Gray Guys/Girls Maturing Triathlete Mentor Group (Page 12)

Hi Julie,

Welcome to the group!

The bad news - sadly you probably aren't going to become a great swimmer in three weeks.

The good news - there is nothing in any triathlon rules that I am aware of that says you can't swim breaststroke.  You may not make many friends amongst your fellow competitors swimming breaststroke, but they will get over it.  If you are going to swim breaststroke, simply line up to the side and rear of the pack if its a group start and move to the side if its a time trial start.  People will appreciate you attempting to "stay out of the way."

When you get a chance, please post a brief bio so we can get to know you a little bit, you can follow the general form found in the bios on the first couple of pages of this forum thread.

Again welcome, look forward to getting to know you.  There's a great bunch of people here that are more than happy to try and answer any questions you may have.

In the earlier parts of this series we looked at Swim Threshold Pace and how to determine STP.  In this section we will look at the various types of swim training and how to use your STP to calculate pace, intervals and send-off times.

Now that we have our STP number, let’s take a moment and look at the various types of swim endurance training and use the STP numbers that we determined earlier for Rick and Suzie to see how it all goes together.

There are different types of swimming endurance training –

Extensive Endurance – Long repetitions at a steady, comfortable pace.

Intermediate Endurance – Shorter repetitions that are closer to your race pace.

Intensive Endurance – Very hard efforts.  For stronger swimmers this will be below your race pace.

EXTENSIVE ENDURANCE TRAINING

You would exclusively do this type of training at the beginning of the season during your base build and then maybe once a week during the season.  This type of training uses long repetitions.  However, long does not mean race distance.  Repetitions of 200 are typical with perhaps an occasional set of 400 repetitions (no more than once every couple of weeks).  At the beginning of base training or if you are a newer swimmer, repetitions of 100 or even 50’s work well to begin to build swim fitness.  Extensive endurance intervals are done at STP + (5-10 seconds)/100.

The idea is to use repetitions of a distance that you find challenging but not maximal, with sufficient rest that you can repeat the effort.  You should be able to keep your breathing under control.  If a swimmer tries to swim too far or too fast in a single repetition, they would likely fade badly and their stroke technique would rapidly deteriorate.  You DO NOT want to train with poor technique!

An endurance training session for Rick, our newer swimmer might look something like this –

5 x 200 at a comfortable aerobic pace.  This should be 10-15 seconds per 100 yards slower than your STP with approximately 20-30 seconds rest/recovery between repetitions.  To determine the base pace take the target distance and divide by your STP.

Target Pace = (200 / 0.73) + 20 (add 10 seconds/100 for extensive endurance pace) = 294 seconds = 4:54/200.  From that, add your rest period, to arrive at an interval time.  4:54 + 30 seconds rest = 5:24 interval time.  Round that interval time to the nearest 0:05 to determine your send-off time = 5:25.  As your endurance increases, you begin to add repetitions.  The goal is to build to a total distance of 1.5 – 2.0 times your longest race distance in the upcoming season.

The key to extensive endurance training is hitting your target pace – that’s what that big clock at the end of the pool is for!  By the way, this will begin to teach you pacing which will benefit you on race day!

Now, let’s look at the same extensive endurance training session for Suzie –

Suzie is more experience so she will be swimming a longer workout – 10 x 200 at a comfortable aerobic pace with 20-30 seconds rest/recovery between repetitions.

Target Pace = (200/1.00) + 20 (add 10 seconds/100 for extensive endurance pace) = 220 seconds = 3:40/200.  Add rest period for interval time – 3:29 + 20 seconds rest (lower rest for more experienced) = 3:49, round to nearest 0:05 = 3:50 send-off time.

When you are able to maintain good technique and steady controlled breathing for 1.5 – 2.0 times the longest race distance in the upcoming season on a regular basis, you have begun to develop a good endurance capacity for your speed . . . now it’s time to work on going faster.

INTERMEDIATE ENDURANCE TRAINING

This type of endurance training is used after you have achieved a basic level of swim fitness.  The intensity you want for these training sessions is quite hard, although not an all-out maximal effort.  The pace should be “uncomfortably comfortable.”  Breathing should still be under control but in these sessions it is more difficult to maintain that control.  Developing endurance at this pace and intensity helps with the latter stages of your race swim and begins to develop speed.

Shorter repetitions are used for Intermediate Endurance Training with reduced rest periods.

An example of an Intermediate Endurance session using Rick’s STP –

20 x 100 at STP with 10-15 seconds rest.  As you become more proficient, add more repetitions and lower rest interval.

