes limited.  Several terms have been used to describe this point:

• Lactate threshold
• Anaerobic threshold
• Aerobic threshold
• Onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA)
• Maximal lactate steady state

Although these terms are often used interchangeably, they do not describe the same thing.  Of interest to distance swimmers, including triathletes racing any length triathlon, is the concept of Maximal Lactate Steady State (MLSS).

Maximal Lactate Steady State – The exercise intensity at which maximal lactate clearance is equal to maximal lactate production.

Above MLSS, lactate begins to accumulate.  Below MLSS, the body is able to clear lactate.

A common misconception is that blood lactate has an adverse effect on muscle performance. Research has shown however that any negative effect on performance associated with blood lactate accumulation is due to an increase in hydrogen ions – lactic acid. We’ll avoid the long biological discussion on how the hydrogen ions come to be there.   The increase in hydrogen ions and subsequent acidity of the internal environment is called lactic acidosis.  That burn you feel in your muscles when you push really hard is the result of an increased concentration or accumulation of hydrogen ions.

Swim threshold pace is the pace you swim while at your maximal lactate steady state.

If you swim above this pace (faster - [STP - X]) you will quickly go into lactate acidosis and you either need to slow down or your body will force you to slow down.

If you swim below this pace (slower - [STP + X]) you are not swimming to your full potential.

When you’re swimming at your swim threshold pace you are theoretically swimming at the maximum pace that you can sustain indefinitely.

Swim threshold pace becomes a very effective guide to setting race pace.  For example:

• Sprint – 750m – STP minus 2-3 sec/100
• Olympic – 1,5km – STP to STP - 1 sec/100
• 70.3 – 1.9km – STP plus 1-2 sec/100
• 140.6 – 3.8km – STP plus 2-3 sec/100

Beyond setting race pace however, STP has a very important role in training.  If you can increase your swim threshold pace, or the pace you swim while at your maximal lactate steady state, your race speed will improve.

Remember what you are training for.  Your ability to sprint or work anaerobically above MLSS is irrelevant in distance swimming and triathlon.  Yet many triathletes continue to train with swim teams or masters swim teams above MLSS – they get in the water and crush set after anaerobic swim set.  In the process, they do absolutely nothing towards improving their swim threshold pace.

The secret to improving your STP is to train at or just slightly below your current STP (STP to STP + [1-2] seconds).

For most triathletes, changing to STP sets will probably mean more total distance, shorter repetitions, and less recovery time.  You will likely find STP sets to be relatively easy at first.  Stick with it and you will be feeling the training effect of training at threshold pace by the end of the set.  The desire will be there to go faster than your swim threshold pace.  Don’t bow to the temptation!  By controlling your pace you develop the ability to accurately swim at a specific pace.

If you are unable to maintain your swim threshold pace it is preferable to slow down slightly rather than take a longer rest interval.  You should feel like you are working very hard in the later part of the set.

In the next part we’ll look at how to determine your STP.

Greg,

I don't talk about anything beyond mentoring in any of the BT forums.  That crosses an ethical line I have drawn in the sand.  If you'd like to initiate a private message, I'll be happy to talk about options you might have. (Click my screen name at the top of a post, select 'Send a Message.'

Scott ... thanks for the always quality response.  It is soooo hard to jog and maintain the HR at the prescribed level (125 bpm)!  I am stupidly stubborn and for years cycled at too high an intensity and my endurance suffered. 

Is this a similar situation with running, wherein running at the slower pace builds base into endurance, and eventually into speed?  I've really enjoyed this method ... almost no joint soreness or muscle fatigue ... but I eventually do want to go faster.

Dorm

Adbru, I'm not sure on the flavors.  I'm ok with the citrus flavor personally and I can tolerate the taste during long rides. The ones I use are: Nuun Active Hydration Drink Tablets. You can check the site below as to various flavors ... these have a local store here and the stuff is always on sale.  Not trying to plug for Performance, but I do a fair amount of bizz with them; they have a good selection and variety of nutrients, and will ship to your home. 

I've had similar experience with cramps ... so bad once (I had them in my quads - both legs) that I actually passed out and woke up on the floor.  Once I started with Nuun - I've not have problems since.  I'm sure there are other supplements out there, but NuuN works for me.

