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2010-04-23 1:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
A few pages ago there was a big discussion regarding pace and time on the bike course. I am curious to know what is the ideal zone to be in while racing LP? Should I keep it in Z2 on the easier parts and then allow my hr to go up to 3 or a little higher on the hills? Do you try and stay in Z3 the whole race or do you just attempt to keep it in Z2 the whole day?

My ultimate goal on race day is to finish but to finish with the best that I can. I know that walking the hr line between zones is a fine line, so any insight you could provide would be great.


2010-04-23 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
Mcluvin22 - 2010-04-23 2:35 PM A few pages ago there was a big discussion regarding pace and time on the bike course. I am curious to know what is the ideal zone to be in while racing LP? Should I keep it in Z2 on the easier parts and then allow my hr to go up to 3 or a little higher on the hills? Do you try and stay in Z3 the whole race or do you just attempt to keep it in Z2 the whole day?

My ultimate goal on race day is to finish but to finish with the best that I can. I know that walking the hr line between zones is a fine line, so any insight you could provide would be great.



you got to play around with it in training.

I find, if *I* am going to go 4-6 hours on the bike at a steady effort, the first 2-3 hours better be high zone 1, otherwise i'll never make it AND be able to run 26 miles after.

Keep in mind on race day, this is the effort you are looking for, not a HR number.  You are looking for a feeling/effort that coinides with that zone that worked for you durnig training.

I, as it has already been said, wouldn't go chasing a HR zone.  HR/PM are great tools to confirm what you are feeling and provide instant feedback.



 

2010-04-23 2:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
LazyMarathoner - 2010-04-23 2:25 PM
gopennstate - 2010-04-23 12:28 PM
PennState - 2010-04-23 12:12 PM 
Good points, but ultimately its fun isn't it? It's like going to camp and being a kid again Not necessary, but fun!


Yep.  Tons of fun.   We had a blast last year.  The only thing I want to do differently is bump everything back a day so training can end on Saturday and partying can go down Sat night without having to do a long run Sun am!


I ran 13 miles after the partying went down on Saturday last year! So really, Jenn lied, there was a tiny bit more than eat, sleep and train, but it is so much more fun than being at home!


Shhhhhhhhhh.  Maybe there was a fun little party going on in a certain hotel room occupied by a certain couple BTers who shall remain nameless.  Maybe there was some brownie eating to celebrate a b-day.  Maybe some people not staying in the room decided to sleepover b/c our room was so fun.  Maybe we spent a few hours laughing while it was torrential downpouring outside.  And maybe we all got up and ran 1 loop Sunday am.  I was the first one out the door for the run btw!!!!!!  So maybe, just maybe, there was a bit more than s/b/r.  
2010-04-23 2:04 PM
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2010-04-23 2:09 PM
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2010-04-23 2:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
also, I think HR numbers in training and racing are 2 different things.  At least for me.

At my half last year, I averaged 158 BPM, which is the top end of Z3.  159 is zone 4 for me, so I was probably in Z4 for a good amount of time.

I went on to have a great run, beating my expected pace.

I couldn't average 158 bpm in a training ride of any legnth over 1 hour, than run after, if I wanted to. 

For me to say I was in Z3/4 for my half can be misleading, as the effort matched up with a Z2/3 training ride.


2010-04-23 3:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
WittyCityGirl - 2010-04-23 1:35 PM

Based off of some RR from last year---there wasn't much FUN in Ironman!!!! 



Of course it is hard, but if you don't have fun, then you shouldn't be doing it unless it's your job! I thought it was extremely hard, but I had an absolute blast and a smile plastered on my face! Everytime it gets hard, you just think....."I'm doing f'ng Ironman!!!"
2010-04-23 5:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
I KNEW I had read that race report before when I read about the snot rocket!  I hope you're running ahead of me for entertainment purposes.  Smacking a$$ during Baby Got Back? That's awesome!

gopennstate - 2010-04-23 1:56 PM
WittyCityGirl - 2010-04-23 1:35 PM Based off of some RR from last year---there wasn't much FUN in Ironman!!!! 


Mine was tons of fun!  

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=172413&posts=37&mid=2318586&highlight=&highlightmode=1&action=search#M2318586 
2010-04-23 6:44 PM
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2010-04-23 6:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
cusetri - 2010-04-23 1:35 PM

also, I think HR numbers in training and racing are 2 different things.  At least for me.

