Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--CLOSED (Page 19)

Congratulations KRISTEN!!   I'm so excited for you!   Nothing like actually being confirmed in a race to really get you motivated.  9 hours or 7.5 hours or lower - it just don't matter when all's said and done.  Enjoying the training and crossing the finish line with a smile is an awesome goal.  You can do it!

How'd your trail race go, JANET?

Welcome back KARL.  I wondered what happened to you.   I'm sitting here wagging my finger at you though - you better be good and listen to your doc and not push running before you're supposed to or you'll be back on the sidelines.   Wag, wag, wag...

I'm doing a little bit of core work with a stability ball to just get me doing SOMETHING.  I've had the ball for a couple years and just haven't used it.   I got on-line and have been doing random videos.   It's hard to stabilize with a boot on but I'm doing my best and it's helping with my mental well-being.  After that Super Bowl finish my mental well-being needed some real help. 

Hope everyone's having a terrific Tuesday!

Here are the current Weight Loss/Workout Challenge points.  Sorry this is so late in the day, one of my clients seems to think his network is more important than me doing triathlon stuff . . . go figure.

Scott I continues to lead the way.  Lots of good workout numbers this week.  Keep it up everyone!

(0201_weightloss_workout.jpg)

So it was good news, bad news on the trail race Sunday.  Good news was the steady, soaking rain that we had all night Saturday had stopped by the time the race started on Sunday morning.  It was chilly, but not too bad really.  Bad news was the rain left the course a wet, sloppy, muddy mess.  I don't mind a little mud but this was really bad for about half the course.  The first part  (the gravel road) wasn't too bad, just some puddles to go around.  Once we got on the actual trail it got progressively worse.  The last 1/4 mile on the trail was pure mud and then the 2 miles that we had to run on the "dirt" (read "mud") road through the cornfield was almost impossible.  It was more like what you see on an actual mud run.  The last half mile was back on the gravel road but by then it had started raining again.  One of the disadvantages of being slow - if I was a little faster, I would have been done before the rain started up again.  Good incentive to work on my speed if I decide to do the race again next year.  I know it sounds like I didn't enjoy it, but actually I did.  Not much you can do about the weather and they did the best they could given the conditions. 

Kristen - congrats on signing up for your first HIM!

Janet

Hey Stu,

I never completely stopped swimming, even as I gained all of my weight.  Although, for several years I was only hitting the pool a couple times a month and when I did, it was half an hour, forty-five minutes of really unstructured swimming.  I'd get in, swim a few laps, socialize with whoever was around, repeat.  When I decided to pursue my Ironman dream and got back in the water with a purpose, the first thing I did was an STP test - which for the record, almost killed me.  Then the next day I did a 100Y time trial.  I was pleasantly surprised when I did a 1:09 that first 100Y TT.  After a couple workouts I got my feel for the water back and my sorted out my technique.  I did another 100Y TT my second week back and my time had dropped to 1:03.  Something to be said for all of the millions of meters I swam back in the day.  My current times are nowhere near where they were when I was swimming.  My PR for a 100Y is :46.97.  Now I can do a :55 at best.  That is depressing because my threshold pace back when I was swimming was :54/100Y whereas my threshold pace now is 1:08/100Y.  The amount of work it would take to get back down to my previous times would be staggering and I am not sure physically that I could get my times back down to those levels again.  Never mind that I don't have the desire to put in 12,000 meters a day everyday for the next year to try and do it.

You doing two miles in an hour should be more than doable.  That is something like a 1:50/100Y pace.  I imagine you can do that now but yes, holding that pace for an hour will likely mean more than 2x a week in the pool.

You go girl!  I have found that nothing motivates me as well as a race entry confirmation.  You got this!

STEVE - I'm glad you got the ok to start doing what you can and hold off surgery.   Boy, you sure have had a long go at this thing!  It seems to me you've maintained a good attitude through pain and recovery.   I'm only 3 weeks post-op and have moments of discouragement.  Do you have any words of wisdom since you've been patient with recovery a long time?    I DO plan on taking your advice and not crashing anymore.  I did once and only had road rash but that was enough.  What's your plan for starting to "beat up your shoulder"? 

JANET -  Congratulations for finishing a tough mud run!   I know exactly the conditions you went through and it takes a bunch of mental fortitude to slog through that stuff.   The picture below was from 2011 when I did my first 50K (that's not me but it's a great picture of the trails that day).   It was interesting to say the least.    I say you win the gold star for perseverance for the weekend!

Hadn't heard of the book, STU but thanks for finding it.    Sounds like just what I need to read to get me through this winter.

 Scott,

Let me start out by clearing this up, sadly you can't take the 200 time and determine a threshold pace from that, you need both numbers, so the 1:52/100 is not valid, although that number is probably much closer to accurate than the number you have.

Next, we can pretty easily determine that the 1:46/100 pace for an STP is invalid.  If it were correct, you would not have slowed down for the 200, regardless of how much recovery you had because your 400 was above 1:46.  If 1:46 was your threshold pace, you would not have been anaerobic on the 400 and would not have needed any recovery.

I agree, the numbers are off  a bit.  The short answer is I would test again but lets take a look at the numbers and see what they tell us and then you can decide if you want to go with what you have or do a re-test.

First a quick explanation.  The STP test attempts to strip out the anaerobic contribution to your swim speed and just leave an approximation of your fastest pace while still aerobic, or your threshold pace.  The alternative way to arrive at that pace is with a one-hour test or a 1,500 time trial.  Both of those tests are grueling and require long recovery time so the majority of people prefer to test in a different way.  The STP test generally yields results that are very close to the one-hour test.