... www.performancebike.com

Ciao ... Dorm

50' cycling session today ... Marc's Vo2Max, also some strength training too.  I was really glad to see the last 5'@60% FTP roll around ... whewww! 

Hope all are having a good week!

Ciao ... Dorm

In Part 2 of my Triathlon Swim Training series we are going to look at how to determine your Swim Threshold Pace - STP.  

To perform a Swim Threshold Pace (STP) test you will need:

• A stopwatch or training watch (i.e. Garmin)
• An assistant (ideally, not absolutely necessary)
• And of course a short course or long course pool

Do your normal warm-up. Follow with a short build set to be ready to swim fast or as an alternative, here’s the warm-up that I recommend - http://triathlonswimcoach.com/index.php/en/resources/2014-11-30-20-43-15/ct-menu-item-3/73-getting-the-most-out-of-your-pre-workout-warm-up

Once you are thoroughly warmed up, you will do two time trials to establish your STP; one of 400 yards (or meters if you are in a long course pool) and one of 200 yards/meters.   Both time trials will be done in the same pool, during the same swim session.

Each time trial will start from a push off the wall – no diving start.

Both time trials will be at a maximal pace - meaning as fast as you can go the distance. Pace yourself and hold a constant pace throughout each time trial – try not to go out to hard and slow down.

Have your assistant say ‘Go’ and begin the test. Your assistant records the time in seconds.  If you don’t have an assistant, do the best you can to start/stop your watch.  This isn’t rocket science, close is close enough.

Allow sufficient time between the two time trial swims so that you are FULLY recovered before the second time trial. Begin with the 400 time trial.  Swim an easy cool-down for at least 10 minutes allowing your heart rate to fully recover to your base rate (your heart rate at the end of a typical warm-up).

Have your assistant say ‘Go’ to begin the second test. Your assistant records the time in seconds.

How to Calculate STP

Swim Threshold Pace in yards/meters per second can be calculated with the following formula, where D1 = 400, D2 = 200, T1 = time for 400 swim in seconds and T2 = time for 200 swim in seconds

STP = (D1 - D2) ÷ (T1 - T2)

An Example

We happen to have a couple of imaginary swimmers that just completed a STP test.

Rick swam 400y in 9:03 and 200y in 4:29.

Suzie swam 400y in 6:33 and 200y in 3:13.

The Math

Rick –

9:03 = 543 seconds, 4:29 = 269 seconds

[400-200]/[543-269] = 200/274 = 0.730 yards per second

Convert to 100 yards = 100/0.73 = 136 seconds/100y = 2:16/100y

Rick's swim threshold pace is 2:16/100 yards.

Suzie –

6:33 = 393 seconds, 3:13 = 193 seconds

[400-200]/[393-193] = 200/200 = 1.0 yards per second

Convert to 100 yards = 100/100 = 100 seconds/100y = 1:40/100y

Suzie's swim threshold pace is 1:40/100y

In the next part of the Triathlon Swim Training series we will look at how to use your STP to determine your intervals and explore endurance swim training.

Hey Chris,

Your math doesn't seem to be adding up.

If you calculated your STP at 1:27/100 then STP+8 would be 1:35.  At least according to my math, but I'm an old man and it's been a LONG time since school!

What were your 400 and 200 times if you don't mind me asking.  If you've never swam faster than 1:33/100 it doesn't seem right that your STP would calculate to 1:27/100.

This particular STP test looks at the pace per 100 for both the 400 and 200 and takes into account the change in pace per 100 between the two time trials to determine threshold pace.  One of the drawbacks to this test is it sometimes calculates your STP as a second or two faster than reality.  That's not a real issue as we generally calculate interval pace and round to the nearest :05 - for example, interval is STP + 3 where STP = 1:20 = 1:20 + 0:03 = 1:23. Round to nearest 0:05 = 1:25 interval.

Hey Adrian,

You may already know this but there might be others in the group that don't.  

Most athletes have enough stored glycogen (carbohydrate) in their bodies for about 90-minutes, give or take.  Any workout over that length and you should be taking in nutrition.  Especially on long rides.  That is far and away the best time to take in nutrition during a race so any long ride is a great time to practice.  Additionally, you can figure out what works for you nutritionally.