At my half last year, I averaged 158 BPM, which is the top end of Z3.  159 is zone 4 for me, so I was probably in Z4 for a good amount of time.

I went on to have a great run, beating my expected pace.

I couldn't average 158 bpm in a training ride of any legnth over 1 hour, than run after, if I wanted to. 

For me to say I was in Z3/4 for my half can be misleading, as the effort matched up with a Z2/3 training ride.


Even though I am in Mexico, I need to keep an eye on my Jedi recruits. Mike, I would be VERY careful drawing that conclusion. Training DOESN'T lie. You can fake a Half. You can mess up your acing and still be good. Not in an IM. The only HR considerations for your race should be temps. If it's cool HR will be 5 BPM lower for the same effort.
2010-04-23 7:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread

I hear you.

part of my point, is, I wouldnt focus too much on HR or what zone you are in, if its a little higher or lower than what you see in training, the effort/feel of what worked for you in training should have some say in it all. 

of course, I have a PM, so that makes my job a lot easier.....

At my half, I focused on an effort, and my HR was my HR, I dont even think I looked at it once during the bike.  I shouldnt say that...i looked at it, but it never concerned me, because I felt fine.......



Edited by cusetri 2010-04-23 7:36 PM


2010-04-23 8:04 PM
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2010-04-23 8:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
I'm totally training RPE, as I do not own any more gadgets than a watch and a fancy schmancy (no, it's totally not) bike computer, that at its fancy schmanciest can tell me the temperature, my cadence, my avg speed, my current speed, and my mileage.

This is one of my favorite things I've read about IM training. Granted, I've never done an IM before, but this sounds like really good advice:

====================

http://www.trifuel.com/training/triathlon-training/the-endurance-nation-four-keys-to-ironman-execution

This is the official Endurance Nation Ironman Kool-Aid, we hope you enjoy it. Help us help you!

The Four Keys

  1. Execution, not Fitness. All you've done for 9 months is build a vehicle. Ironman racing is about how you DRIVE that vehicle, it is NOT about the vehicle. The majority of athletes on race day are fitness-focused (look at my T-shirt, look at my abs/veins/etc, look at how fast I can go in the first hour of the bike, etc.) As coaches we can make you stronger, but we can't fix stoopid if you decide to race your own way.
  2. The Line. Nothing on race day really matters until you reach The Line on the run. The Line is the point at which continuing becomes very, very difficult. You define success as simply not slowing down at The Line. EVERYTHING before The Line is simply about creating conditions for success for when the Line comes to you. Additional Kool-Aid flavored thoughts we'd like to put in your head regarding this point are:
  •  
    • A successful race = a good run. There is no such thing as a good bike followed by bad run, period. In our world, if you showed up with solid run fitness, had a "good" bike and a poor run, we will ALWAYS assume you boogered your bike pacing unless you are missing a limb or are in the ICU with an intestinal parasite.
    • If you think you can ride faster than we're telling you, prove it by running well off the bike first (preferrably not attempted for the first time on IM race day).
    • Ride your "should" bike split vs your "could" bike split. Your Could split is what you tell Timmy you could ride on a good day, when you're out together for your Saturday ride. If you say you "could ride a 5:50," your Should split is likely 6:00 and defined as the bike split that yields a good run (see above).
    • Don't eat the paste. Ironman in general, but especially the bike leg, is at best a special ed class: you only have to show up with your C game to be at the head of the class. If you find yourself doing the opposite of everyone else, you're doing the right thing. If Jimmy and everyone else is in the corner eating the paste, don't join them! Sit down, do what we're telling you, and don't eat the paste! Lots of people passing you in the first 40 miles? That's good, don't eat the paste. Going backwards through the field on a hill? That's good, don't eat the paste.
    • Think you made the mistake of riding too easy? You now have 26 miles to fix that mistake. Make the mistake of riding too hard? That mistake now has 26 miles to express itself, to the tune of X miles at 17-18' walking pace vs X miles at 8-10' running pace. Do the math. How is that bike split going to look as you are walking/shuffling the last 10 miles of the run?
    • Every time you feel yourself about to get stupid, look at where you are. Are you at The Line? No. Then sit down, shut up, do what you're told and don't be stoopid. Please.

