Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! (Page 18)

100%!
Quick question for everyone from the newb to training with power: What number (and why) do you find most useful to you to use when doing a workout based on power zones? 1 sec, 3 sec average, 30 sec average? Does it depend on what you are doing? Do you set your head unit to display more than one?

On my Garmin I have 3 sec avg and lap avg power on the front screen (among other things).  I've found that combo to be the best for me and doing intervals targeting certain wattages. 

I guess I'd be hesitant to do this.  First, I can't redo an Oly race whenever I want updated numbers, though that's a convenience thing, not an accuracy thing.  I've heard FTP, CP, whatever you want to call it, is about your all out effort for an hour.  My Oly effort is not an all out effort, even though I'm close to an hour on it.  I pulled this from Dr. Skiba's book on training with power, and he says an Oly race should be at about 92-95% CP for an amateur and 95-98% for a Pro.  So you could back calculate based where you think you were, but that seems really iffy (how do you know you executed well?).  I guess I can gauge all out for 20 min and 3 min better than 95% for an hour.  But as people have mentioned, it is best to find what works for you and stick to it.  Then you can compare the test data.

My cautionary tale for the day is here .
This kid really got my attention...

Wow. Amazing how naive some people can be. Does it make anyone else mad when they see cyclist doing stupid things out on the road?

Great ideas about training in the heat during the winter months. I'm used to and prefer training in the summer/heat. The main problem with IMTX is that it is the weekend it normally starts really heating up in Houston. The bike won't be a problem but the run will. IMO the race date a few weeks later would have been better than the 3rd weekend in May. At least we would have had more time to get used to the heat.
Do you think it would help to wear more running clothes than normal during training for the heat during the race? I get really hot when running. Even in the winter ( 38-40 degree's) I'll run wearing shorts/tights, long jog bra, hat and gloves after the first mile.

I could run on the treadmill at the gym that doesn't have fans

Any other ideas for training to run in the heat?

Has anyone else taken the time to look back over their training logs from 2010? If you haven't then I would highly recommend doing so. I went back and counted up all of the days that were missed from illness and injury. Then we were able to identify causes of illness and training fatigue. It was very eye opening to look at the entire year in review. The majority of illness and over training problems occurred when I had a different coach. We've changed training to adjust for events that we know have lead to illness/over training/fatigue in the past. I'm also in the process of working on a preventative health plan (nutrition, recovery, allergy medicine, stress management) for the upcoming year.

Edited by Catwoman 2011-01-04 8:04 PM

I was really surprised by the kid's total lack of awareness for the situation he had put himself in. 

I have been looking over my logs quite a bit, its helping me think and map out my time better (I hope) for the coming season and year.  I also have started logging my weight and hours slept since these two numbers seem keyed pretty close to my health.  I am lucky not to have allergies, the rest of my house does, but fatigue and stress really show through my hours and the gaps I see.

Bike FTP testing is interesting discussion. I do think you need to have one method and stick with it for at least a season. Besides the method choice you will ideally have similar conditions, same road, same start location ect. I've been testing at this one area where they have real bike time trials for last 3 or 4 years....all right turns, no stop signs, no lights, wide shoulders and mostly flat.

The cooler it is, you will be slower in general with same watts due to air pressure. Fastest TT at same watts will be hot wind free day. I've done same TT and tri courses and had my fastest time not be my highest power day even using same bike, clotheso and position.

I've worked with three different coaches over last 6 years and each has their own method so I do what I'm told.

If I used my Oly or Sprint power it would be lower than what I understand FTP to be but of course how coaches set up zones and how they coach uses their own training method. Based on Skilba or Coggan & Allen's concepts most don't ride Sprint or Oly at their FTP. One Sprint I rode at my FTP and ran pretty well off the bit. In probably the 10 Olys I've done with power I am unable to race at the FTP % either book recommends always lower.

I'm back!

Sorry for dropping off grid for a few days but real life won out. I know I've been a bad boy etc and slacked on the tri training so that'll be back on track as of today with cycling to work and a run this evening.

Thanks for not giving me grief lol



I've got a question for those with hectic lives regarding time management. I'm constantly impressed with those of you who have full time (and beyond!) jobs, family etc and still manage to fit in ironman training. What's your secret?

