Experior and Slornow's Winter Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 14)

Michael - While I know I can improve significantly in all 4 disciplines (yes 4, I count transition....), I feel swimming is the most important area for me to improve right now, and I am definitely thinking about my swim a lot.  While running form, and being efficient on the bike are certainly important, IMO swimming is the most technique driven area of the sport.  I think that after you have attained a certain level of proficiency and technique in the swim, the amount of training time necessary to achieve increased gains is disproportionate to the actual return on investment you will see come race day.  So, I feel that after I achieve a certain level of proficiency on the swim, I will definitely still put in the yardage necessary to race the distance, but will not put the abundance of training time into the swim.  I have heard it said you don't win the race on the swim, and I think this is true (although you certainly can lose it on the swim).  In March and November I want to have a good swim, and then I want to have a great bike, and a strong run.  Just my thoughts as I head into the longer distances.  I am VERY open to other's opinions.  

x2

Swimming is my "strong" discipline, so I definitely see things from a different perspective.  Can't help it.  When one spends most of their youth doing laps, and no running, swimming feels like the natural sport.  Intellectually, I know otherwise, but understand my perspective when you read my comments.  Running is work for me... I keep thinking I'm missing some important techniques / form that will improve my performance, much like non-swimmers feel about swimming.  Maybe that is just how we view the "other" sports :-)

a) I spent some time early on looking at relative rankings of the split times vs. overall ranking in some local races.  High correlation on the bike and run and weak on the swim.  Lots of reasons for that, but I came to the conclusion that one's swim TIME was not a strong driver of one's finish place. 

b) Now, it did get me thinking about other underlying drivers and three came to mind that would also drive this result:  weight, endurance, and upper body strength.  There are probably others.  So, if you're heavier, it doesn't make that much difference on your swim performance, but (from personal experience), it really affects your run.  If you're generally not in good shape endurance-wise, it won't show up on the swim (relative to the others), but really clobbers you as the race continues on.  If you have great upper body strength, that is an asset on the swim, but of practically no use and due to extra weight, probably a detriment as the race goes on.

c) Ultimately, it comes down to the (individual) question, where is the best place to put limited training hours to improve your performance?  If you've maxed out your potential on the bike and the run or if you're very weak on the swim, then I would think the swim would be a good place to spend some time.  For me, if I trained daily on the swim and upped my workouts, I could probably cut 5-10 seconds off my 100 pace, which adds up to a couple of minutes for an OLY or HIM.  Honestly, I'd be better off improving my sighting! (but that's a different topic).  But, in order to put in that effort (subtracting bike/run training), I would easily lose an hour in the bike/run portion in an HIM and probably 30 minutes in an OLY.  So that's an easy call trade-off for my particular situation. 

d) On top of that, I find I can get back to about 90% of my normal tri swimming conditioning in about 3 weeks of training (if I haven't swum in a few months).  Not the case in the other two disciplines.  Whether that is due to my background or the sport, I can't say.  My guess would be some of both.

That being said, unlike many folks in here (lol), I really enjoy swimming (if I'm not sharing my lane with some wild breastroker who stakes out his territory through the width of his kicking or any of the other various pool challenges that Michael has faced over the years).  It doesn't kill my knees or hurt my feet, etc.  My muscles and joints feel so much better after swimming than biking, or especially running.  For some reason, though, it does stimulate my appetite more than the other sports.  Not sure what that's about. 

Stu

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.  I have two motivations for trying to improve my swim.  The first is that I just think it would be fun to be able to swim fast.  The second is that I think, for me, race performance is currently limited by my swim.  In the local races, I come out of the water a couple of minutes behind the leaders, and my day is basically over at that point.  I raced 'open division' in our local series this past year, and spent nearly every bike and run in no-man's land -- at or near the back of the fast guys, but ahead of all the 'AGers'.  (I use scare quotes because we're all AGers in these races -- the open division is self-selected, though there is some peer pressure.)  If I want to compete, I need to come out of the water at least sniffing the front of the race.

Oh my.  I just had my first sip of a wonderful Turkish coffee.  Today is going to be a good day.

You know, that is an important consideration at your level for sure.  Being part of the pack / in the hunt will have an impact on your performance on the bike/run. 

