China's felmale gymnasts drive me nuts! (Page 2)

But the difference is that at least in the states, the parents KNOW that they are putting their children through this. The Chinese (and no doubt other countries) take the kids away from their families and give the families money for compensation. In the states, the parents put up their life-savings. It's a question of choice. Not saying it's a good thing. Gymnastics is VERY dangerous inherently, and it's only made worse by the culture. Similar to ballet - half my freakin' college had a dang eating disorder of some kind or was at least preoccupied with weight. I was probably border-line. But it was MY choice to an extent. The pressure was there, sure, but I could walk away if I wanted to. Those little Chinese girls have NO choice whatsoever. I'm not justifying what the American kids go through. But at least, as the article evidences, there ARE people who are attempting to change that. You think the Chinese government feels the same way? Doubtful.

Same thing when they claim that the worlds oldest living woman is in China and she's 119 when she's really only 74.  It's kind of like dog years. 

LOL.  Wonder when USAT will start making me racing at an AG lower than what my passport says. 

To placate TV viewers the IOC will "investigate the girls".

The conversation will likely go something like this

IOC: She appears to be 14.

China: Nope she's 16

IOC: Let us see that passport again.

China: Ok here it is see it says she is 16.

IOC: I don't believe it still

China: Too bad the criteria that you used was the passport which is right here. 

IOC: ummm ok.

This is the argument that will never end.  There will never be proof that everyone will accept unless it conforms to what they want it to say i.e. 14 (which very well may be the truth).  I don't see how this will be resolved.  If they take the internet articles as proof over passports it will result in total anarchy and disaster.  This is a complete lose/lose situation.  While I have my doubts as to her age it's not going to be proven, ever.  The Americans should be gracious and just deal with it.  They were fine competing against her until she won (they grumbled a little).  If you want to contest something you do it up front not after you lose.  They had PLENTY of time to argue this ad nauseum wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before the olympics but for whatever reason chose not to do so.

Why ruin what is probably one of the happiest times of a young girls life.  She was the best in the world that day and was rewarded accordingly.  

This would be like having an Athena or a Clyde not weigh in before a race and seeing if you could beat them.  If you lose to them you file a protest on their eligibility but if you win you let it slide.  That, like this, appears highly suspect to me.  A similar situation for those of you in the AG might be that you notice that your competitor has some equipment that is on the banned list and you let it slide until you lose.  Then it's a big deal.  Either you do it up front and demand that eligibility be satisfied or you let it die in a gracious appropriate manner.  I give a lot of credit to the actual gymnasts who have said nothing other than give praise to the girl who beat them.  That is the mark of a true champion, one who loses as well as they win. 

I'm far more irritated at the sore loser behavior of the U.S. than anything else.    

It would be like a guy who weighs 185 racing in the clydesdale division, knowing he weighed way less than the limit. Or 27 year old racing in 20-24.

If you got beat by that guy, would you be a "sore loser" if you complained?

I donno... If they can find the several news articles published some time last year / early this year... those news were about a few of the girls winning some national races, something along the line of "at the age of 14, she is having a bright future" etc etc. 

Disclaimer:  I did NOT read the articles.  Hong Kong (and some other not-so-mainstream Chinese) media found those online archives, sort of like the archieved articles in Boston Globe.  But of course, when the media busted them, the archives were gone. 

And of course, the news reporters/editors can always (or maybe they would be asked to) claim that they took the age wrong the time they wrote the articles. 

This may surprise you, but I actually do think the girls are underage. 

ETA:  about ruining the girls happiest moment.... I don't buy that.  Rules are rules.  They are not supposed to be there in the first place.  What, are they Harry Potter?

Actually, it was raised before the olympics started.  See this quote from an article on CNN

"The New York Times conducted its own investigation, producing similar results that seem to implicate He and two other members of the team. The Times uncovered a 2006 biography on He that lists her birthday as January 1, 1994.

"According to online sports registration lists in China, half the team - He Kexin, Yang Yilin, Jiang Yuyuan - would be under age," the Times reported in July."

Get beat fair and square according to rules and complain = sore loser.

Get beat by those who broke the rules and complain = what I'd expect.

If I beat you in a triathlon by skipping a loop of the bike course, you would likely complain, and by your logic, you'd be a sore loser. 

No you must not have read what I wrote.  If I wait and see if I beat you and don't and THEN complain I'm a sore loser.  If you cut the course its cheating during the event not eligibility.  The two aren't the same even if you want to make the case that they are.

I believe that the USAT agrees with my point of view

10.2 Protests Involving Eligibility. Protests contesting the eligibility of any participant to compete or to represent an organization in an event shall be made in writing to USA Triathlon or to the Head Referee before the event begins. A participant may be allowed to compete under protest if USA Triathlon or the Head Referee deems it appropriate.

Sooooooo racing against that 185 clydesdale trying to hold the ace in your pocket won't fly.   I'm not seeing where the U.S. Team lodged a formal protest BEFORE the games.  If they did I stand corrected but I don't see that they did. 

Meh.  Cheating is cheating... hide behind all the technicalities you like.  I'm out.

