Peter Sagan....it was just a pinch (Page 14)

Kido - 2013-04-05 11:07 AM

Three points that come to my mind.

I think at 23, you KNOW.  Even younger.  You know that even in grade school, if you pinch a girls butt, they could turn around and clock you.  It may even be part of the fun.  You think that any guy who walks into a bar doesn't know there is a chance they could get slapped for doing that?  But they don't care.  That's the problem.  They/he thinks so little of her that he is willing to make her unhappy/uncomfortable/embarrassed because it would be "fun" for him.

If it wouldn't upset him in the least to do that (or any guy) - that's a BIG problem.  Having fun at the violation of someone else (which is far from "fun" for them) and having that not upset them in the least?

I also think that guys don't get into primal mode when they see a butt.  It's not like all rational thought leaves them and it's "see butt, must touch".  They know it's wrong.  When I see it happen, the guy typically looks at his friends like "look what I just got away with!".  Not considering that the girl may take that home and be upset.  Oh, who cares if she might be offended and upset.  It sure was a great 0.1 second for me!

I'm curious.  If you have a wife/daughter/girlfriend.  Would you dismiss it if some random guy grabbed her?  Forget about it in 5 minutes?  Typically, no.  That's what guys get in to fights about.  Disrespecting their girls.  It upsets them to the point of violence at some point.  So I wonder, if the GUY get's that upset about her getting disrespected and IT DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN TO HIM, he was just an observer.  How do you think SHE feels?  It actually happened to her.  Think it's not a big deal?

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 1:26 PM

At the same time, I think different workplaces have a different expectation for conduct. Not that this is right or wrong, but I would expect someone who works in an office building to conduct themselves in a different manner than someone who works on a construction site, or someone who works in a bar, or on a race track. You can argue that there is a double standard there, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

mr2tony - 2013-04-05 1:36 PM Physical assault and sexual harassment are pretty much across-the-board no-nos in any business, I would hope.

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 2:37 PM

well he hasn't been fired so clearly theres some kind of difference, regardless of what you hope

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 11:23 AM

Thats not what I said, I said that HE. As in Sagan. Would not have been upset if the model pinched his butt, or even if Fabian did (someone make that a meme please).  When people try to empathize, they often put themselves in the other person's shoes.

and of course I'd be mad, she should be mad too. I agree. I've also seen people get into fights after being bumped into at the bar. I've seen people get madder when someone cuts them off while driving. that doesn't validate your point.

 

Kido - 2013-04-05 1:56 PM

AND?????  So what if Sagan or Canchelara wouldn't have been upset.  What does that indicate/prove/disprove?

Fine, the wouldn't have been mad.

 

And my point was:

You keep saying it's not big deal and as a guy you wouldn't care, you would forget about it in 5 minutes.  Sagan and Canchelara wouldn't care.  If it's NOT that big of a deal, why do guys get upset if it happens to someone they know (wife/daughter/GF) and not even to them?  If the collateral impact is that significant to people it didn't even happen to, how could it NOT be even MORE upsetting/significant to the person it actually happened to?  They shouldn't care or forget about it in 5 minutes because guys would?

 

I'm obviously wasting my time here.  So I'm done.

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 3:01 PM  His intentions were probably far more benign.

Goosedog - 2013-04-05 2:03 PM

I get what you're saying, but what you need to try to understand is that this is the problem.  Or at least part of it.

 

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 12:01 PM

Thats not what I'm saying at all. Try actually reading my entire posts and understanding them. I was simply trying to explain that Sagan probably didn't think. THIS IS GOING TO UPSET HER. I'LL DO IT ANYWAYS BECAUSE SHE SHOULD'T CARE. His intentions were probably far more benign.

Kido - 2013-04-05 2:12 PM

I do read them and I try to understand them.  I'm not a mind reader, so if you are not writing them well, it's not my fault.

You don't see the big problem there?  If he's not thinking that touching her inappropriately will upset her and that violating someones body and space is benign - HUGE problem.  And apparently, pretty common.  And then basically excusing him by saying he didn't mean any harm because he didn't know?