Have you read "Be iron fit", theres a lot of ideas for the time challenged athlete.
My "secret" is to train mornings before the rest of the family gets up, and evenings when the kids are put to bed.
And it helps a lot to have an understanding and supportive wife.

This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by Fred Doucette 2011-01-05 6:22 AM

This user's post has been ignored.

Just a few thoughts...way to stir up the controversy, on purpose no less!

Skiba/JorgeM/my coach coworker (who all work together) advocate the 20 min and a shorter 3 or 5 min all out power test.  Then you plot those two points and the slope is CP (more technically, you convert W to Joules by multiplying by the time in seconds of the test, e.g. my 20min power = 282 W *20*60 (multiply by 20 min, then by 60 b/c 60 sec in a minute)= 338400 J.  So it's not just 95% of your 20 min power.  Bottom line, it's a test method I can do repleatedly and make consistant from one test to the next.  (20 min and 3 min are just suggestions based on his research that give good results, I believe you can make the 20 min longer if you like, but the short effort is important to keep in the equation).  The curve that defines how your power drops with time is well known (according to him) and the two points will define that curve for a given person.  That's why they say this curve is more accurate when extended out to longer efforts.  So IM training will probably increase 20MP more than 3 MP.  But based on the formula for CP, lets say my 20 MP remains constant (or rises), but my 3 MP drops (or stays constant or rises less than 20MP) because of all the low intensity stuff I'm doing - my CP will INCREASE, which logically follows (my short burst ability goes down, my longer abilities go up).  Conversely, raising my 3MP while 20MP stays the same decreases my CP.  So it seems like the effects of those short distance tests are an indication of what your training has adapted you to do, and can allow you to extrapolate out to longer distances.  Or maybe not.

I think that you are right in saying that 2 people can't ride an IM at the same % of FTP with the same results.  He gives ranges for each race distance for that reason.  A person taking 6 hours will have to ride at a lower % than a person taking 5 hours (because they have to put out that effort longer).  Same with a person adapted to shorter or longer distances.    That's something I don't think you can ever really know until you try it out.  My coworker makes all his athletes do a race sim (about 100miles and 18-20 mile run I believe) to hone in on the correct power % (and perhaps more importantly to test nutrition).  This is probably waaay more important for the first time IMer and as Fred mentioned, once you're more experienced, you can use the results of previous races and a comparison of FTP (then and now) to get a good estimation of where you need to be for the next race.

One last thing he drilled into me is that I'm not special on race day (to perhaps offer a diferent perspective than Fred, but perhaps not quite).  I am what my training allows me to be.  If my training will let me bike at 85% CP and run 8 min/mile, I can't "dig deep" and get all 80's feel good movie on race day and give that extra effort.  If I bike at 87% and run 7:30s, I will not be able to.  That being said, training is done in a constant state of fatigue.  So when you start biking at 85% it will probably feel easier than training at 85%, at least at first (becuase as that marathon training article suggested, you're mimicing running the last 16 miles of the marathon in training, not the first 16).  SO in training you never feel like you could put out 85% for a HIM, but on race day you can because you're not fatigued.  So your training defines what you are capable of (obviously), but the "guess" is exactly what your training has made you capable of.  Clear as mud.

So...feel free to tell me where you think i'm wrong

Fred - I think that any hilly course is going to allow you to push higher watts than you're used to.  But if you lived around the Savageman area, I'd guess your coach would have had you training and dialing in your watts based on the course.  I know that for me personally, I can push higher watts uphill and not suffer so much - helps that I'm a lighter guy.  And when I race Muskoka this year I know that target race wattage will be in somewhere in the 80th percentile, but I'll probably let that drift into the 90's on some of the hills.

I think once you start riding with your Quarq it'll be pretty eyeopening how fast the watts go up when the incline increases.  I've found that the trainer doesn't simulate hills and what it does to power as well as the outdoors does - or perhaps I'm not being as observant.



