The "No Kids Club" (Page 13)

I'm not going for harshness or lightness.  My concern was with accurately depicting why I generally dislike kids.  The words I typed are an accurate depiction of my feeling toward most kids I come accross.  We're trying to have an actual conversation and good natured debate.  Attacking other people's wording when they're trying to explain their point of view doesn't help anything along.  For some reason you've chosen me to attack, which I'm fine with, but if you don't have anything to add to the conversation, then please don't chime in. 

it could be just me, but it seems that the "No-Kid-Club" at least here on BT feel liek they're being judge by us others and I don't think that's the case, or the reason for the OP

you're all very defensive and the OP was written purely for discussion purposes...

the thing that bothers me is that the people that are taking the brunt of the damage are "children"... and that's a shame.

As calling children nothing but consumers of resource can be considered judgmental.  As trite as it may sounds children are the future of out society and culture.  They, as a whole, have value to society.  That being said each individual makes their choice based on what is important to them.  I have only one and I cannot have any more.  Would I choose to have more if I could? maybe, maybe not but the choice would be mine to make and I don't think I have ever been worried about what others might think of that choice.

Well it's definitely going both ways in this thread.

I'm enjoying the discussion, but am irritated that some are taking things overly personally. If I post "Most kids are annoying to me" I am not necessarily talking about YOUR kids. But even if I was, that's an opinion I'm entitled to, no?

As a dog-owner, if someone said to me "Most dogs are annoying to me".... even though I whole-heartedly share a different opinion, I really can't fault them for feeling the way they do (it's not a BAD thing for chrissake- just a different like/dislike than me). And I sure as heck ain't gonna change their opinion.

BTW, "annoying" is pretty subjective too.

But as Bikerrgirl said - your "You dont know what you're missing" arguement is what makes us so.  Its a viscous circle.  Any smart caring and reasonable person knows the sacrifices it takes to raise a child because you are responsible for someones else life other than your own.  - for many, those sacrifices are worth it.  To some, Its not.  Just like getting up at 5am to work out is not worth it to most, but many people here are willing to make that sacrifice because the rewards outweigh the negative. 

Just like 'you' are not being judgmental, (like we sometimes perceive) 'we' are not always being defensive either (as you perceive)  We just find that more explanation is needed on our end as to why we're not having kids as to why you are. 

A joke I say to people - "The best form of birth control is hanging out at a walmart parking lot at Christmas time" 

this thread is far from a conversation anymore, I've been following it since the beginning when it was pretty civilized.

I'm attacking your particular post(s) and not you. That's where this whole thread got out of hand. I think the NKC is misconstruing the BT parents joy at having kids as somehow attacking the lifestyle chosen by the NKC and that's not the case.

All I said was that you could have used less hostile wording to describe your feelings towards "children" and still got your point across.

In a nutshell, yes.  Our energy (call it a soul if you will) is always there and forever gaining knowledge.  So when I die, I will go back into the ether and wait to be reborn.  The cycle is never ending.  Where I end up, that is the question.  Not if.

I really haven't seen that in this thread, especially those words...

The parents are just expressing their own joy that their children have given them and it's being misinterpreted

You don't have to agree with it. It was Andrews's opinion. I'm pretty sure all of us don't like/dislike the exact same things, and there are people out there who one of us may find annoying, while someone else loves to death.

I think it's natural to get a little defensive when we get used to doing it on a daily basis.  I actually think the conversation here has stayed fairly civil. 

Unfortunately it's a difficult topic to discuss openly without saying things that can be misinterpreted.  For example, I explain that I find most kids to be very annoying as one of my reasons for not having one and people project that as an attack on children.  It's most definitely not an attack on anyone, but is instead a general statement on my interactions with kids as a whole. 

It's also important to separate the concept of kids as a whole and 'your' specific child.  As a whole, children are extra people in a rapidly growing world.  Each of those children is an individual who has value, but as a whole, it may (or may not) be great for our species population to be growing so fast.  Completely different concepts.

Anyway, I find this to be a fascinating conversation and hope that we can keep it a friendly debate/conversation.  Those folks being very critical of others posts and including 'zingers' aren't helping.  Otherwise there are some very good points of view in here!

You are taking what I said totally out of context.

But as Bikerrgirl said - your "You dont know what you're missing" arguement is what makes us so.  Its a viscous circle.  Any smart caring and reasonable person knows the sacrifices it takes to raise a child because you are responsible for someones else life other than your own.  - for many, those sacrifices are worth it.  To some, Its not.  Just like getting up at 5am to work out is not worth it to most, but many people here are willing to make that sacrifice because the rewards outweigh the negative. 

Just like 'you' are not being judgmental, (like we sometimes perceive) 'we' are not always being defensive either (as you perceive)  We just find that more explanation is needed on our end as to why we're not having kids as to why you are. 

