Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! (Page 17)

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I can re-acclimate to getting up at 4:20 to swim at 5, but I don't think I can post that early

Rene - that is a great list! I am going to try to remember to chant "I love my trainer!" 10 times every time I begin my ride. I only wish I had the list 3 days ago - on Sunday morning I was poking around the house waiting for the sun to come up so I could begin my long ride - it has once even entered into my brain that I could begin (or end) part of a ride on the trainer. I mean, how dumb am I????!

Awesome - thanks for those Steve - great suggestions. I sorta did that during my long warm-up on Saturday while watching some of the Ironman marathon on Universal Sports - hard during the commercials, easy during the show. 'Course, if I took that strategy during this year's IM show, I would have been going easy the whole time...

It would be fun to come up with others for when you are watching the news, cooking shows, reality TV - whatever. And how about the all-time ultimate killer quad burner: When watching "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" you have to do a 30 second all-out effort every time they say "Who."

Kathy - same here - I have a pretty good group of guys and gals that train and socialize together all the time. As you might imagine, that often means that a training ride, run or swim turns into an all-out race. We even have a "Weekday World Champion" jersey that we swap around just for fun. From the bunch of us though, I am the only one aiming at IM this year, so subsequently I am doing a lot more solo training, especially on the bike and run. I actually think maybe this one change more than anything else will help me be more consistent and competitive in my race finishes. There is no doubt that I have enjoyed some of my best race PRs out on the training course.

Anyone good at computer stuff?

In past groups I've been in someone has made up a box with list of screen names in mentor group that if you click on a screen name it has a link to that person's blog. It is something that can be cut and pasted into our blogs to have easier time checking in on others in our group.

I would find it helpful.

Hey Kathleen - don't want your question to get buried, because it is an important one in performing an accurate test.

I am certainly no expert, but I have always understood that the actual test part should be performed at a wide-open, race-pace effort. When the test is done, you should be confident that you gave the test everything that you have and could have not possibly gone harder. I would be less than honest if I did not admit that I may have teared up a time or two at the tail end of an LT test.

I am only guessing, but I think the reason the term "TT pace" is used more often than "race pace" is that it  maybe reinforces the fact that the test is should really be a solo effort, and based on your maximum effort for a set amount of time, rather than maximum effort over a set distance. In essence, in a TT, you cannot beat the clock like you can in a race. A subtle but important mental distinction when perming the test, I have found. It does not mean that you have to do it by yourself, but on the bike you want to be the one pulling for 20 minutes straight, and if you use a 5k race you really don't want your effort to be messed up by race-day tactics. TT pace may also further reinforce the fact that you want the effort to be continuous like most TT races - no stops, turns, or road crossings, and relatively moderate terrain - not a lot of sharp ups or down. I actually find it useful to have someone pretty tough along to push me to sustain maximum effort, but everyone is different. In another thread Kathy noted that she needed a little isolation to maintain her focus.

It has been pointed out to me (especially relative to the bike) that it is important to test in the environment and conditions in which you will be using the results in training. In other words, if you are going to be using the LT data on the trainer, then perform the test on the trainer, not on the road and vice versus.

Hope that helps (and is even close to accurate!) - and let us know how it goes!


Edited by TankBoy 2011-01-04 11:15 AM

Goal is to go as hard as you can for the 20' test. Ignore your HR until when you are done. Often HR will climb gradually through the 20' section even if you are going the same pace.

Ideally you pace even or slightly pick up effort/pace as you progress through the TT.

It can be a learning experience as some folks go to hard and sort of blow up but learn something so next one is better.

If you will be training by HR, also make note of the weather conditions and anything else unique about the TT...so you have the data for future reference as conditions effect both pace and HR.

I like to do TTs in same location, warming up the same, each time as it helps remove a few variables from testing.

It should be hard and feel like you gave it your all when done.

Good Luck!

I would agree with all of this, but add the caveat that while testing outdoors is optimal, it's not always ideal for getting the best results.  Speaking for myself, I do my power tests indoors simply because it's difficult to do a test around here without wind, terrain, vehicles, etc. possibly skewing the results.  On the trainer, I have no outside forces affecting the output.  I will acknowledge that the exertion level is perhaps just slightly higher indoors, but other than that I find (for me personally) that it works better.  Time and time again I can mimic the same testing environment - if I go outside I can't do that - which I believe is better when reviewing results over a period of time.