3. The Box: all day long you are going to race inside a box defined by what you can control. Ask yourself "What do I need to do right NOW to create the conditions for success at The Line? Is what I'm doing right now counter to this goal? From what we've seen first hand on the IM courses this season, we believe you should ask yourself "Am I participating in some short-term tactical masturbation?" If yes, STOP!!

On the swim, the Box is the space your body occupies in the water: focus on your form and the rest will come. On the bike, the box is probably about one aid station long. On the run, the box begins as 2-3 aid stations long but often diminishes to "from here to the next lampost/manhole cover/mail box." Regardless:

  •  
    • Keep the box as big as you can for as long as you can.
    • Keep in the box only the things you can control. Let go of the rest.
    • Exercise this decision-making process inside your box: Observe the situation, Orient yourself to a possible course of action, Decide on a course of action, Act (OODA Loop).

4. The One Thing. If you swallowed the Kool-Aid we're serving you here, you will show up at the Line, in your Box, ready to git'erdun and simply not slow down. But we're not done yet. There is still some psychological stuff you need to address.

During the course of your race day, expect your body to have a conversation with your mind: "Look, Mind, you've had me out here slogging away for 132 miles. This is really starting to get old and very painful. You need to give me a good reason to keep going forward. If you can't give me a good one, I'm gonna slow down and you can't stop me!" Before the race, you need to ask yourself "Why am I doing Ironman?" In other words, you need to determine what is the One Thing that put you in this race? To finish in the daylight with a smile on your face? To run a 4:10? Whatever your One Thing is, be absolutely clear and rehearse your mind/body debate beforehand. But be warned: your body can be a helluva good negotiator at mile 18, especially if your mind hasn't prepared its rebuttal arguments beforehand.

Unity of purpose creates clarity of focus, yielding breakthrough performance.

What have we not talked about so far? The things you are likely most torqued about: heart rate, pace, speed, watts, how to eat, what to drink, etc. We believe that if you can keep yourself focused on the Four Keys above, the rest of the day is relatively simple and you don't need to worry about these relatively small details. In other words, all the whizbang guidance in the world can't help you if don't have your mind right about the Four Keys above.

But because you're a Type A Triathlete and you want the details, here they are:

  • The Swim: Swim only as fast as your ability to maintain form. When you feel your form go, slow down. Counting strokes is an excellent technique for bringing your mind out of the race and into the Box of maintaining your form.
  • The Bike: JRA (Just Ride Along) for about 45-60'. Then shift from JRA to Easy (5:45+ should split) to Steady (sub 5:45 should split). Guage how well you're doing by how well you're NOT doing what everyone else is doing. REMEMBER: Don't eat the paste!
  • The Run: Jog for 4-6 miles, with a jogging, do-no-harm pace and heart rate cap. Jogging is defined as a pace you could sustain for hours if we kept feeding you. After 4-6 miles, shift from jogging to "running," running comfortably, getting what you need, and preparing yourself for the Line, where things become very uncomfortable. At the Line, just suck it up and giterdun.

Conclusion
That's it, that's as complicated as racing Ironman needs to be and we can't say it any more simply. We've basically given you a Vegas betting strategy, having managed and observed many rolls of the dice. If you sit down, shut up, do what we tell you, you will have a good day. But as you stray towards the Ricky Racer side of the execution scale, you begin to rattle the dice.

2010-04-23 11:37 PM
in reply to: #2337428

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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
Don't eat the paste. Ironman in general, but especially the bike leg, is at best a special ed class: you only have to show up with your C game to be at the head of the class. If you find yourself doing the opposite of everyone else, you're doing the right thing. If Jimmy and everyone else is in the corner eating the paste, don't join them! Sit down, do what we're telling you, and don't eat the paste! Lots of people passing you in the first 40 miles? That's good, don't eat the paste. Going backwards through the field on a hill? That's good, don't eat the paste.