Just for fun, I'll say the opposite is also true... getting passed by everyone on the bike / run was really demotivating to me my first couple of years where I'd be top 1/4 on the swim and bottom 1/4 overall.  I've found that as I've backed off the swim a bit, I'm coming out of the water in a little more appropriate position for me (and my bike/run have improved too).  Makes the experience much better overall :-)

Cool!  That's a long swim for an indoor race.  Nice.  If you can take a nap during lunch on Friday, it will help with feeling fresh that evening.

Just back from a much-needed ride.  The foot feels sort of OK -- tonight will be more of an indication.   I'm off again for a meeting then a swim and pool run.

Rene -- you should complain!  I believe that some of the perennially late starters in our series did just that a few years ago, and now they mix it up every race (well, every race that has wave starts), except that the open division always goes first.  I do think starting at the back can slow one down a little, because inevitably there are a few moments on the bike where you have to ease up to get around congestion.  And there is nobody back there whom you can (or anyway want to) legally draft or slingshot.  The same thing happens on multi-loop courses if you at the FOP on the bike.  We have one here in town, and by the third loop the course is a bit of a mess no matter where you started.  I actually think that starting somewhere near, but not at, the front is probably fastest.

I'm loving all the tips you all give for the swimming and biking.

Xterra bike course this morning. This time I'm bringing some cleaning water, more towels, and my cooler with a couple cans coconut water for after the ride. Going to stick my camera in my bike shirt for some pictures too.

Have a great evening!

Stu..I was looking at your post and you and I are probably in the same boat in alot of ways and I totaly agree with you thoughts.  Relatively speaking, the swim is my strongest discipline.  I went back and checked my last sprint and last Oly and sure enough as the race went further on my place in the pack decreases.  Out of my age group in my recent OLY (2010) I came out of the water in 9th out of 35 in my age group (45-49); on the bike it was 28th and run 29th.  My first year I spent a lot of time swimming just because I hadn't been swimming but took to it pretty fast.  I think my biggest need for improvement is the bike and if I was to lose 23 lbs. I am sure my times would improve biking and running.  In my last sprint, I got third out of 5 in my age group.  The distance to second was something like 8 min 45 sec. and 4th place was back about 6 min.  As the race went on I slowly went from 9th out of 45 total in the swim (4 of the top 10 swim times were from my age group) to 17 on the bike to 32 on the run.  One hill on the bike slowed me down on the way back and the run was a pretty hilly one.  I tend to do real well with my Transition Times as I practice them quite a bit before a race (easy found time).  Biggest improvements for me will be on the bike.

Hello everyone-Lots of great discussion on the swim.  Been able to follow but not post.  Finally home from Oxford, MS and have some swim thoughts I want to organize and post.  Brian, you have me wondering about where I was in races on the swim as compared to bike and run.  Want to look back on some results.

Michael-my son said that the training facility at Ole Miss had a water treadmill.  Basically, a treadmill submerged in a small pool.  The treadmill could be raised or lowered to different depths to change the amount of stress on the athlete while running.....the deeper the treadmill the less stress/weight on the legs/feet.  How cool would that be!

Randy     

So here's a race that Randy and I did in 2010, and pretty much indicates my personal problem on the swim.

Age group numbers (overall is very similar):

Swim: 40/153

Bike: 2/153

Run: 4/153

Overall was 5/153, so yeah, the swim doesn't exactly count for much (and this was an Olympic distance race), but if I could have swum with the leaders, I would have been on the podium no problem.

And yes, the water treadmill sounds very cool.  I've also fantasized about having access to one of these (a zero gravity treadmill):

I think for most triathletes, myself included, we will initially focus on those disciplines in which we can  improve the quickest.  Generally, running and biking more will result  in pretty significant improvements.  There isn't much to worry about with technique and most of us grew up running and biking.  Just swimming more may result in some level of improvement but I believe there is more of a ceiling on how much you can improve without good technique.  When is the last time you heard of someone getting a cycling or running lesson? Of course people do that but for most people it is more natural that swimming  Swim lessons....that's pretty much always considered to be necessary for someone with no structured swim background if they really want to improve.  Those folks that did swim team growing up that begin doing triathlons when they get older have the benefit of years of training and that "muscle memory" quickly returns.  I have contempt for these individuals as they make swimming look so effortless. Stu, I'll give you a pass since you are such a good guy!  