I'll disagree with this one.  I got the PM last year and used it for all the races.  A couple of times I got to ride the course in advance and get a feel for race pace.  The trial run, the actual race (with one exception), and my training paces all matched up very well.  I really do believe that you race based on how you train and your power data - otherwise I'm missing the point as to why you train with power, just to discard it on raceday.  You've built your race performance around your training.

Do you know how your coach plans to test you yet?

Fred - one other question (though I don't want to throw a wrench in the power discussion).  You said earlier that your coach has got you running a lot slower at the moment than what you are used to, but you'd also mentioned that when training yourself you'd moved away from a lot of the Zone 2 Allen type approach to training.  How do find it following the coach's plan since it seems to be a little bit at odds with your own philosophy that you've built over the past few years?

This user's post has been ignored.

Really interesting discussion on power, guys! I can see me looking into this further for the next season already.



Why do they not use them during the race, Fred?

This user's post has been ignored.

Regarding RPE, HR, power, no power, training, racing, etc., I think this all goes back to what Fred said earlier:

That's one of the nice things about sport.  Lots of different philosophies, many of which work quite well.  What's best for one person may not be best for another.  Especially when you incorporate psychological factors.

As far as how we feel on race day vs training, I'm personally more in line with Fred on that one.  In IM training I almost always have residual fatigue.  The two times I've done IM, the taper has made me feel very strong on race day.  I never felt like that in training, and I'm pretty sure I was riding higher watts in the race than I did on long rides in training.  But my RPE was similar to my training rides. 

I remember a similar thing happening in college during track season.  We'd beat ourselves up during the season with speedwork, hills, and races.  I always feeling thrashed to one degree or another.  But then we'd taper way back before the conference meet and some of us would go significantly faster than we had all season.  (Some others wouldn't see much improvement for the conference meet - maybe they would have benefited from another approach?)  

This user's post has been ignored.

This user's post has been ignored.

I'm sure this is true for some pro's, but not necessarily for all it seems, http://tinyurl.com/2vwu8xo





Edited by wiky 2011-01-05 11:36 AM

Wow Kathleen, see what you started?! Back when this group first got fired up just a couple of weeks ago, bike gearing seemed like a difficult enough topic!

I only just installed a PM (quarq) 3 months ago, and have just recently begun to do some of my workouts based on power only - long rides are still HR and most others are a combo of HR and power - mostly this is to get acclimated to understanding both the alignments and disconnects between the two inputs. I am listening to my coach 100% - and learning quite a bit from this discussion as well.

To the larger issue of training vs. racing according to data collection (whether it is HR, power, or pace) Like everything in this sport it is probably both personal fluid.

I found that early on in my career the data (HR in my case) helped a great bit, it acted as sort of a fuel tank that kept me from running out of gas before reaching the next petrol station. A little later in my career however, it negatively became more of a speed governor - I began to believe what the numbers meant too much and would run to them. When I switched over to adventure racing, often I would not even use a watch, much less any other data collection - it did not matter (and would often even lead to frustration) as you could only go as fast as your slowest team mate, which over 24 hours or more everybody gets at least one opportunity to be the one going through a rough patch. when I came back to tris, I continued to trained with little input beyond RPE, and raced with none, and experienced some of my best times ever. But that was all at the sprint and olympic distance.

Like Fred (and I think maybe Rob mentioned as well?) I do find that at least at these distances I have capacities in a race that I just do not have in real life. for me I don't think it is altogether due to fatigue vs. taper either - it just seems that in a good race there is just this mysterious extra gear sometimes that comes from being able to hang on outside your capacity for just thirty seconds. Its weird, but the best sprint races I have enjoyed have been when I can finish up in the group on the bike, hang on, and then absolutely turn myself inside out for the first 6 minutes of the last 12 minutes of the run.

My experience with HIM is of course is WAY different, and I have to believe that IM will be way, way, WAY different. For these races, I am actually counting on my PM & HRM to once again be a regulator, but this time in a positive sense. In a funny way I expect them to be my slower race partner like in an adventure race, particularly on the bike. I really, really want to run the marathon.

Ramble complete. Now it is time to dress up like a character from "Deadliest Catch" and get out in this miserable drizzle for a 2:45 bike/:45 run-off. Yea.

Thanks Joe - I am going to roll with that setup today.

Interesting thoughts and discussion on power.