This is easily one of the rudest, most ignorant, and most insensitive things I've ever read on this forum or regarding triathlons in general. Characterizing students in special education classrooms as stupid, paste-eating conformists disregards the profound emotional, behavioral, cognitive, and/or developmental disorders that these students struggle with every day of their lives. As someone who has worked to help students with special needs (so arrogantly misrepresented here) to achieve success in their education, I take personal offense with this section of this post. I sincerely hope no one actually finds inspiration in this comparison between a triathlete not going all out on the bike course to someone who was born with one or more debilitating disorders that has markedly separated them from their peers for their entire life.
2010-04-24 5:42 AM
in reply to: #2813259

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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
PennState - 2010-04-23 9:04 PM I wouldn't focus too much on toys like HRM, PM etc. They are great in training if used properly. However, many AGers have a fairly poor understanding of how to use them and what they mean. HR on race day is not that off from training. It is up a bit from the swim on the bike early on, but not 20 points higher in a race than effort. Mike raced his HIM in Z3 but it felt easier. IT ALWAYS DOES AT THE HIM DISTANCE AND SHORTER it felt Z2 but its not. As Bryan said, training doesn't lie. The effort you 'feel' you are putting forth in a race always feels low, its like you could go harder. But you can't and shouldn't. There is no magic pixie dust on race day. You are what you are and your training will be the best predictor of race day performance.




I wanted to use this opportunity to learn to see how close your HR is to your training rides, so I just took a look at your long rides in june before the race last year, and they were 131 bpm, 132 bpm and 126 bpm.  IMLP was 142 bpm.

you did have a 146 bpm 6 hour ride, in which you noted, "HR was higher than effort"

so, it looks to me you trained in Z1-2 and raced in Z2-3.

if im looking at this wrong, please correct me.

thanks!


also, a question....your long rides this year are also low 130s.  So, at LP, if you start creeping into the 140s, you are going to back off?






Edited by cusetri 2010-04-24 5:51 AM
2010-04-24 6:04 AM
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2010-04-24 6:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
PennState - 2010-04-24 7:04 AM Cusetri, When did I grant you permission to post stuff from my private log? I don't remember doing that, but I must have as you surely wouldn't have posted stuff from a private log on a open public forum would you? Without permission you wouldn't do that would you? I won't be addressing any more questions from you from here on in. Cusetri I will give the opportunity to apologize publicly for this now.


wow are you serious?

honestly, I forgot it was private, but even if I remembered, i dont see the problem.

I'm floored right now.

thanks for the opportunity Fred!

2010-04-24 6:15 AM
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2010-04-24 6:18 AM
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2010-04-24 6:22 AM
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2010-04-24 6:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
dont worry Fred...I'm respectfully  going to move on!

this thread has been a joy, and i've learned a lot.

if it's OK, i'll still be lurkin'....

i'm a straight shooter, dont lie, and say what I think.  Those that know me understand this, and I hope respect it. 

Keep training hard everyone, 3 more months, hard to beleive!!!

in the end, on race day, all you have is what you brought with you from training and your previous experience.  use what works for you!  Trust your training and those who work close with you every day!

I look forward to meeting everyone at the race, and first beer, or B&Js, (whatever our guts can handle) is on me.....

cuse

Edited by cusetri 2010-04-24 6:35 AM


2010-04-24 8:49 AM
in reply to: #2813565

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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread
Ok I'm going to try and act as placator (or whatever word for it is).
Please cusetri and pennstate just sort it out between you by a couple of pm's and cusetri do not leave us now.
This is a great thread and everybody contributes.

On a couple of general topics that have been raised I'd just like to say

(1) opinions here are peoples opinions - just that.  And opinions now may have changed compared to previous years or even mosts - because we learn from each other and our own performances.  We are all hopefully growing, thinking, becoming more knowledgeable.

(2) the endurance nation stuff - although I only barely know her via BT I am sure Swishyskirt was just trying to be helpful and if I was her right now would be feeling a bit subdued at the way her post (not her words) got such a reaction.  Not saying I don't agree but a more positive or tactful response maybe.
For me, I agree the comparison by EN is very wrong and insensitive but the underlying message of that part of the post is to ride your own race, don't get caught up by what everyone else is doing, stick to YOUR plan.

So, let's put all this behind us and move on in a positive manner.   We're getting closer to the big day and this thread is mostly wonderfully supportive.

Train on!  (says I who is on a huge rest week!)
2010-04-24 9:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread

This is my third year in the sport and I'm working on my third IM.  I just want to say that each year I have one stand out crappy day riding, one swimming, and one running. 

Today I knocked out my crappy biking day.  Nothing like being beaten down to a point why you question everything you do.  I am so happy that I got that out of the way.

I love this sport and I love all of you!

2010-04-24 11:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread

I really hope this thread didn't just jump the shark.

2010-04-24 1:10 PM
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