Target pace = 100/.73 = 137 seconds = 1:57.  Add 15 seconds rest for interval time = 2:13 interval, round to nearest 0:05 = 2:15 send-off.

As you progress through this set it will become increasingly difficult to maintain stroke technique and control your breathing.  Newer swimmers should attempt less repetitions to avoid stroke technique deterioration.

INTENSIVE ENDURANCE TRAINING

This type of training is developing speed and more importantly it is training your body to clear lactic acid from your bloodstream.  This is a VERY HARD session and you need to be technically very competent to gain the most benefit.  Otherwise you will find that your stroke technique will deteriorate as you fatigue and you will be missing interval times by increasingly wide margins.

The session might look something like this –

10 x 100 at 3-5 seconds below STP with 20 seconds rest.

This could develop into multiple sets in the same session.

2 x [10 x 100 at 3-5 seconds below STP with 20 seconds rest] and 2 minutes between sets.

Make no mistake, this is a MAXIMAL EFFORT!

The early part of this type of session you will feel pretty good because you are swimming a relatively short distance and have a sufficient rest period. However, by the time you get halfway through the set you will find that 20 seconds rest is just enough to get your breathing back under control. By the last couple of repetitions you will be gasping for breath as you start the next rep!

For Suzie, our stronger swimmer, the set pace and intervals would look something like this –

Target pace = 100/1.00 = 1:40 – 0:05 = 1:35/100.  Add 20 seconds rest = 1:55 interval.

PUTTING IT TOGETHER TO PLAN WORKOUTS

Your swim training sessions should include:

1. A warm-up (In addition to warming up paying particular attention to stroke technique is beneficial)
2. Drill – if and ONLY if they have been prescribed by a qualified coach/instructor
3. Optional kicking set
4. A main set (Target is 1.5-2.0 race distance)
5. Cool down

Prior to the beginning of the season the focus should be on building endurance so workouts should exclusively include Extensive Endurance Training.

Once endurance has improved to where the swimmer can comfortably swim at least 1.5 – 2.0 times the longest race distance of the upcoming race season while maintaining stroke technique and keeping breathing under control Intermediate Endurance sessions should be added each week.

Intensive Endurance sessions should be utilized once every other week and added once a week approximately 4-6 weeks before your ‘A’ race to develop speed.  This type of session should be removed from your workouts 2 weeks before your ‘A’ race.  This type of session is for stronger swimmers and will compare to a long time trial.  It is not a session you will want to do or should do often.

A typical mid-season training week for a moderate ability swimmer might include one Extensive Endurance session, one mixed Intermediate Endurance and Extensive Endurance session, and one Intermediate Endurance session.

As the swimmer progresses, he/she may add Intensive Endurance sessions as I described earlier.

Hi Julie, Glad you found your way here.  Don't think twice about finishing last.  This is your first tri and it is a learning experience just have fun.  You'll easily breaststroke the swim (and really savour the moment when you come out of the water) then you know you are going to bike and run well and then you can celebrate.  It will be a great learning experience.

Originally posted by noldowney Janet what other trail races do you have coming up. I have Psycho Wyco this weekend. Hope the weather stays nice, 40 - 50 would be great for trail running. First race of this year

I have the Castlewood Cup 15k this weekend, Shaw Bloom 20k on 3/25, and then the Ozark Foothills 25k on 4/8.  I'm hoping to eventually work my way up to a 50k race, but we'll have to see how that goes.  

I would love to do one of the Psycho Wyco races and now that Nick (our son) lives in the KC area, I may add that one to my calendar for next year.  Which distance are you doing?

Hey Chris,

I think I see the error.  Let's go through the math together -

400 @ 7:30 = 450 seconds

200 @ 3:15 = 196 seconds

(400-200)/(450-196) = 200/254 = 0.787

100/0.787 = 127.06 seconds = 2:07/100 (I think the mistake was you interpreted 127  as 1:27 - trust me, I did that more times than I care to recall)

I suspect 2:07 is actually slower than your true STP.  Another shortcoming of this test occurs when there is a large falloff in pace between the 400 and the 200.  Let me explain - if we look at your average pace for each of the time trials it is somewhat instructive.  For the 400 you averaged ~1:52/100.  For the 200 you averaged ~ 1:38/100.  That's a difference of 14-seconds per 100 between the 400 and the 200 which is a lot.   I don't know what kind of watch you used to record these times, but if you have a Garmin, you'll have 100 splits for both TT's.  I suspect for the 400 you started out closer to 1:35/100 and faded to ~2:00/100, for the 200, started at ~1:33-35 and faded to 1:40+ ish.  What all that mumbo-jumbo means is that you were likely anaerobic for both tests and deeply anaerobic during the 400.  The reason there is a 200 and a 400 TT is to account for the anaerobic component.  However, there's no delicate way to say this, for slower swimmers that don't have a well developed sense of pace, the test is skewed to the low side.

