Add Weight, Add Success? (Page 2)

Okay, either you don't got the whole point or you reading some stuffs that I don't.

First, I second the notion of Biotecnik that you need both endurance and strength in long distance sports like triathlon. Unless you are racing on a treadmill where you can keep constant speed for hours, then you don't need the kind of strength training with heavy loads of weight that increase your acceleration. But, the race you are doing have the things called hills and turns, where in the approach you will slow down your speed then speed up again. This is where your STRENGTH training do its  best.

Second, if you think looking good for the race day its not important... WHY THE HECK A LOT OF THE COMPETITORS WENT ON TAN?? They're not underwear model!! I don't see how that "officially" became a necessity in triathlon race?? And please... stop the stereotype that big guys can't run, I know guys who sized twice than the average runners who did marathon last year. And they lift some serious weight..

The problem is that you are overestimating the AMOUNT of strength needed (as well as how you might best develop that strength) to perform those actions.  Triathlon is an endurance event.  Plain and simple.

If lifting makes YOU feel better about yourself, then lift away.  But your attempt to correlate building muscle mass with strength to make you a faster swimmer/biker/runner is misplaced.

To your first point; while there are hills and turns (and wind, surges, current, chop, etc) in a race, the best way to build sport specific strength is by doing the sport.  So, riding and running hills, accelerating out of corners and from stops on the bike, etc.  The strength required is still very small compared to your maximal strength.

As for runners; the generally accepted value is 1-2 seconds slower per mile per pound.  Nobody is saying that big guys can't run (which I don't recall anyone saying) but studies consistently show that an athlete will run faster if they are lighter (to a point).  So, for a larger athlete running a 20' 5k (say at 225lbs), if they were to drop 25lbs they would likely drop anywhere from 75-150 seconds off their race (likely closer to 75 seconds).

Shane

LOL, you seem to not be reading my responses closely, this is from my very 1st post on this thread: "By the way In addition, as a triathlete you can get strenght training via training doing sport specific sessions (i.e. hill runnning/cucling repeats, drills, swim all 4 strokes,  swim w/pladdles, swim w/ ankle lock, etc.)"

Also to echo JK, you seem to believe muscular strenght is a big element needed to go up those hills or speed up; as I alluded on another of my posts, the % of strenght required to sprint, climb a hill or sustain your VO2max power for instance is minor when compare to your 1RM. If you want to become better at climbing hills you have to get on your bike and climb some hills and/or imporve your power; going to the gym to pump some iron won't help you much or at all.



odd, in triathlons since we spend some much time outside running and biking usually we tend to already have a tan, a goofy looking one to boot. Maybe you do so at body building? (is that what you are doing on your avatar?) Maybe for some looking good it IS important, but then that becomes a personal choice rather than a valid to suggest WL is imperative for everyone just because people like me, we don't care at all. Still, I don't know what Tris you go to but the ones I race it seems not all athletes are too concern about looks since we are all wearing lycra trisuits, funny aero helmets, goofy compression sucks, looking bloated half way into the race, and after racing 4+ hrs we all look like shyte! 

Also, I just skimmed through my posts I can't seem to find where I said big guys can't run. Still, while tall athletes like Matt Reed can run very fast they are not big per say, they are lean and fit. Like Shane said (as well as I did on another of my posts) the less amount of weight you have plus the higher your power/pace the faster you'll be. Don't believe me? Lose some weight and go running...

Anyway, you didn't answer my previous questions; can you explain to me in detail how is that incorporating weight lifting will improve endurance for traithlons? Please avoid providing anecdotal evidence. Also, what's your coaching/training experience which leads you to definitively believe that unless you weight lift you won't perform at your very best for endurance sports? Just asking because the current available literature indicates different but as I said, if you have some secret to become faster I am all ears...

it seems that no one has mentioned two things: One is that an overall stronger body is less prone to fatigue and injury. So by doing appropriate weight training exercises, while they may not increase your vo2 max will make your body more efficient, so you will not need to expend as much energy on staying upright, posture, etc leaving more O2 to help with the 10% grade you are riding over... but going along with that is that there is a point of diminishing return. I read somewhere that Lance used to never even want to do a pushup for fear of having more muscle weight on his upper body than he needed.

The second thing is that is seems to me that most people probably don't have to worry too much about "getting too bulky".  Fretting about that is kinda like not going to work because you don't want to be a millionaire. Most people don't have the genetic predispostion and the extremely large percentage of those fast twitch muscle fibers to get bodybuilder huge, just like most of us don't have the aerobic capacity to keep up in the tdf. 

Most strength development, especially early on in lifting, comes from adaptation much more than new muscle growth. It takes a LOT of work to build pounds of muscle, but making the muscles you have play nicely together will only help in the long run. that's my $.02 anyway.

The reason no one mentions it is that becasue there is no evidence that there is such "appropriate" weight training for endurance events like triathlons.  Weight training is unlikely to make you a more efficient cyclist than you would be if you just rode your bike instead.

Note:  There is some evidence that plyometrics have some value for enhancing economy in runners.  Not too surprisingly, these plyometrics are very similar to many "speed" running drills that runners have done for years.

I do agree that most people don't have to worry about getting "too bulky".  It's just that the muscles they are developing are not very specific for triathlons and are unlikely to drive any substantial benefits to that end.

don't most of these studies that show no benefit only measure aerobic indicators?  VO2 max/LT and average power over 1 hour.. stuff like that? or do they put them through time trials before and after?   

Here is what I believe to be a very good article regarding strength training.  