This is a bit counter-intuitive, but if you go faster in the 200, your STP will actually calculate to be slower.  This is because it is assumed, as you go faster, anaerobic effort is making a greater contribution to your speed, so a greater amount of time is subtracted out.  So using that understanding, if your 200 were 3 seconds per 100 faster, your calculated STP would have been closer to 1:52, not 1:46.  That doesn't tell us much other than to say it would have made a substantial difference.

Now, lets look at your specific test times and see what it tells us.  Your test dramatically proved one of the things I regularly say, namely that you cannot maintain an anaerobic pace for more than a few yards.  For the STP test to be most accurate, the two TT's should be swam at an even pace across each distance - meaning the 400 should have four equal 100 splits, and the 200 should have two equal 100 splits.  Those splits would not necessarily be the same for the 200 and the 400 - typically the 400 will have a bit slower splits.  It would be VERY revealing if we had the 100 splits from both your 400 and your 200.  I suspect we would see a steady slow-down across each test distance.  Adding to that is the likelihood that you did not have sufficient recovery between the 400 and the 200, which would further skew the results.  You have been training exclusively with the swim team so your are comfortable being anaerobic - which is what you need to do in order to be a swimmer.  I think what probably happened on your test is you started the 400 a bit too hard.  You were able to push through because you are comfortable swimming anaerobically, although your body said, "I don't think so," and you began to slow down.  Then after a recovery that was insufficient to clear the lactic acid build-up, you swam the 200 time trial and again, your body said, "I don't think so."

I have a couple questions at this point -

a) do you happen to have the 100 splits for both time trials?

b) how long was your recovery between tests?

c) what was your recovery in between the two test like?  Did you just hang on the wall at the end of the pool?  Did you swim a few laps?  What did you do for that period of time?

If I rerun your numbers, assuming 3 seconds per 100 slower for the 400 - which would make it much more likely you could maintain a steady pace - allowing for a full and complete recovery between tests, and assuming 3 seconds per second faster for the 200 - because you had a full recovery - the STP would work out closer to 1:55.  Generally, and this is with a REALLY broad brush, the 200 TT time is STP - 5-10 seconds, while the 400 TT time is STP - 2-5 seconds.  Using the adjusted numbers and an STP of 1:55 you would fall within the norms.

So here is where you get to make a decision.  My guess is based on a couple days of experience, but it is still a guess at what your STP actually is.  Or, you can re-test.  If/when you choose to re-test, you want to attempt to hold an even pace through each time trial.  Do the 400, then a complete and full recovery before the 200.  I suggest at least 20 minutes of EASY swimming.  The important thing is to be swimming easily to clear the lactic acid from your muscles and bloodstream.  I encourage you to take your pulse after your warm up and through your recovery swim.  You don't want to start the 200 until your HR is back to the base HR after your warm-up.  Then when you do the 200, the same thing, even pace throughout.  Yes, it should be a maximal effort, however it should be a maximal effort that you can maintain through the entire test distance.

I encourage people to re-test every 4-8 weeks.  More frequently if you feel you have made significant gains but no more frequently than once every 4 weeks.  I also encourage people to plan their test coming off of a recovery week if you have recovery weeks in your plan.

Another way to make sure you are completely rested between tests is to do the 400 one day, and do the 200 at the next workout.  Just make sure you have a full warmup before each test.  The rest of it still applies, you want the fastest pace you can evenly maintain throughout the test.

Hope that helps and hope it isn't too overly technical.

Thanks Scott!

Answers to your questions:

a) Sadly, no, I don't have the splits. This was a last minute decision, so I just went by the poolside clock. In the future I'll bring, or enlist, someone to be a timer.

b) and c) My recovery was waiting at the end of the pool for about three minutes - until my breathing returned to normal. No swimming. Certainly not the 10 minute minimum you suggest. I was trying to do this by memory. I'm afraid my memory wasn't very accurate.

Based on your post, I clearly didn't recover enough to get an accurate timing on the 200. I had also been swimming for a while so I'm not sure I was fully recovered before the 400. On top of that, I had hard workouts the previous two days and my arms were quite sore. It sounds like it would be best to repeat the test after a day or two of rest from a swimming workout, and following the appropriate test protocol.

That said, I suspect your estimate of 1:55 per 100y is reasonably accurate. That would be a modest improvement since last summer when I did 2:05 per 100y in the 1/2 mile OWS race. I hope I've improved somewhat since last summer - I've been working my fanny off!

Scott,

I suspected that was the case.  Our body's naturally remove lactic acid over the course of about an hour.  To clear it more quickly requires keeping the circulatory rate up while not producing any additional lactic acid - the cool down.  Depending upon the amount of exertion, 10-20 minutes of easy swimming will remove the lactic acid buildup from your muscles and bloodstream.  That will allow a maximal effort or help eliminate post-exercise soreness.

When you re-test, make sure you do a full cool-down before you attempt the second test.  You may not feel that much different after 5 minutes of easy swimming vs. 20 minutes of easy swimming, but physiologically there will be a vast difference.

Good luck!  I look forward to the new test results.

Scott - Thanks for the advice to take it easy on the running.  I should have known this myself but it was better to hear it from you.  I took Monday off from running and then ran an easy slow run today which was pretty enjoyable with no discomfort in my knees, calves, or PF.  My run included some modest hills and while I was pretty slow I still felt pretty good.

Kristen - Congrats on your signing up for the Challenge Venice Beach.  I had a look at their website.  I couldn't believe how flat the bike and run routes are.  

Brenda - Good idea on the stability ball for core strengthening.  I really should add in some core work myself.  I really got a kick out of your photo showing the muddy conditions.  

Scott  - Good news about your shoulder.  Have you tried swimming yet?

Janet - Nice race. Thanks for the report.

Stu - I read Friel's book awhile ago.  Maybe now would be a good time for me to reread it.

Donna,

That's what it is about.  Have fun and enjoy the journey!