Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread (Page 125)

I would say no!

flat course allows for no rest.  LP you can have several points in the course where you have plenty of zeros...as in zero power and zero cadence, yet still go 30+ MPH.

the difference between the two, IMO having never done any, is it takes more discipline at LP.

tapered, rested, you're gonna feel like a million bucks coming out of T1....those first few climbs are gonna feel so easy.  chances are you'll be pushing beyond your training paces without even knowing it....

my thinking is when it feels really easy, go one more gear easier.

so, when you hear people say, LP is SOOO much harder because of the hills, its probably because they were pushing WAY MORE watts than they should have, so the perception is there.  Where a course like FL, its easier in the sense that you dont have to change up your gearing as much.  Based on the elevatin of placid, you can probably ride it at a level output/effort.....there are not many MOSNTER climbs that force you to go 300+ watts....but several will go there.



Edited by cusetri 2010-05-13 10:44 AM

I think it depends on your strengths as a cyclist, where you live and can train, and how you train.

I met the guy that won IMLP in '07 at a kids race as he was volunteering. We chatted for awhile a couple times throughout the morning.

He DNFed IMFL the same year he won IMLP. He thought IMFL bike was harder as there was no rest on the bike course. He was a slight built guy and I suspect super climber on the bike.

LP's run course has to be brutal compared to FL, right?  Or are you guys just talking about the bike leg?

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While this is a good post, I have another opinion. 
 
This is going to open up a bag of worms.
 
While bombing down the Keene decent I hit over 50 mph.  Mostly under power except for a few sweeping turns and some steep straight where I would spin out at over 120 RPM’s in my 12/53.  I didn’t use the same effort as going up hills and I was able to recover a bit.  So there are periods of (zeros) no recorded data.  It’s all a wash because my efforts going up are much greater.  SO I get a balance.
 
Here are my LP bike splits from 09’ 
 

BIKE SPLIT 1: 36 mi.	36 mi. (1:35:39)	22.58 mph
BIKE SPLIT 2: 56 mi.	20 mi. (1:06:04)	18.16 mph
BIKE SPLIT 3: 92 mi.	36 mi. (1:42:15)	21.12 mph
BIKE SPLIT 4: 112 mi.	20 mi. (1:12:44)	16.50 mph

 
Second loop the wind picked up so I would dare to say,the splits are pretty damm close!  Even without the added resistance of the wind.  Granted it a tough to pace perfectly but for a several minutes (7min) difference between related splits is not too shabby.  Fred pace just as well.
 
 
If I go 50mph down hill at 150w @120 RPM’s that gets washed or averaged out by going 15mph up hill at 300w @70 RPM’s.  This is just an example and I doubt my calculations are correct.  At some point you need 1 constant like, RPM’s, MPH, Power or what ever. 
 
Point I am trying to make is a course like LP is a lot of variations (I was going to say ups and downs) in RPM’s, MPH, Power or what ever for the durations with true efforts of hard and easy.  A course like IMFL it’s more constant effort RPM’s, MPH, Power or what ever the entire time. 
 
So I would totally agree with a person I respect very much on BT.  I think Kathy is about the most accurate in her response as to whether which course is the hardest. 
 
To me it’s all just apples and oranges and who really cares, but some of you will find out soon enough.  The end.




Edited by tasr 2010-05-13 2:58 PM

you are right james!  A HUGE bag.

maybe I mis-read, with all due respect, 150 W at 50 MPH could be a waste of energy; especially on a 112 mile course.  Figure out what that 150 W is giving you, and at 120 RPM you are throwing away a TON of energy....once you hit a some of these decents, you should be taking the time to rest, if the conditions allow for it.   MAYBE you pick up 1-2 minutes spinning down the Keene decent....that's 2-4.5 seconds per mile on the run...worth it?  Now figure out the amount of rest you are getting by coasting down it....its got to be minutes we're talking here....so, you are resting minutes while traveling 30-40+ mph...I say do it.


300W up hill is WAY too much, unless that is what 60-70 RPM in your easiest gear is producing, than you got to do what you go to do.

I just dont see many climbs at LP that force you to 300 watts....at least on paper.

your power/weight ratio is pretty close to mine, and I would imagine for a half you would be around 230-250 watts (No reason to go much above that for an IM race unless you are forced to due to the grade of the climb.)

these are just my thoughts and I understand I've never done it, but based on my thoughts above, a couple bullets from my bike plan is to:

-cap my effort on climbs, do not go over HIM watts at all unless forced to (I run out of gears)
-rest while speed is high (conserve my energy stores! we will ALL run out of energy stores and can only replace so many with gels/power bars....we will need to use fat at some point, why burn through the good stuff going 50 mph?)

EDIT:  I just realized I dont think you race with power, and your example above are probably hypothetical.....

so, I didnt mean to analyze as if it were fact.....that being said, I would agree that spinning at 120 watts probably is around 150-170 watts, and that energy is better saved for other areas of the race.





Edited by cusetri 2010-05-13 3:37 PM

I suspect for me IMFL will be a heck of a lot easier than IMLP's bike course. Well let me add not IM is easy. As I've raced over the years, I do much better on flat courses that I can keep constant watts and I place much higher on flat courses. On a flat course power/weight ratio isn't as much of a factor more your FTP or power at threshold and your drag is king unlike LP where power/weight ratio is key.

