login
Calling them out for cheating (Page 2)
-
No new posts
|
 2009-07-13 9:46 AM in reply to: #2280622 |
Extreme Veteran  597   Fairfax |  Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheatingExperior - 2009-07-13 9:09 AM strostertag - 2009-07-13 9:55 AM Personally, I think it's in very poor form. She obviously had to get close to pass (i.e. stay to the right until passing), and admittedly she was going faster, why not let her pass? Because it's a race? Understandably. I guess this is where my opinion differs from everyone else. If someone comes up behind you going 1-2 mph faster, and all you can do to hold them off is ride fast for 15 seconds so they can assess their penalty and you cook your legs, what was the point? If thats your pacing strategy, to each his own. *edit for terrible grammar I don't see the point in not letting someone pass if they're going faster than you anyway. All you do is burn yourself out trying to chase someone that you can't keep up with. It might be bad pacing strategy but I just can't see how it is 'bad form'. Maybe poor form was a bad way of phrasing it, maybe bad pacing strategy? If they break your front wheel, you have to drop back, which some people have a problem with because they either have to slow down or break their rhythm while they pass. Isn't that their problem? It is, no argument there. If you want to be a complete jerk, you can surge and not let them pass and make them assess penalties. It's a one-way road while passing, and if you have to drop back you didn't successfully pass, and therefore could be assessed a varying penalty. I guess I'm a complete jerk. If I don't want to be passed and I feel like I've got the energy to prevent it, I'm gonna do what I can to prevent it. If I fail and they get by, I'll say 'nice acceleration' or some such. So at least I'm a friendly jerk! Like I said, if that's your pacing strategy and you have the energy to spend for it, go for it. I just think if you're purposely trying to get people to assess penalties, that's a d*ck move in my opinion. Edited by strostertag 2009-07-13 9:50 AM |
| 2009-07-13 9:54 AM in reply to: #2280778 |
Champion 7595  Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating strostertag - 2009-07-13 9:55 AM Like I said, if that's your pacing strategy and you have the energy to spend for it, go for it. I just think if you're purposely trying to get people to assess penalties, that's a d*ck move in my opinion. Oh, I agree with that. I think we agree that probably it's a bad pacing strategy, but I can easily imagine that I was lulled into a lower effort, and woken up by someone about to execute a pass, and kicked it back into gear, for example. And yes, if someone goes out onto the course with the purpose of trying to make people take penalties, then I'd rather that person just go home, because he or she is making a mockery of the race -- not racing so much as attempting to ruin other people's race. I didn't interpret OP as having this intention, but more as getting caught up in the competitiveness of the moment. That might not have been ideal pacing strategy for OP, but I don't see anything (else) wrong with it. |
| 2009-07-13 10:05 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
Champion 6962  Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating You save up to 40% of your energy by drafting on the bike. That's why it's illegal. If we are going the same speed and you are behind me just sitting on my wheel, guess who will have the fresher legs for the run? (Hint: Answer is the drafter) |
| 2009-07-13 10:07 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
| Member 198 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating strostertag - you're not the only one... I find it overly aggressive/unfriendly when people engage me in a mini-race when I'm simply going about my business, trying to maintain a pace and need to pass them. But some people are just more competitive with others than me, and I'm sure it's not a personal thing. And since I know nothing about the others passing me (age group, ability, strengths, run time, etc.), it simply doesn't make sense to speed up so they don't "beat" me, and go against my training and experience. In the overall picture, they're probably just plain faster and my goals are to improve my personal times between races. Now, I have use the strategy of picking someone ahead of me and seeing if I could catch them to spur myself onward... then if I did catch, I would have to judge whether I could pass and stay ahead, or whether they were generally faster. I guess we have gotten off-topic a bit. There are certainly situations in which people are hanging in the drafting zone, either knowingly or unknowingly. In this case, I would just try to get away from the person, either by letting them go on, or trying to outpace them, based on my interpretation of the situation in that moment and knowledge of my own abilities. I wouldn't actively try to mess with them and get them a penalty. If they're that inexperienced, or that willing to cheat, better to just avoid them. Edited by cpfint 2009-07-13 10:09 AM |
