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2012-10-27 12:40 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
No, we cannot armchair QB all military decisions.  But we can demand that we know what really happened.  That's what is ticking me off.  So far it seems like a lot of people have something to hide.


2012-10-27 2:19 PM
in reply to: #4471021

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Master
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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
spudone -

And yeah I'm former military and I hate seeing us lose people.  But I'm not going to second-guess the guys who were on scene.

 /rant off

What ever happened to never leave a man behind?

The embassy grounds had been attacked twice including the breeching of a wall once. Why weren't Specop teams on alert given that this was the anniversary of 9/11?



Edited by verga 2012-10-27 2:25 PM
2012-10-27 6:50 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Scud, if you say there just was no way to help, I believe you. But it doesn't make sense to me how that happened because in my time in that theater, Centcom, AfricaCom, and EuCom coordinated to make sure they had ships near all the hot spots daily. I guess it's more about the prep than the actions during. Either way, not good. Definitely doesn't give me comfort about the 5 lieutenants who worked for me over the years who are now in the Foreign Service. And you were right about distance. My bad there.

My 4 hour comment was the Air Det requirement to have your bags packed if you were on the Air Det so that you could walk on a plane in 4 hours. It was the case even before 9/11.

2012-10-28 10:00 AM
in reply to: #4471004

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
mr2tony - 2012-10-26 1:16 PM
Birkierunner - 2012-10-26 3:04 PM

mrbbrad - 2012-10-26 2:46 PM Who exactly are the "sources"?

I'm betting not the same "sources" that Sen. Harry Reid relied upon to report that Romney hasn't paid his taxes.

So a bunch of non-sources spreading misinformation for consumption by the masses. This is just good politicking right here!

I'm not sure what you are getting at or trying to say Tony.

Could you provide some details or expand on what you are trying to say?

2012-10-28 10:12 AM
in reply to: #4471021

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
spudone - 2012-10-26 1:31 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-10-26 12:17 PM

Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods, the two former Navy SEALS who were among the four Americans inevitably murdered, allegedly disobeyed orders from superiors to “stand down” in the wake of the attack. Despite being told by higher-ups not to respond, they purportedly decided to go to the main consulate building to help U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens and others who were under siege.

The two guys gave their lives to try to save others and the current administration told them to NOT assist, twice.

This administration sickens me.


Criticizing a spec ops battlefield decision is almost always done without all the facts since they're mostly classified.

You want to turn this into a president-bashing session but you don't know what the situation was.  And neither does Fox.  Maybe the ground to air threat was too much.  Maybe they didn't want a Spectre hammering a populated area.  Or any variety of reasons.

You guys make me sick trying to politicize and armchair quarterback every single military decision.  If air support was ordered in and ended up with a shot down helicopter like Somalia you'd be all over the president for that too.

And yeah I'm former military and I hate seeing us lose people.  But I'm not going to second-guess the guys who were on scene.

 

/rant off

This is an interesting response.

The President says he called this a terrorist attack the day after it happened
correct?

Yet for two weeks after he had his spokespersons saying it was due to a bunch of
people unhappy about a video.

And you are outraged that people are bashing the President on his handling of this?

Forget about all the requests that were denied well before the attack, forget about
all of the attacks on the compound months before and noting appears to have
been done?

The President when asked direct question refuses to answer them.

Your outrage at people who want answers seem misplaced at best.  

2012-10-28 12:04 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED

Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but here goes anyways:

The way people are making this out as if Obama himself were on the phone with the embassy that day denying support requests.  Who are the people who actually make that decision?  Are they seasoned military veterans that have been around for much more than the past 4 years?  Aren't these military officers who are trained and responsible to act according to a longstanding set of rules?  Rules that have no allegiance to a specific political party?

I mean, really, was it a politician who denied requests for beefed up security and backup during that firefight?  This whole thing seems like it's skipping an awful lot of responsible parties and just going right to the Commander in Chief to place blame.