A joke I say to people - "The best form of birth control is hanging out at a walmart parking lot at Christmas time" 

Semantics - thats basically one of the first things I hear all the time - that and "you'll change your mind"  Its a common 'argument'  that many in the NKC will attest too. 

And to the ones that are expressing their joy of parenthood and saying their life wouldnt be the same and are happy etc - Thank you.  Youre adding to the discussion, and hopefully seeing 'our' side a bit more clearly.

Like I said - we have to explain our position more adamantly than those that have kids so we are constantly put on the defensive, or the perception of being so. 

We have to have a reason - parents dont

this post was on the first page and you can't tell me as a member of the NKC that you wouldn't take that as a "you don't know what you're missing" argument, but I can almost assure you that all he was expressing was the joy that his daughter has bought him... that's it...

"I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now).  For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing.  I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it."

agreed and understood...

Earnest question: How could I have worded my statement differently?  I'm an engineer/scientist, so my use of words is usually focused on being as clear and descriptive as possible.  Maybe you could help me out as my intent obviously didn't come accross.

I was trying to explain exactly why I dislike kids as a whole, and why that doesn't mean I hate all humans.  I was trying to communicate that most normal people have met other people they dislike; sometimes because they don't have anything in common and find their personality irritating or something similar.  For me, children fall into that category.  That's not to say all children are bad, but because I find them very irritating and annoying to be around I find my general dislike is justified.  That's not being harsh, it's just reality.  I'm not attacking children, just stating that I find them annoying and choose not to spend time around them.  This does not make me a bad person or a misantrhope.

I personally dont have a chip on my shoulder because of my decision not to have kids, but i can understand why others do and feel that way.  When you comment to people that you have kids and bring out their pictures all you hear are compliments, on the other hand if someone that decided to not have kids shares their decision, most of the time what that person gets are weird looks and condesending comments.  I honestly don't appreciate when someone tells me i dont know what i'm missing, and assume i'm a selfish person because of my decision.

Ill give you a perfect example, a thread was started for people with kids, and a lot of Bters have been sharing pictures of hteir families, which by the way you all have beautiful families, but you haven't seen anyone comment on that thread saying you dont know the vacations you are missing, or the spontaneous trips, or night out with friends, etc.

dislike is a harsh word... irritating and annoying would have been more appropriate because kids are!!

even saying "they drive you crazy when you're around them" would have been fine I think

the "engineering" career explains it all!!!  

Do you "generally dislike" other classes of people as a whole because you've been annoyed by the ones you've met?

I suppose in full disclosure I should state that I really don't like the term "annoying". "I am annoyed" is taking accountability. "You/they are annoying" is blaming others.

i agree with you about the other thread but it is not a "discussion" thread and is even stated in the OP that it is for those BT'ers with kids

YES. See my post. No matter how my kids I had people were not happy. I get comments every single time I go to the grocery store. I choose to take them as compliments but it is obvious by the way they are said they are jabs. I do my best to turn it around because I am stunned at the comments some people make in front of my children.

Everyone gets judged. We have received very harsh comments from my ILs and my own sister about our choices so yes, it comes from family as well.

This does not make it fair but I do think it is important for the folks who choose not to have kids and feel judged/picked on that those of us who have kids are judged/picked on as well.  The only difference is our kids have to hear it too.

I won't say 'you will change your mind or you don't know what you are missing' simply because I don't want the folks who don't want kids to have kids. They have a right to that decision I just hope they take care of things. I know someone who did not want kids, everyonne knew he did not want kids, good enough guy. He is married and she knows he does not want kids but she got pregnant and now they have a child. Marriage is not good, he takes it out on her and this poor baby. He did not take care of things. He didn't get a vasectomy or wear a condom and now others are suffering because he couldn't take responsibility.

I understand those feelings but in all honesty "defending positions" was not the original intent of the thread...

and I don't think anybody "deliberately intended" to question the motives of the NKC but eventually the NKC began defending...

again, I understand...

But that is what normally happens, it doesnt matter if it up for "discussion" or not.  People that follow the traditional path and have kids don't have to constantly put up with the negative comments and the condesending attitude of those that have a different opinion.  Just trying to perhaps help you understand why some people have a chip on their shoulder, it gets tiring.  You have no idea what i had to put up with when a year ago i decided to have a vasectomy, i was even called an idiot because i'm not married and perhaps i change my mind.

Awesome post Jazz.  To piggy-back on that, unfortunately, the weak-minded get swayed by that "peer/family pressure" and often have children they didn't really want to have.  And yeah, that still makes me sad!  Honestly, if I was in your shoes as a member of the NKC I would likely sever ties with morons that gave me static like that.