To compensate for that I "split the difference" between the 400 and 200 TT's.  1:52-1:38 = 0:14 seconds.  Half of that is 0:07 seconds.  1:38 + 0:07 = 1:45/100.  Then I take 20 seconds off of your calculated STP - 127 seconds - 20 = 107 seconds = 1:47.  I then average those two numbers and get 1:46/100.  When you look at that in light of your TT's it seems reasonable.  I would use 1:46/100 as your STP and retest in 6-weeks.  (Taking 20 seconds off of the calculated STP is based on over four decades of experience).

You're good!  No worries!

On the subject of your swimming, if you go to this link - http://triathlonswimcoach.com/index.php/en/resources/stroke-technique/31-novice/77-freestyle-from-the-beginning - I talk about freestyle from the very beginning.  I cover the fundamentals that most "adult onset" swimmers over-look or simply ignore.  Once you have those down, go to the top of the page and place your cursor over the "Resources" tab, then click on "Stroke Technique."  At the bottom of the page that opens you will see 'Sub Categories.'  Start with the 'beginner' articles, then move to the 'intermediate' articles, and finally the 'advanced' articles.

All of that reading will give you the "book knowledge" of what freestyle should look like.  Actually putting it into practice is a little more difficult.  There is absolutely no replacement for "eyes on deck" meaning a qualified coach or instructor.  

I am happy to answer any questions I can.

Today is a recovery day for me.  I cycled on Mon; swam and ran yesterday. 

During my swim yesterday I noticed at times I seemed to be going really, really slow and at other times my pace was definitely faster.  Somewhere in this it occurred to me with the faster pace, that my head was a bit 'lower' in the water than my norm.  Instead of looking 4'-6' ahead at the bottom, I was looking straight down.  In looking ahead, my head was not out of the water, just possibly tilted a bit.  I didn't have my swim watch so I couldn't time it to see the difference, but the tiles were definitely going by faster with the "head down" technique.

I realize that there are a thousand factors as to swim technique and speed ... how "lo" one swims in the water; are their shoulders flat, legs splayed, et al.  But this one little thing seems to have made a difference. 

Anyone care to offer an opinion on this?

Ciao ... Dorm

Hi Dorm, I'd want to hear what Scott has to say about your head down position making a difference in speed but I would think head down would speed you up at least a bit.  More likely though I would expect your head down position would raise your feet and therefore decrease the drag you get from having your feet lower in the water.  That would definitely make you faster.

Now I have to practice that in my next swim too.  Head and chest down, feet up.

George ... thanks for your comments and my thoughts were similar to yours as well.  With me looking forward slightly, it seemed to me that the tilted head might act like a rudder to raise my shoulders and chest slightly and at the same time lower my feet.  With me looking straight down, I could easily see the tiles moving by faster.  I'd like to see what Scott has to say on this too. 

I rode with my SIL up in Virginia today and dang ... I am sooo out of shape.  This was my first road ride for the year and a lot of the secondary roads in the Roanoke, Va. area have the "heavy" road surface.  Still, it was slow ... glad it's early in the season.

Dorm

Hey Dorm,

Generally your head should be looking more down towards the bottom than forward.  Here's a picture so you can see proper head position.  Be aware, you can have your head too low.

The picture accurately represents what happens when your head is too high - your hips and legs drop which increases drag and slows you down.

(correct_incorrect.png)

Chris, you made the comment earlier, "I cant do below 1.40 very many times."

That tells me your threshold is higher than 1:40.  Remember that swim training with STP isn't about speed, at least not at first.  Swimming at or slightly above your threshold will increase your threshold - meaning you can swim faster while staying aerobic.  Once you have a solid aerobic base built, then you transition over to intermediate endurance sets to begin building speed.  About 6-weeks out from your race(s) you add an intensive endurance set or two each week to really focus on speed.  A little know fact is that once you have a solid base, building speed to your then current max capacity only takes 5-6 weeks.

Chris,

The problem for most people is when you swim slower, your hips and legs tend to drop; because of that, swimming at the slower pace is wonderful to help you improve your balance in the water.  A little tip, arching your back will help keep your legs from dropping.

As to the pace.  That's part of what STP training is doing.  It's teaching you a sense of pace.  You should be either using the pace clock (if there's one on deck) or checking with your watch.  If you went to fast, slow down on the next one.  If you went to slow, speed up on the next one.  By diligently checking pace and making adjustments, you will develop a very accurate sense of pace which will help on race day.