And in a nutshell of what many posts are saying.  If men naturally think, or are being taught, that unwanted touching or inappropriate behavior towards women won't upset them or is benign, we should do an overhaul on our attitudes towards women and people in general.

Goosedog - 2013-04-05 12:03 PM

I get what you're saying, but what you need to try to understand is that this is the problem.  Or at least part of it.

 

Kido - 2013-04-05 2:12 PM

I do read them and I try to understand them.  I'm not a mind reader, so if you are not writing them well, it's not my fault.

You don't see the big problem there?  If he's not thinking that touching her inappropriately will upset her and that violating someones body and space is benign - HUGE problem.  And apparently, pretty common.  And then basically excusing him by saying he didn't mean any harm because he didn't know?

And in a nutshell of what many posts are saying.  If men naturally think, or are being taught, that unwanted touching or inappropriate behavior towards women won't upset them or is benign, we should do an overhaul on our attitudes towards women and people in general.

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 12:19 PM

I'll use smaller words.

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 1:37 PM

well he hasn't been fired so clearly theres some kind of difference, regardless of what you hope

I take issue with the large number of people that seem to think this was nefarious.

Big Appa - 2013-04-05 2:20 PM

The guy is a DB and I hope he looses some money over this.

 

Now I pinch Tony and Jim all the time but they ask for it.

lisac957 - 2013-04-05 2:24 PM

I take issue with your vehement defense and justification of what happened. At least that's how you're coming across.

(Apologies for weird quotyness on from my phone.)

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 3:14 PM

I am not excusing him. I am pointing out that it was likely not his intention to demean her. He didn't set out that morning and say, I better secure 2nd place so I can demean this woman. He made a mistake. He did something wrong. He apologized for it, and will hopefully face some kind of reprimand. I take issue with the large number of people that seem to think this was nefarious.

GLC1968 - 2013-04-05 2:30 PM

Actually, with Sagan, it appears to not be limited to butts.

Have you all seen this move of his?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUWakT8eu7I

BernardDogs - 2013-04-05 2:31 PM

You are excusing him, actually. You're excusing his behavior to be not as big of a deal because he didn't mean to demean her.

I don't care about his intentions. I care about the impact. First, the impact he's having on the woman he grabbed. When I initially pointed that out, many were quick to say "maybe she wasn't offended". That's supposition that attempts to deflect from the conversation.

I also care about the impact he's having on how men are generally perceived. This is the "we're defined by the least of our peers" comment I made. Every time this guy does something this insensitive, it gives permission to assume that 1) things aren't changing and 2)men are insensitive thugs.

When you, then, continue to rationalize his behavior as unintentional, not as bad as physical assault, etc. you add to the generalization that men 1) aren't interested in another perspective and 2) to mired in their own gender privilege to even have the capacity to change.

I don't like being defined by what you're putting out there as typical male response. It's why I interrupt the practice. 

pitt83 - 2013-04-05 2:31 PM



Well now: that kind of lays a "pattern of behavior" doesn't it? This starts to make it a bit more serious than a simple joke or a one off lack of discretion. Someone needs to take a class and get some training maybe?

bradleyd3 - 2013-04-05 3:37 PM




says the guy who's Location is "Checking out the podium girls"

dmiller5 - 2013-04-05 3:35 PM

I think his intention is an extremely important distinction. What he did was bad either way. I AGREE (for the 10th time). However, would you say there is a difference between murder 1, murder 2, and manslaughter? Our legal system would say that the difference is intention (and premeditation. I know I am oversimplifying but I think my point will hold true for this). I guess I don't understand how this can be completely ignored. I would love to hear someone else's perspective on how intention doesn't matter. 

pitt83 - 2013-04-05 2:43 PM You're right Bradley. But never have I ever made a direct, demeaning innuendo or comment towards someone I don't know and didn't know the ramifications of my comment or action. I recall once making a comment which was not appreciated (in a different vein) and immediately apologized that I had crossed an ethical line which they held as sacrosanct. Basically, I'm joking with the location comment and it's certainly not directly demeaning a particular person.