KathyG's 2012 Awesome Mentor Group-Full up (Page 18)

Mike - if that cure worked for me I would never get sick!

You guys just made me laugh out loud!

For me in terms of bricks - when I first started training, I was religious about doing them - mostly for mental reasons - I wanted to know I could do the distance during a race. Now - three years in, I don't do them that often - just closer to a big race but for the same mental confidence reason. Someone once told me that the reason he *didn't* do bricks is the purpose (for him) was to have as high a quality workout as possible and by doing a brick - it diminished the quality of the second sport's workout. At this point - I will probably do two or three sizable bricks (40 or more mile bike ride with a 10 mile run) before the Patriot HIM. If weather permits - I'd like to do a swim bike brick too - but I really don't want to have to chip ice off the pond to make that happen.

Early in my tri years I used to do bricks most weeks as the season approached. Last three years I do a few a year much like Fred and Jen mentioned.

Bricks can be useful in a few situations....

• Efficiency to get that run in when a bit time crunched and helps get run frequency up
• Prior to race test out nutrition, hydration and pacing (I have done HIM and IM bricks that are for HIM 40-60 miles with 45' run or IM will do IM pacing/nutrition of maybe 75-90 miles with 45' run. Both HIM and IM run I will start at zone 2 pace or easy pace with last half of my run at race pace to see if that is doable. It tests out racing plan. I call it race simulation not a brick though as it has specific goal)
• Folks new to triathlons who want confidence in their ability to run off the bike

For most of us, unless you are on the pointy end of the field, limiting time of brick runs to 45-60' and often just 15-20' is wise. In my first IM build I did a 110 mile bike followed by 90' run prior to my taper. In hindsight it was not wise, I didn't recover well so my training in my taper was reduced and I'm sure I lost fitness in my taper. I was working with a coach.

When I started doing tris and was doing bricks more often, I would hit a certain spot on my run and that was always where how I felt running changed. I remember in my 4th or 5th year tri training going on my first brick that year and thought wow I don't have the post bike weird running feeling straight off the bike.

I do think swim/bike bricks can be helpful.

I have done long ows followed by medium bike. I have considered doing ows then ride my bike home from where I swim which is about 45 miles cycling.

In longer races HIM and especially IM folks often underestimate the energy cost the swim has on the rest of the day.

I want to practice pacing like I want to race so train to pace well.

A few years ago I worked hard on pacing during training runs and it really paid off in races. Prior to that focus I would do a long run and start fast and get a bit slower over the run so my pace may drop 45-60" per mile. My coach at the time challenged me to pace my next long run exactly the opposite starting with the slowest miles based on last long run and get faster. I had to set up my Garmin differently so I had current lap pace and have laps mark every mile.

It then became a game which was excellent for me with mental focus math game. It was hard at first to run so slow to start but I'd make myself do it.  I remember doing a 18 or 20 mile run prior to IM Canada that I had goal pace for each mile that I was given and I was within 8 seconds or less for each goal. It changed the way I felt about long runs.

Learning to hold back early on a run and increase effort which may not mean faster pace, is an important skill. Often in IMs and HIMs folks get off the bike and feel strong so they run first few miles to fast which negatively effects end of the run.

I think the best executed HIM race I did, I had a slight negative split on second half of the run by about 6 seconds a mile. Effort second half was higher. Key for me is I felt I executed the race well and felt strong at the end.

Mike, my hope would be that you would be able to run/walk the whole HM to learn pacing instead of running 90' per your plan then run/walk to the end to just finish.....train to race strong instead of training to pace poorly.

Does that make sense?

Any other thoughts?

Be careful on doing the race distance in training in doing that long of a brick as the recovery cost can be great. I'd suggest doing something like 40-60 bike if possible 50-60 with max of 60' run maybe 75' but not 10 miles.

I think there are many "right" answers on this on.  I'm pretty much the opposite of Fred.  Once I get into my build phases I do almost all of my running off the bike (usually 4 out of 5 runs a week including my long run). 

Thanks for the replies regarding bricks.  I tend to recover pretty quickly if my workouts don't include a lot of jacking around with my HR.  I am able to run off the bike without much trouble.

Right now, I do a brick of 60 minutes on the bike trainer followed by 35 minutes on the treadmill.  (Childcare constraints keep me inside.)  Today, I did not get to do that routine.  My bike ride will happen later today.

I'd love to be able to do the swim/bike brick.  (Again in the pool and on the trainer/spin bike.)

Now I have a couple more questions:

1) When doing a brick, how much time between the sports is acceptable?  Of course, in an ideal world you would treat it like you do in a race.  My world with a toddler to take care of while training is what I have to work with.  Anyone want to do a bike/diaper change/snack time/run brick? 

2) I love to do two workouts per day.  One workout is easy while the other is more challenging depending on my goals.  How many hours between the end of the first workout and the beginning of the second workout would be sufficient for recovery and refueling in order for the second workout to be quality?