Along the nutrition lines and because someone mentioned about gels being sticky and sweet - I use Infinit nutrition.  I am in no way affiliated with Infinit so this is simply a recommendation based on years of firsthand experience and empirical evidence from multiple athletes.  Infinit can create a custom blend for YOU and their website will do a much better job of telling you about Infinit than I can.

https://www.infinitnutrition.us/

Originally posted by adbru Hi All, Did a new longest ride on Monday, 41miles in just over 3 hours. I only took water with me and was completely spent by the end. But now I may be able to recognise the signs/feelings of fueling. I'll now start adding fuel on my longer sessions , previously I used gels/banana's and PBJ on wholemeal bread for long cycles which seemed to work well for me. took Tues/Wed as rest days and just been out for a short session (8.7miles), in the middle was a 'hill' which I failed to conquer on three previous attempts - however I made it today without getting out of the saddle so feeling happy ! I'm currently 224miles cycling for the year, lots more to do before my event in April.... train safe guys Adbru

Adbru - When I read your post and you mentioned your April event I was curious about your event.  So, I peeked at your training log and saw it is the "etape Loch Ness" and then I went to the website and had a look at the course and pictures.  It looks like a very beautiful ride with a fair bit of climbing.  What is the weather typically like in April?  I think I would love to do a ride like that if I ever got the chance.  I'm looking forward to reading your race report.

Locally, I ride in a Granfondo every year that is a lot of fun as well.  

We're getting a burst of spring here this week - 70's through the weekend.  I'm planning to get out and enjoy it as much as possible.  Went for a run after work yesterday - 4 miles at the park across the street.  I was talking to my husband about it afterwards.  The first 2 miles were a little tough, but the second 2 seemed easier.  I think it was a combination of my body being more warmed up (after sitting at a desk for 8 hours) and my mind being more calm on the second half.  It's been a rough couple of weeks at work - which are hopefully winding down - and the stress was starting to get to me.  Running definitely helps with stress relief for me.  

Scott - I always appreciate your very thorough posts and answers to questions, especially on swimming - I know I learn a lot from them.  I need to re-do my STP test I think.  I don't swim as much as I should, but I'm still seeing some improvements.  My 300 time has dropped recently from 6:30-7:00 down to about 6:20-6:35.  I even hit 6:00 the other morning (don't expect that to continue, it was just a really good swim day).  After my upcoming trail races are over I plan to hit the pool and the bike pretty hard for my tri's in May.  

Hope everyone has a wonderful weekend!
Janet

Hey Dorm,

I say all the time that the biggest shortcoming many age-group triathletes share is,"They don't train hard enough on hard days, and they don't train easy enough on easy days."  This falls right into that statement.

While MAF running, it isn't uncommon for people to have to walk on occasion to keep HR within zone, at least initially.  In time, your pace will improve and HR will stay in zone.  It can be very frustrating running at MAF pace as it is SLOW, much slower than triathletes are typically running.  To use MAF you (athletes in general, not necessarily YOU) need to leave the ego at home, forget about the little old ladies and young children laughing at you as they pass, and strictly adhere to your HR zone.  In time, as your body becomes more efficient at utilizing fat for fuel, you will get faster.

The best way to gauge progress is by doing a MAF test every 4-6 weeks - https://philmaffetone.com/maf-gps-test/

I often hear about how MAF is only for new or "slower" athletes.  Here are Mark Allen's (6-time Ironman World Champion), thoughts on using the Maffetone Method - http://duathlon.com/articles/1460/

And one more from the Maffetone site where Mark gets into speed work and Maffetone "not working" for some people - https://philmaffetone.com/alleninterview/

Mountain biking this morning ... first time in a while and had a blast.  I like to throw this in occasionally as it's great interval training and also great to build balance and improve bike handling skills. 

Julie ... on your question re: the swim - for my first triathlon, I was maybe halfway thru the swim and had to flip over and backstroke the remainder of the swim.  So the answer to your question is - absolutely you can side kick or breast stroke thru the swim leg.  Just be sure that you know your 100m split time when signing up such that the organizer slots you with similar speed swimmers. You'll want to swim with ones with similar speed as you're not bumping, having to pass, moving over for ones to pass, et al. 

Hope all have had a nice weekend.

Ciao ... Dorm