Edited by Climbinggonzo 2012-10-28 12:05 PM


2012-10-28 4:00 PM
in reply to: #4472416

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Climbinggonzo - 2012-10-28 1:04 PM

Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but here goes anyways:

The way people are making this out as if Obama himself were on the phone with the embassy that day denying support requests.  Who are the people who actually make that decision?  Are they seasoned military veterans that have been around for much more than the past 4 years?  Aren't these military officers who are trained and responsible to act according to a longstanding set of rules?  Rules that have no allegiance to a specific political party?

I mean, really, was it a politician who denied requests for beefed up security and backup during that firefight?  This whole thing seems like it's skipping an awful lot of responsible parties and just going right to the Commander in Chief to place blame.

2012-10-28 4:00 PM
in reply to: #4472416

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Climbinggonzo - 2012-10-28 1:04 PM

Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but here goes anyways:

The way people are making this out as if Obama himself were on the phone with the embassy that day denying support requests.  Who are the people who actually make that decision?  Are they seasoned military veterans that have been around for much more than the past 4 years?  Aren't these military officers who are trained and responsible to act according to a longstanding set of rules?  Rules that have no allegiance to a specific political party?

I mean, really, was it a politician who denied requests for beefed up security and backup during that firefight?  This whole thing seems like it's skipping an awful lot of responsible parties and just going right to the Commander in Chief to place blame.

2012-10-28 4:03 PM
in reply to: #4472416

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Climbinggonzo - 2012-10-28 1:04 PM

Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but here goes anyways:

The way people are making this out as if Obama himself were on the phone with the embassy that day denying support requests.  Who are the people who actually make that decision?  Are they seasoned military veterans that have been around for much more than the past 4 years?  Aren't these military officers who are trained and responsible to act according to a longstanding set of rules?  Rules that have no allegiance to a specific political party?

I mean, really, was it a politician who denied requests for beefed up security and backup during that firefight?  This whole thing seems like it's skipping an awful lot of responsible parties and just going right to the Commander in Chief to place blame.

Military action is the call of the Commander in chief, not some politician. I am sure there are some on here that are more educated on this subject but that is my knowledge of it.

 

 

 

2012-10-28 4:17 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Gonzo, I don't think it's ignorance. That would be if you didn't ask the question and ignored any way of finding the truth. I think you phrased it quite well and I think the answer is not a simple yes or no.

Fact is that the President does appoint the Secretary of State (in charge of embassies including security at embassies). The testimony before congress was that the Regional Security Officer (RSO) and Ambassador in Libya requested support from his state department chain of command and someone (this is the key question) denied their request.

He also appoints the "combatant commanders" of the different regions. Libya falls in 3 of those regions almost simultaneously. European Command (because they're responsible for the Mediterranean), Africa Command (because it's in Africa after all) and Central Command (because the Middle East extends to that area in terms of influence). The combatant commanders of each region are political appointments and serve "at the pleasure of the President."

Where they come into this is that there were no troops either available to respond, or at least that did respond, to the actions at the embassy. That was either a lack of planning/coordination among the commands or it was a decision by someone higher up (by the way, they answer to the president only. They have admin responsibility to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and Sec Def, but officially, they work directly for POTUS. He signs their fitness reports).
Map of the regions: http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2008/0103/caud/strengthening... />
The Marine Corps provides Marines for security at embassies, but the Corps retains only responsibility for training and filling positions as requested by the state department. They also have FAST (Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Teams) in Rota, Spain, Bahrain, and Yokuska, Japan. None of these were in position to respond or did not respond on 9/11. But the word is that they went from Rota to Sicily and had to wait on clearance to go in to Tripoli. When these arrive, they are trained to provide security until the Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) can steam to an area to evacuate or reinforce the operation.

The president in a non election timeframe (and much less during an election) would not have time to be involved in troop movements unless those movements specifically represented a change in policy of the President and his cabinet.

So to answer your question, yes there are politicians in the decision loop on Benghazi (generals are after all Politicians). There are also commanders, but the common thread between the State Dept, and Combatant Commands is the POTUS.