I do agree with Fred and others that there are many ways to train to have solid results. I have been coached for for 6 years with three different coaches, I have the philosophy if they are my coach I will do what they say. I want to understand why we are doing things a certain way.

I have over time looked back over my training over the years and see certain things work better for me and other ways don't work as well for me.  On the bike I need to do intervals, I do better with lower cadence work and I can't do just miles and miles of aerobic zone 2 work to improve.

In testing three different ways, I think one estimated my FTP to high, one to low and one just about right.  Yet for HIM or IM racing what our FTP isn't the key to what we can do race day..sure it influences it but how we train sets us up for race day and our ability to ride steady aerobic effort.

From working with Fred's coach in the past, I think his power zones are different than what most books use and how he establishes them are different. His success with his long course athletes speaks to how well his methods work.

Perhaps some folks like Fred (i.e. fast) have something I don't that ability to dig deep and find something in themselves with their fitness to push their body more.  For me executing and finishing an Ironman is difficult enough.

jsiegs - 2011-01-05 9:16 AM

Just a few thoughts...way to stir up the controversy, on purpose no less!

Skiba/JorgeM/my coach coworker (who all work together) advocate the 20 min and a shorter 3 or 5 min all out power test.  Then you plot those two points and the slope is CP (more technically, you convert W to Joules by multiplying by the time in seconds of the test, e.g. my 20min power = 282 W *20*60 (multiply by 20 min, then by 60 b/c 60 sec in a minute)= 338400 J.  So it's not just 95% of your 20 min power.  Bottom line, it's a test method I can do repleatedly and make consistant from one test to the next.  (20 min and 3 min are just suggestions based on his research that give good results, I believe you can make the 20 min longer if you like, but the short effort is important to keep in the equation).  The curve that defines how your power drops with time is well known (according to him) and the two points will define that curve for a given person.  That's why they say this curve is more accurate when extended out to longer efforts.  So IM training will probably increase 20MP more than 3 MP.  But based on the formula for CP, lets say my 20 MP remains constant (or rises), but my 3 MP drops (or stays constant or rises less than 20MP) because of all the low intensity stuff I'm doing - my CP will INCREASE, which logically follows (my short burst ability goes down, my longer abilities go up).  Conversely, raising my 3MP while 20MP stays the same decreases my CP.  So it seems like the effects of those short distance tests are an indication of what your training has adapted you to do, and can allow you to extrapolate out to longer distances.  Or maybe not. /QUOTE]

The past year I have been doing the 3-5' test and 20' test like you mention. After I had my knee scoped I retested about 6 weeks post surgery and my 3' and 20' test were almost the same...it was my VO2/anaerobic capacity (or in the ceiling and roof analogy I needed to raise my roof)  took a big hit. I did weekly 30/30s basically 30" very hard, 30" zone 2 moving up to doing 2 sets of 10-15. 6 weeks later my 3' test was up 60 watts. Until I pushed up that shorter effort the ability to get FTP  would have been very difficult. That is why I pay a coach to have him figure out how to adapt my training to me and what needs to be worked on.



Endurance Nation has a racing with Power module I purchased and one of their points is keeping your TSS under 300 more in the range of 270-280 for an IM. TSS is a factor IF  and time. The longer you are out there the lower your IF (percentage of FTP) you can race at.  But the model I have slowest time they have on their chart is 6:30 IM bike split where in some races like LP I think it has been said more than half the athletes are slower than that time.  They have changed their view some for athletes like myself that are 6 to 6.5+ hour bike splits and see TSS more in the 300-330 range.

For me this last IM, I did race rehearsals, and my long rides and on race day I was within 2 watts of what those had been. I don't have any more power on race day. All three of my coaches thought I could ride higher watts in my Ironman races than I did but I was in line with what my training.  The couple of times in races I have exceeded what I had proved I could do in training, my run was incredibly painful and slow for me.



I agree with the training shows me what I'm capable. I have very rarely surprised myself with faster run or higher watts than would line up with my training.

My biggest goal in most all my races is execute well with the fitness I have. I know my limitations and abilities so executing well allows me to have the fastest time with fitness I have not the fitness I wish I had.