Over the past 3 years I have been looking for the best way to spend my training time to get better race results.  The "low hanging fruit" has been on the bike and to a lesser extent on the run.  More time in the pool might only result in a 1-2 minute improvement at an olympic distance race while there were potentially larger gains to be made through incresed bike/run fitness.

For me, after 3 years of training the potential gains to be made with biking/running more become smaller.  Certainly, there is still room for improvement but now I'm looking at other ways to place better so I turn to the swim.  It sounds like that's kind of where others are as well.  As Michael described, to get on the podium in larger more competitive events, you can't spot your competition a head start coming out of the water. A strong bike and run might not be enough to overcome the deficit.

I'm sure this is not news to anyone but it is something I have been reflecting on the last couple of days.  I want to become a more confident/competent/efficient swimmer.  I may not gain "alot" of time but may be able to exit the water after a more comfortable effort with a lower HR.  That could certainly help on the bike.

I'll post my results for the last 2 years.  I was a bit surprised that my swim placing wasn't as bad as I expected.  However, I suspect that is a more of a reflection on the quality of triathlete swimmers than anything positive about by swim performance.  Here goes:

2011

Traditions Sprint                   AG 3/14                Swim 4/14            Bike 1/14           Run 5/14

Mullett Man Sprint                AG 2/20                 Swim 2/20           Bike 2/20           Run 2/20

Peachtree Oly                      AG 7/50                 Swim 11/50         Bike 4/50           Run 16/50 (USAT SE Regional-felt this was actually my best run of the year)

Grandman Sprint                 AG 5/47                 Swim 16/47         Bike 4/47           Run 6/47

Chattanooga Oly                 AG 21/83               Swim 17/83         Bike 17/83         Run 22/83  (worst run of year-died!)

Super Sprint                      Masters 1/36           Swim 4/36           Bike 2/36           Run 1/36 (lots of first timers)

2010

Chattanooga Oly                AG 22/89                Swim 25/89         Bike 21/89        Run 23/89 (USAT SE Regionals)

HH Oly                                AG 8/23                  Swim 12/23         Bike 3/23          Run 8/23

USAT AG Natl. Oly               AG 50/69                Swim 53/69         Bike 45/69        Run 48/69 (A real eye opener about the quality of the top AG competitors)

Ironstar HIM                       AG 14/43                Swim 16/43         Bike 12/43        Run 11/43

Hopefully, a relatively injury free 2011 has allowed my run to catch up a bit and will be stronger in 2012 races. Right now I'm going to put in extra time on the swim and get some instruction to see if I can improve a bit.

Randy

Trust me, Randy, I don't make it look effortless :-)  It is only that compared to my run, my swim looks good.  And frankly it is pretty discouraging relative to 34 years ago (hardly shocking).  I've got to say that your relative rankings look like what I would like for mine (meaning well balanced... I'll never be that high).  I do think the advice might be different for a MoPer like me than a FOPer like you and Michael.  Smaller differences in time can mean the difference between podium or not (or 1st or not).  You just can't afford to be weak on anything at that level.  For MoP, there's alot more low hanging fruit on the bike and run (just my opinion) once you get to a "I'm not going to drown" level on the swim.  But again, I'm definitely biased and there's much to be said for wanting to be proficient in all three (four) disciplines just because, well, you want to be a TRI athlete and because you want to come out of the water "warmed up" instead of "wiped out".

I'll also concur with Michael that a good reason to work on the swim is to improve the bike.  In fact, I found that by relaxing more on the swim, it contributed to my improved bike times - hardly scientific and there were probably other contributing factors, but I know my first couple of years, I spiked my heart rate on the swim going out too fast and I had some trouble at the beginning of the bike (and transitions, for that matter).  Now I focus on just consistent moderate effort, good glide, and I even do backstroke about 25% of the time (not recommending that for others).  Doesn't seem to have hurt my swim time much and I think it has helped the rest of the race.

Okay, I'm done with swim talk ;-)  (for tonight at least)  Question for you runners.  I really struggle with hills.  It's not like I don't run them... we've got plenty around us and I try to do one serious hill run each week, but my pace drops off like 3-4 min./mile on them and they take a bunch out of me.  Any recommendations for exercises / weights or workouts that might help?  Technique?  And yes, I know, I could stand to lose 15 lbs or so :-)

Stu

Got in a good hard ride today and goofed off in the pool for a short time.  Felt good to ride like a roadie again...attacking...responding to attacks...and basically riding till you feel like puking.