Edited by GoFaster 2011-01-04 12:35 PM

I'd been planning to do this but haven't had the time; If I get some the next couple of days, I'll copy the grid Rene has posted, and add the links

Joe - I read that in last months issue, and I have to say it absolutely aligns with my experience running marathons and ultras - I have run my best when staying under 16~18 miles long run and under 40 mile per week. Too much over that on a regular basis and my legs really begin to come apart. Everybody is different, but most of the folks that I know that have been running for a long time have found their sweet spot on weekly mileage. Mine is really 40, tops, and I race long distance pretty well at significantly  under that - my marathon routine was 3 runs per week - all quality, no junk. 1 set of speed work (usually about 8 miles total including a good warm up and cool down), 1 day of tempo (maxing out at about 7 miles at tempo pace with 1.5 warm up an cool down), and regular long runs of 14~16, maybe a couple at 18, starting out very easy and then descending the set until the last 5~6 miles are at race pace. When ultra training the only thing I really do differently is add another longish run on saturday every other week or so (without the descending part) or a 5~6 hour ride, so that the long run on Sunday is done with a good bit of fatigue. Then always swim on Monday.

I began marathoning by following traditional Runner's World plans and always wound up injured, overtrained, and/or burned out. The trick to the three day per week thing for me was to continue to swim and cycle as well - all of that helped build my fitness without all the pounding that a traditional run-only plan requires. I just made sure that the swim/bike did not impact the quality of my speed/tempo workouts. For me it always seemed like the extra 3 or 4 days of running in a traditional plan were more about building fitness, not speed or endurance. If you can build fitness off your feet (by cycling and swimming) then I say save yourself and do it. On the flipside, I know lots of folks that can hammer out high volume run weeks month after month, and they race really well too - it is really all about figuring out what works for you, so be patient and stick with a plan to see how it works - just make sure not to jump back and forth between plans from week to week or month to month - endurance sport is a long game!

Oh, and I can attest to fact that whatever those Hanson brothers are doing works. I do a fair number of races around Michigan every year (family locale) and those dudes are fast!

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Fred - I totally hear you on that.  After all the reading I've done here on the forums and stuff, I'm actually scared to run fast or hard...I'll get hurt instantly!  Ok, slight exaggeration, but just shows my point.  I think that lots and lots of easy running is really good, it worked really well for me for the last 4 months building to mileages per months I never dreamed of, and I did it without ever getting run down or hurt (and really helped my confidence).  Now, I need to lose that mentality, come to grips with the fact that my body is ready to handle faster running more often.  Sometimes that transition in philosophy can be a tough on I think.  And yes, there are good programs for different people, and at different points in their careers, you just gotta find the one that you like, you can believe in and works for you NOW.

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yes, I really agree with you now.  When I was newer, I needed to know I could run after biking - I did a lot of bricks.  I don't anymore (save very sparingly for nutrition practice/maybe a race pace walkthrough).  I needed to know I could bike 56 miles then run - I'd bike 70 or 80 miles then try to run (but I biked it too easy).  I think that killed me.  I need to focus on exactly what you're talking about - shorter bikes but harder intensity.  I don't think my 4 hour Z1-Z2 rides helped my HIM bike leg that much (but that was the plan I followed).  But I think it was important in confidence that I felt overtrained the distance (but I probably undertrained the intensity...if that makes any sense).

on the Eagleman heat front - I'm doing something suggested by my friend - minimizing my fan/cooling when on the trainer.  Get hotter/sweat more, and he says it will help for that race...thoughts?

haha, so true.  If I wasn't saving for an Aug wedding, I would probably be working with a coach now too.

yeah, I'm not sure how I can test outside when the time comes for the reasons you mention.  Not sure I can find a place for 20 min of constant and consistant cycling.  Man, I'd be mad if at min 18 I hit a stop sign or a downhill that I spin out on and have the test compromized...those things are too tough to repeat more often than necessary!

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Completely agree with this.

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