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/a-new-approach-to-strengt.shtml

This paragraph makes sense to me, leading me to believe that there are benefits to a little strength training in your overall training plan:

"As for strength training making you bigger, muscle bound and slower, it is just not going to happen on a high volume endurance based program. Furthermore training functionally is more likely to bring about more neurological adaptations (muscles working together in concert) than actual muscle growth."

exactly what I was trying to get at. 

Nothing wrong with that.  Except the neurological adaptations are going to help you lift better.  If you want the muscles to work together in concert for biking (or swimming or running), then bike (or swim or run).  Speceficity is going to have the greatest impact on those adaptations.

Johnny, That's not what that article is saying in any way... And I do agree with you that swimming, biking and running will have the greatest impact, but that doesn't mean that weight training will not help in other ways, which is what the OP was asking, and what that article outlines.


Edited by Slickster 2009-07-10 8:16 PM

  What I believe is being missed is a discussion on metabolism.  There are three pathways for energy production in muscles: ATP-CP, aerobic metabolism and anaerobic metabolism.  Each of these produces ATP for muscle use under different demands on our muscle.  Stored ATP is used rapidly, in 2-3 seconds, and must be replaced.  Creatine Phosphate will metabolize into ATP for 6-8 seconds until depleted and supply energy for short durations under high force production demands - lifting a maximum weight or sprinting.  Aerobic metabolism produces energy for use in submaximal loads over an extended period of time - endurance sports where demand is below VO2 Max.  Anaerobic metabolism produces energy for activies that continue after phosphocreatine stores have been depleted and that require energy faster than aerobic metabolism can produce it (100% VO2 Max) and lactic acid is produced a as by-product - climbing on a bike.  
 
  Arguably, all athletic movement involves power production and any athletic performance can be improved through increasing the ability to produce more power.  Which metabolic process is required to produce the power is what matters.  A 165lb cyclist covering 50 miles at 24mph produces 277 Watts.  I can deadlift 430lb.  The weight travels 1.75 ft in 2 seconds, producing 510 Watts.  I produce almost twice the power of the cyclist with the same muscles (hips, quads, hams) but I can not out perform him on a bike.  During the lift I am using stored ATP in the cells to produce power and the cyclist is using aerobic metabolism.  Both tasks require power, but the tasks are very different in how the power is produced.

  You could argue that there is overlap between sprinting or hill climbing and high repetition weight training.  However, you would quickly find that trying to find the right level of resistance and the correct number of repetitions to bennefit you would be cumbersome and that just getting on a bike and doing some sprint intervals or climbing hills makes a lot more sense.

  As to the “body building helping triathlon” argument, there is no empirical or anecdotal evidence to suggest that "body building" would benefit endurance athletes.  I would argue that even functional strength training has many negatives for an endurance athlete.  I strength train hard in a manner similar to Cross Fit, but I do it at a cost to triathlon training. 
1.  Time in the gym is time off the road and since there is little to no carryover between the two, triathlon training time is reduced. 
2.  Strength training is a drain on recovery ability and decreases frequency of running/biking/swimming. 
3. Higher body weight requires more power to complete the same tasks in the same time.

  To address the original question...  Weight training should augment tri training if triathlon is what you want to do.  Metabolic conditioning, CrossFit type resistance training that uses uses the anaerobic energy pathway, can certainly help overall conditioning.  I would say it goes quite well with sprint tri training.  Some specific weight training may help in injury prevention, I have had numerous ankle injuries and do resistance training with bands to strenghten my ankles.  Train hard, eat right and recover, your body will build the muscle it needs to do what you ask it.
D

Edited by D51 2009-07-10 9:43 PM

Honestly, I don't think the article says much new.  "Improve efficiency."  Great.  To do so, run.  Or, for running, certain plyometrics can work--these are advanced exercises and should be employed carefully.  There's no evidence that his one-legged squat classifies as "functional".  The above post is better than mine could be in explaining why it probably doesn't.

I agree to what most D51 said, I mentioned this also in my earlier post about the differences of muscle fibers, anaerobic and aerobics..

However, I never mentioned about bodybuilding helps to build endurance. As you might known, there is arguments saying that bodybuilding has "ruin" the essence of strength training. The reason is that bodybuilding is not like any other weight lifting sports, the purpose of it is to build bigger muscle. The way to do it by training the muscle individually, utilizing a lot of isolated exercise targeting a specific muscle. To give a example of this is that sissy squat is a bodybuilding exercise, while back squat are more of a general weight lifting exercise.

As I said, bodybuilding workout targeting muscle individually. It looses it functional purposes when it comes to performance sport (bodybuilding is a physical sport).

But then, my question is if you had better individual muscle than any other athletes in the league,when it comes to synchronize those muscles to do the movements which you need to perform e.g. swim, bike, run, will you be able to maintain the muscle size while gradually change your orientation toward endurance sports?

Can you have slow twitch muscle fiber while maintaining your high twitch fiber through a specialized training and nutrition?

I can only hope we will have a new generation of triathlon athletes who are more built but have the same ability with the current ones.

The beauty of it is *you* can do that (be a triathlete & be more built) if you want to.  Whether or not you'd have the same ability, who knows.  It's up to every individual triathlete what is most important to them, what their goals are, and what they feel is the best way to achieve them.   If people are happy and achieving their goals without strength training, great.  If they are happy and achieving their goals with it, great.  Everyone is wired differently, so find what works for you & go with it.

Not to sound like a hater otongki, but what is your height and weight? 

176 cm, floating around 83 kg, sub 8% bf