Kathy - I agree 100% witht the caveat that Mike goes in witht the plan of run/walking and has actually trained a bit for it. The other option Mike if you are dead-set to get the run in, why not come off the bike and walk for 30 minutes then run? To me that would have more positive psychological effects than doing it the other way around and that should not be underestimated. From my experience in ultra running there is nothing more motivating than running into the back of everyone that went out too hard and blew up. But it can be harder to get going.... Like kathy said, Run/walk an even or slightly negative split is probably smartest way to go.

HUGELY helpful! During the summer try to get one straight-through open water swim of about 1:10~1:20 done per week. I rarely bike after the swim due to logistics, but I often try to do a short little run, again - maybe 15 and no more than 30 minutes. It think it really helps to get vertical and moving the legs as quickly as possible after these long sessions, whether through biking or running.

Tracy I try to get bricks done as back-to-back as possible. Although i am much more methodical and while i might wipe down, change clothes, etc, it is still good transition practice. If I am trying to get two seperate "quality" workouts done in the same day, I will get AT LEAST four hours inbetween them, and more would be better.

Interesting brick discussion.  I though they were a required part of tri training.  It's a relief to see that one can effectively train doing each sport individually.  Although, I do anticipate doing several long bike-run combinations during the spring and summer months.  It makes intuitive sense to throw a few in.

My work had a presentation by Team in Training today (my work will be a major sponsor of a local event).  Has anyone considered this approach?  I should consider supporting this worthy cause for personal reasons but also think it would add a mental burden to my already way over scheduled, mentally stressed life.

Today's swim was a welcome challenge.  We did our usual 200 warm up followed by another 200 of various small technique drills.  Core workout was 12x200 followed by a 200 cool down.  We had a 20 second rest in between each 200.  It was a solid swim.

Holy moly!  That's quite a swim!  I may "borrow" this idea for one of my workouts!

I hope you are starting to feel better.  One of the things that I like to use if I feel a cold coming on is the Chinese herb concoction called Yin Chiao.  You can find it in any natural food store.  It works if you catch your cold at the absolute beginning.  The cold then develops less serious symptoms.  I swear it works!

Awesomely helpful! I have so much to learn! It makes sense regarding run/walk now.

Great news Mike!

What did she have you work on that clicked in the pull?

Which Master's program do you go to?  I went for awhile to one South Shore put on by married couple Xterra Pros...blanking on their names now.

I'm a bit surprised how hard getting off crutches has been. PT yesterday left me fatigued and had leg cramps in the afternoon.

Today I went to Y did PT in the pool, rode a bike, then went up to the indoor track and walked one lap without crutches holding on to the railing for 1/17th of a mile or less than 100 yards. It was very hard to do.

Amazing how muscle atrophy happens so quickly...from IM finish to not being able to walk 3 months later.

Wonder how long it will be until I can walk normally and build up my leg strength?

You'll get it back.  A friend of mine had major knee surgery about 6 months ago after being in pain and unable to do the things she wanted to do for several months.  On one of her follow-up MRIs, the doctor told her that she had some osteoporosis beginning in that leg due to not moving it much.  Now, she is doing much better.  Both of us are surprised how quickly the osteoporosis developed.  Her doctor said that it should reverse as soon as she gets back to her old routine.

Holy cow, owl, you are fast!  Good job on our swim.

I only had forty-five minutes to ride the trainer this morning.  Did a few crunches afterward.  I figure something is better than nothing.  MIW tomorrow.  Feels like a lame day.

owl_girl - 2012-01-25 4:50 PM I had a super, fantastic swim today!  After my warm up, I did a straight 1500 yards in 28:13!  I'm so excited!  This group is definitely getting my butt into the pool.  Thank you! 

Woot Woot!

Accountability helps and it's rewarding to see gains.

My coach is getting me to work on my pull too, specifically the way I catch the water.  i had a video assessment done and could see that I was pushing the water down instead of along behind me.  Just changing the angle of my wrist has made a huge difference.  Many congratulations on your eureka moment!

Happy Australia Day everyone!  Today is a public holiday to celebrate the founding of a great nation or to mourn the destruction of another depending on your point of view.  We are off to the river later for a sausage sizzle, a few beers and massive fireworks.  Australia Day is the BIG celebration here, much bigger than New Years.  

I am having a problem with motivation at the moment - it's the last week of the school hols (telling myself "I'll get back into it when he's back at school), the race I wanted to do is tomorrow (OWS panic issues lead me to not enter) and it's just stinking hot with highs of 110 and lows of 80 (longest heatwave for 75 years).  How can I get my groove back?

More about pulling straight back and eliminating the pull to the outside I had in my stroke. Made a big difference. Could feel myself getting smoother & higher in the water once I began to do it with some consistancy.

The program I'm in is at the YMCA in Quincy on M/W AM. Its right on my way to work, and fits my schedule perfectly.