If there was a clear person to be held accountable in this case, they would have been pushed forward. As everyone is pointing fingers in different directions, it floats to the guy at the top.
2012-10-28 5:19 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
 What I find interesting is that Hillary Clinton held a press conference and fell on the sword for this whole affair. Even more interesting is that Hillary Clinton is still running things over at State Dept. after doing so. Surely she should would have been removed from office by now since the buck stopped with her. Why hasn't that happened yet?


2012-10-28 5:43 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Master
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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED

One of my questions seems to be lost on the media. Why was he there on that day to begin with? That was not the Embassy.  The Embassy is in Tripoli the Ambassador was concerned about security in Benghazi The consulate was not up to standards so why was the Ambassador in a location with know terror threats with no real security in a sub standard building on 9/11? Who told him to go there and why?

2012-10-28 6:06 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Champion
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
2012-10-28 6:35 PM
in reply to: #4472677

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Champion
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SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED

That really doesn't make anything clearer in my book

2012-10-28 6:50 PM
in reply to: #4472653

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
CBarnes - 2012-10-28 3:43 PM

One of my questions seems to be lost on the media. Why was he there on that day to begin with? That was not the Embassy.  The Embassy is in Tripoli the Ambassador was concerned about security in Benghazi The consulate was not up to standards so why was the Ambassador in a location with know terror threats with no real security in a sub standard building on 9/11? Who told him to go there and why?

I heard and I don't know if it's accurate but that one of the two locations in Benghazi was actually a CIA safe house and not part of the State Dept. and that he was there meeting with the Turkish Ambassador regarding getting arms to the Libyan militia. The Turkish Ambassador left unharmed and shortly after our Ambassador was attacked.

2012-10-28 7:01 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Master
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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Why would we need to get arms to the Libian militia they won?


2012-10-28 7:06 PM
in reply to: #4471846

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
verga - 2012-10-27 2:19 PM
spudone -

And yeah I'm former military and I hate seeing us lose people.  But I'm not going to second-guess the guys who were on scene.

 /rant off

What ever happened to never leave a man behind?

The embassy grounds had been attacked twice including the breeching of a wall once. Why weren't Specop teams on alert given that this was the anniversary of 9/11?

On the other hand, why did Congress cut State Department security funding?

2012-10-28 7:11 PM
in reply to: #4472719

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED

CBarnes - 2012-10-28 5:01 PM Why would we need to get arms to the Libian militia they won?

I thought there was still a lot of fighting and violence in Libya, not so?

2012-10-28 7:14 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Yeah mdg,
That was my comment when she came out and said she "was responsible but...blah blah blah intelligence..."

Taking responsibility without being held accountable is not taking responsibility at all. It was a nerf sword she jumped on.

I'd give mad props if there was someone who said "this was on my watch, it was my call, I take responsibility and any punishment for doing so."
2012-10-28 7:47 PM
in reply to: #4472720

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Champion
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
ejshowers - 2012-10-28 7:06 PM
verga - 2012-10-27 2:19 PM
spudone -

And yeah I'm former military and I hate seeing us lose people.  But I'm not going to second-guess the guys who were on scene.

 /rant off

What ever happened to never leave a man behind?

The embassy grounds had been attacked twice including the breeching of a wall once. Why weren't Specop teams on alert given that this was the anniversary of 9/11?

On the other hand, why did Congress cut State Department security funding?

?

2012-10-28 7:48 PM
in reply to: #4472720

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
ejshowers - 2012-10-28 5:06 PM
verga - 2012-10-27 2:19 PM
spudone -

And yeah I'm former military and I hate seeing us lose people.  But I'm not going to second-guess the guys who were on scene.

 /rant off

What ever happened to never leave a man behind?

The embassy grounds had been attacked twice including the breeching of a wall once. Why weren't Specop teams on alert given that this was the anniversary of 9/11?

On the other hand, why did Congress cut State Department security funding?

As the sworn testimony in congress said that funding had NOTHING to do with the lack of security or security assets available in this situation.

But to answer you question maybe it was because of the over $100,000.00 charging station for a couple of Chevy Volts in some other country to provide the appearance we care about the environment. But it really has nothing to do with this situation.