Really where?  All I see is this

Wait more from Steve Penny:

How quickly the tide turns from "If they have valid passports bring them on" (aka before losing) to an investigation would help bring closure (aka after losing).  I seriously doubt that the formal protest process of the IOC consists of the USA Gymnastics president saying well I don't know if that's right.  He clearly was not bothered about it BEFORE but is now at least somewhat bothered by it.  But still I see NO sign of formal protest and that is my complaint.  If this issue was serious it should have been completely settled before competition but it wasn't and here lies the mess that surrounds it.

Anybody see this:

http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2008/08/hack-olympics.html

This is a guy who seems to have found primary documentation showing that one of the gymnasts is only 14.

"Officials with the International Gymnastics Federation said that questions about He’s age had been raised by Chinese news media reports, USA Gymnastics and fans of the sport, but that Chinese authorities presented passport information to show that He is 16."

Cheating is cheating - I don't care when it's challenged or pointed out.

You seem to worry about these girls being able to enjoy their moment.  I'd like to see you sell that argument to the girls and their families who trained and dedicated their young lives to winning gold and doing it according to the rules.  Despite the fact that they followed the rules and did everything the right way you want to explain to them that they shouldn't feel slighted while the competition cheated.  There's no way if you were in their (American girls) position that you'd be OK with that.  It's not about being a sore loser, it's about doing what's right and making the statement that it's not OK to cheat in order to gain an advantage.

Still not seeing the formal protest.  The guy next to me "raised questions" about the guy on the beach being eligible to compete as a clydesdale at my last race. 

If the question was raised and answered by a Passport why is it still an issue?  I don't know for sure but I have a pretty good indication that it's directly related to which person took home the Gold.

So what your saying is it's ok NOT to file a formal protest ahead of time (or maybe even after) and then tarnish someones image in a way they cannot defend.  I am almost positive that protests involving eligibility must be settled BEFORE events to avoid this type of thing. 

Clearly there is NO precedent for this type of thing http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/17/prosthetic-limbed-runner-disqualified-from-olympics/

Nope not sure why anyone would challenge eligibility ahead of time in a FORMAL manner to well umm maybe follow the rules or something.  Unfortunately Oscar Pistorius didn't qualify for the olympics but if he had and won and then some runners started complaining would you still feel the same or would you say well he was ruled eligible so that's the end of it. 

What many people seem to be saying is that this girls have been tried and convicted for cheating which HAS NOT happened.  Sure it has happened in the court of BT and public opinion but just ask Rodney King, OJ, Michael Jackson and Robert Blake what the court of public opinion means.  My statement is and will remain that there is no way this is going to be conclusively settled.  Since that is the most likely outcome what can anyone do but accept it the way it is. 

Rules are rules.  What you are saying is "some rules are more important than other rules".  technical rules don't matter as much as competitive rules.  This in essence is saying it's ok if I wait and see how things turn out and then disparage another athlete by not following certain rules.  That is absolutely not ok.  This is exactly like the doping complaints.  People accuse athletes of doping and then when presented with a negative test they say well they still doped no matter what the test says.  There has to be a standard set and met by each and every competitor.  Once that is met it is what it is. 

The facts of the case are this:

1. No formal protest.  (I am sure this needed to be done)

2. The President of U.S.A. Gymnastics said a passport was good enough and now isn't so sure.

3. There will not be evidence admitted into any investigation that changes the outcome.   

Frankly I don't know what the rules are about when these things have to be challenged.  You seem to take issue with people expressing concern and disappointment after the event that the rules were broken.  If the rules say that you can't challenege it after the event, fine.  That doesn't keep me from expressing an opinion and even an observation that cheating was committed.

I can't believe we are even debating this.  CHINA CHEATED

The results of the competion are what they are but that doesn't keep me from being disgusted at this fact and probably will keep me from watching in the future until they crack down on this and make it fair competion.  Until then it's almost thrown in the WWF bin for me.

I take issue with USA Gymnastics NOT FILING a formal protest and then choosing to sully the reputation of another team off the books.  I would take no issue if they filed a formal protest and then people complained that the investigation was shady.  The problem is simply that USA Gymnastics took the position that everything is cool we are going to win and then took a different stance after things didn't pan out.  Opinions are fine but without actual ADMISSABLE proof there is no proof.  It's changing the rules of the competition after the event if over.  I don't understand how they didn't file a formal protest over eligibility if they thought it was an issue.   

They are going to crack down and start tracking ages via a database from earlier times.  Why they haven't been doing this I'm sure defies explanation.  It's clear that these girls didn't just pop up on the radar yesterday.  Why aren't ANY of the international competitions that these girls did presenting forms that show something different.  There's a video out showing Jiang Yuyuan in 2003 stating that she's 12.  So maybe she's been lying for years or very possibly not lying at all.   

I have never disagreed that these girls appear young.  I do disagree that it's been proven that they are young.  My opinion is innocent until proven guilty and I am awaiting the proof.  The standard has been laid down as a passport and until that changes for everyone I can't honestly say that the girls are or are not of age.  It looks very shady but I still stand behind not tarnishing the performance of the Chinese athletes because they did as they were told.

"I have never disagreed that these girls appear young.  I do disagree that it's been proven that they are young.  My opinion is innocent until proven guilty and I am awaiting the proof."

I know, I know, the IOC can't just go off of appearance but in terms of your opinion, have we lost all sense of logic?

My kid's pet hampster at home looks older than these kids!

(China.jpg)