As far as the swim discussion...I think bryancd said it best in a previous discussion.  The single biggest limiter for AGers is not the swim, nor the bike, not the run, core strength, nutrition, etc.  It's simply TIME.  We don't have enough time during the day to work on everything we want to and still live normal lives.  So you have to pick the lowest hanging fruit. 

Stu, the slowdown is what it is, but it does sound like you aren't doing it right.  You should be maintaining your effort as you run the hill (except if you are specifically doing hill repeats, or have some specific strategic reason during a race).  

Many people overstride on hills (both up and down), even if they don't do so on the flats.  So the first thing I'd check is for overstriding.  Indeed, if anything, in order to keep the effort even while going up, you should focus on keeping quite a short stride.  

Second, I'd look to be sure that you are keeping good upright posture.  Many people 'hunch' into the hill (and this tendency is associated with trying to go too hard).  A slight lean is OK, but your upper body should be straight, not bent at the waist.

Stu-agree with Michael's post on running hills.  Running down hill seems pretty simple but as Michael pointed out you don't want to overstride.  If you do you are essentially braking a bit with each foot strike and putting alot of force into your leg.  I try to remember to lean my body forward a bit (not just at the waist) and keep my foot strike close to being directly under my body.  I think that leads to a shorter more quick turnover and my legs don't feel the pounding of a hard downhill. 

Trainer ride this morning and headed to pool for short swim with some drill work. Hope everyone enjoys their day.

Randy 

The weather got nasty yesterday, so Xterra course ride took detours to avoid the mud bog. Did all of the hills outside of it though. So proud of myself for only walking up this one hill that is like climbing a wall. I will own that hill soon. Every ride I have progress and am learning how to use the gears properly. Don't know how far we went as we played the ride by ear, but we were riding for about two hours. Great workout.

Tonight is swim team. Long swim night.

I thought I would check my placing of my races and well noticed that my swim is not my weakest link, although it is still weak compared to others it turns out the bike is.  I have to admit lack of consistency in training has not helped and I did not train outside much last year.   

So now the question I have to myself, to the group also if any of you have an opinion to share, is do I keep my current maintenance plan of 3S-3B-3R and focus on being consistent with my training which I know will result in better performance, or do I create a new plan with bike focus which would greatly increase my performance on the bike.  If I go to bike focus I would need to drop one of my other workouts (run or swim).  I would think dropping a run with be best since it would save my legs for the bike and it is my strongest of the three.   I could also stick with current plan but add weight training twice a week.   That option may not be the best because that adds two extra workouts for which I would need to find time for, which brings a higher rate of inconsistency.  So many more options I can list.    

Sylvain-I'll give it a shot.  It looks like your main race is a HIM in June so my suggestions are based on that.  In the HIM distance the swim is not much greater than in the olympic distance which you did last year.  However, the bike and run in the HIM are more than 2X longer than the olympic distance.  You already know all that but I would lean toward putting more time into the bike since that will be the longest discipline, by time, in the HIM.  The swim is such a small percentage of the actual race time in the HIM I would look to possibly drop a swim workout and focus more on the bike and maybe even try to get an extra run in every week or two.  I suspect your swim time in the race will be practically the same whether you do 2 or 3 workouts a week.....especially true if the race will be wet suit legal.  I would not cut any bike or run workouts and would try to add if possible.  I don't do any weight training as I feel that my time is better spent doing S/B/R if my goal is to improve in those.  I know there is value to weight training but if time is limited then I'd do as much bike and run as possible and look for maintaining with the swim.

This brings me to something else I've been thinking about.  Should we race to our strengths? For weaker/slower swimmers the HIM is great as bike/run is such a big part of the actual race time.  Same with Sprint as swim is usually really short and a weaker swimmer may only lose a couple of minutes from someone FOP.  Olympic is a little more balanced with longer swim in comparison to bike and run time.  With that said and my feeling that my swim is a limiter I should look at doing more sprint and HIM events.  Anyone else looked at races with that specifically in mind? Of course, to some extent we race what is available....but in an ideal world........??

Randy