For folks that have higher FTP the time difference between courses is much less than those with lower FTP. Most of the women I know locally 40 & up that have done both FL and LP are about hour slower at LP than Fl on the bike. Does that mean it's easier? Not sure but it's faster for many.

My goal is IM is to never have my power go over 80-85% of my FTP. There are a few spots on the LP course where that is tough for me so having a couple of easier gears would help me keep under that watt goal. Lake Placid I used 34-28 quite a bit and could have used a 34-30 or 34-33 to keep up my watt cap. With higher FTP and/or lower body weight that would be easy for many folks to do keep under their watt cap. Men often have FTPs 50-100 watts higher than women.

I still like the Lake Placid course as it is beautiful and the descents are awesome! I'm planning to do RI70.3 so I can sign up for '11 LP without having to worry about in person or on line sign ups.

They are all hard....it's Ironman, right? Difficulty level aside, times don't lie and times for Fl are typically (not guaranteed) 30-60 min faster. Doesn't that make some kind of difference at the end of the day?

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At IMFL in 08 my legs felt fan-frickin-tastic which is probably why I went out too fast and paid for it on the second loop.

At IM Japan last year the hills kicked my butt and my run was not on par.  I then had some GI issues so I don't really know how that one would have ended. 

I know my inexperience played a huge part as I had never climed anything significant until 5 months before IMJ.  I was brand new to cycling and lived in FL.

Edited by papson14 2010-05-13 6:14 PM

First OWS of the season tonight. Doesn't matter how much I have been swimming, that first OWS is always tough! 65 degrees so not so bad temp wise. 3 quick laps to get used to the wetsuit again. Also forgot how your head spins coming out of the cold water afterwards!

I have a tri next weekend...I imagine the water is in the 50* range somewhere....brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I know the feeling, after my first OWS of this season, it took me about 5 minutes to get my land legs back under me.

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I agree with Fred on the above.

the course is not the limiter......pacing is.

alan couzens wrote a cool blog post about being fitness limited or nutrition limited.....good read and kind of ties in to what we are discussing.  Running out of glycogen is the limiter for all of us at an IM...so conserve it!

on another note, whats on tap for the weekend?  I have a long ride and long run, than recovery week, which is needed!!

also gonna convert my bike to 10 speed and going to an 11-28 cassette....pumped for that...I could use the 11 and the 28 on some of my rides out here, plus I think the 28 will be great to have in LP!!

BRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

thats gonna be COLD!!!!......

I am going to give you a answer on June 13th around 12pm 'ish

I am doing a Century ride tomorrow for an ALS charity. Still injured. Left toe continues to crack and bleed with any kind of running. It started two weeks ago during a long run. After that I backed off for 9 days with no running. On Tuesday I ran for 40 minutes on the treadmill and it bled again and caused me pain. I am totally bummed but am doing the mature thing and going to see a foot specialist at Columbia next week. I think total rest may be in the forecast since the skin opens up every time I try to run. Looks like I'll be focusing more on swimming and biking for a little while.....Ugh!

A little late to the party, but I thought I would opine on the flat vs. hilly course discussion. Having done flat, IMAZ, and moderatley hilly, Hawaii, I would say they aren't that much different. I didn't "feel" any better or worse on the bike at either race, I simply rode at my designated "effort" which always "feels" the same to me. I would hold that effort both ascending and descending and adjust accordingly. If a climb was very steep, it would certainly slow down pace, but I could stil manage the same effort. Big downhills would be more difficult to do that and would provide some recovery, but I think it's sort of a push.

Yeah, don't panic.  I hate to climb....& i love the LP course.  It's totally fine.  There's one part I'm not real fond of (Jay to the start of the out & back), but even that is fine.  Really.  Getting back into town it's very gradual and flattens out in enough places that it's not that big of a deal.  You will ride it & be surprised.  Unless you're out of shape like i currently am and then it will suck.  But if you get miles in on the bike like you should, take loop 1 easier than you think you should, it's really fine.

The LP bike course is my favorite 56 miles I've ever rode in my whole life.  Not to say it comes anywhere close to my love for the swim.  But there's nothing that drags on about it.  The time flies by b/c the course is broken up into very distinct sections.
1.  Climbs out of town.
2.  Keene descent.  This is so badass & so gorgeous with the water on your right.
3.  Flat part to Jay.
4.  Jenn's not so favorite part Jay to out & back.  OTOH, it's probably tasr's favorite.  I save my choc mint deliciousness gu for the end of this as a little reward.  But really, even this, not hard if you just chill. 
5.  Out & back rollers.
6.  Slow gradual climb back to town. 
7.  Cherries & bears at the end that if you paced right are no big deal.  In my blow up training ride these were a big deal on loop 2.  But again, for someone in shape & who paced well, no big deal at all.

Voila!

No freak outs needed.  Course looks worse on paper as you said.

Sad news... 6cyclists were struck by a pickup truck near sherbrooke quebec... 5female and 1male... 3 have passed away from their injuries... they were part of st lambert triathlon club...

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/justice-et-faits-divers/201005/14/01-4280416-accident-a-rougemont-trois-cyclistes-tuees.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=cyberpresse_B4c_video_1086353_accueil_POS2

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