2012-10-28 7:57 PM
in reply to: #4470669

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
Ej, there are talking points and then there are facts.
From CNN:
Statement:

Biden: "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for."

The facts:

According to Democratic House Oversight Committee staff, the amount that the GOP-led House passed for two accounts that pay for embassy security in fiscal 2012 ($2.311 billion) was $330 million less than the Obama administration had requested ($2.641 billion).

A GOP House Appropriations Committee aide confirmed the House bill had less in these accounts than what the administration requested.

However, the final bill, after being worked on by the Democratic-led Senate, put in more money than what had passed in the House. The final bill, which passed with bipartisan support, gave a total of $2.37 billion to these accounts for fiscal 2012 -- about $270 million less than what the administration had requested.

Conclusion: The GOP-led House did initially approve about $330 million less than what the administration requested, but in the final bill, passed with bipartisan support after adjustments by the Senate, put the amount a little closer to the administration's target.

The State Department is under further scrutiny because they denied the request for support for Libya, followed by paying $100K for a charging station for the Chevy Volt in Vienna. I lived in Vienna for 5 years (of and on). The gas prices there would warrant a battery powered car, but with the public transportation in Vienna, I would think the money would be best not spent buying $40,000 cars. They had a VW van when I was there.

So yes, the GOP and the Senate Dems reduced the State Dept budget and then the State Dept wasted funds on non-essential stuff instead of providing security for their post.
2012-10-28 8:03 PM
in reply to: #4472769

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED
crowny2 - 2012-10-28 5:47 PM
ejshowers - 2012-10-28 7:06 PM
verga - 2012-10-27 2:19 PM
spudone -

And yeah I'm former military and I hate seeing us lose people.  But I'm not going to second-guess the guys who were on scene.

 /rant off

What ever happened to never leave a man behind?

The embassy grounds had been attacked twice including the breeching of a wall once. Why weren't Specop teams on alert given that this was the anniversary of 9/11?

On the other hand, why did Congress cut State Department security funding?

?

This is just a wild guess but maybe because the Obama administration thinks it's more prudent to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on charging stations for the GM Volt so they look like the cool hip kids while failing to provide security in dangerous places like Libya?

 

??????

As was stated in the Congressional testimony, that funding cut had NOTHING to do with the assets available to Libya.

While I'm guessing, maybe Congress was concerned that those funds were being used to run guns to Syria or Libya militia?

It's NOT an asset or lack of asset problem crowny, it's a PRIORITY problem.

2012-10-29 7:43 AM
in reply to: #4470669

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED

The real problem is the Presidents complete lack of transparency on this.  We're going back and forth about various leaks coming out, but the real reason is because that's the only information that's coming out.

If President Obama would simply have a press conference and answer basic questions about what happened and who made certain decisions then we wouldn't have all this confusion.  If the military was unable to respond he simply has to say there was nothing we could have done.  Yes he would get dinged by not having the foresight to prepare, but Americans can forgive that.  They cannot forgive having the ability to respond and choosing not to.

My personal opinion is whatever happened they feel it will hurt the President politically so they're laying low and the mainstream media is more than happy to let them.  Therefore people (like me) who want to know what really happened are stuck with various unconfirmed leaks to form our opinions.  It also makes me assume the worse because the Administration won't set the record straight.

2012-10-29 8:08 AM
in reply to: #4472728

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Subject: RE: Requests to help and for help DENIED

GomesBolt - 2012-10-28 7:14 PM Yeah mdg,
That was my comment when she came out and said she "was responsible but...blah blah blah intelligence..."

Taking responsibility without being held accountable is not taking responsibility at all. It was a nerf sword she jumped on.

I'd give mad props if there was someone who said "this was on my watch, it was my call, I take responsibility and any punishment for doing so."

What I'm thinking is that there is more to the event BECAUSE she took the public hit for the administration. Why isn't the GOP screaming for her head too? I know they're focused on smearing the POTUS, but taking Hillary down a peg has to be pretty high on their list too. Seems that having your SOS resign in disgrace would be very damaging to this admin. in it's own right. Unless the buck doesn't stop with Hillary.

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