| 2009-07-13 10:28 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating I was puffing along one time in an Oly tri and there was a pack of about 3 or 4 bikers all wheel-to-wheel. Another biker passed them and yelled "Why don't you just get a f'ing rope." At the time what he meant didn't register but as I thought about it I knew what he was saying to them. I've wondered the same things about swim drafting...maybe it is a safety issue on the bike as you'd have incompetant bikers like me plow into you on the downhills if was drafting. I try to stay as far away from people as possible - for their safety and mine. ~Mike |
| 2009-07-13 10:50 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
Extreme Veteran 657 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Getting back to the original post. If I saw a lot of cases of drafting and the RD asked me what I thought of the race, I might mention that it seemed like a lot of people were drafting. I'm not sure I would carry it much further than that. |
| 2009-07-13 10:58 AM in reply to: #2280922 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Rogillio - 2009-07-13 11:28 AM I was puffing along one time in an Oly tri and there was a pack of about 3 or 4 bikers all wheel-to-wheel. Another biker passed them and yelled "Why don't you just get a f'ing rope." At the time what he meant didn't register but as I thought about it I knew what he was saying to them. I've wondered the same things about swim drafting...maybe it is a safety issue on the bike as you'd have incompetant bikers like me plow into you on the downhills if was drafting. I try to stay as far away from people as possible - for their safety and mine. ~Mike Nice line. As for the swim, it seems to me that in a race of any size, it would be nearly impossible NOT to draft in anything except a tt start. And even then, enforcement would be really hard. But if the reasoning against drafting on the bike is that this is supposed to be an individual effort, then in principle that reasoning should apply to the swim as well -- practically, I don't see how it would work. I suppose it could be enforced on the run. There is a slight advantage to drafting there, but the advantage is slight enough that maybe it isn't worth worrying about. |
| 2009-07-13 11:12 AM in reply to: #2279907 |
Master 2491 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating ATLsbr - 2009-07-12 9:34 PM I throw tacks and oil behind me "Wacky Racer" style. I think in the olympic distances they are more strict. I did a triathlon that had both a sprint and olympic distance. I saw 3 penalties for drafting in the Oly but none in the sprint. Also if you did tell an official it becomes your word against theirs. My guess is they can just say "That wasn't me". LOL Do they make a special pack to carry the tack and oil that we can buy online? |
| 2009-07-13 11:13 AM in reply to: #2280712 |
Master 2491 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating joshboots - 2009-07-13 10:29 AM I guess I'm a complete jerk. If I don't want to be passed and I feel like I've got the energy to prevent it, I'm gonna do what I can to prevent it. If I fail and they get by, I'll say 'nice acceleration' or some such. So at least I'm a friendly jerk! +1 Its a race- do you just sit back and let people pass you in the run? In the run, I'm pretty much giving it all I've got, so they tend to get by then. |
| 2009-07-13 11:23 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
| Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Someone mentioned the spirit of the rule. I think that hits the nail on the head for the origional post and the sub posts too... I guess if I see someone enters in the draft zone when trying to pass, or what not, it would not bother me. You know if it gets easier to keep up with the guy or girl in front of you. Seriously though, these guys may as well have been in a pace line in. I am willing to admit that maybe what I saw was not drafting, they were, afterall, pulling away from me after they passed... Im pretty confident though... It just evoked a thought about how the rules are actually enforced. I know I will alsways be able to sleep at night... |
| 2009-07-13 11:52 AM in reply to: #2280778 |
| Fishers, IN | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Even pacing is how most races are won, not by "racing" a person by holding them off to later inevitably be passed because they are the stronger rider. By accelerating and slowing you are just burning up both of your energy while the rest of the field is not...bad move, but everyone has the right to be foolish. If you are duking it out and you know that the two of you are likley to be first and second, well then it might be a part of a good strategy. If someone was truly drafting off of me for an extended period of time, I don't know that a squirt of gatorade over the shoulder would not do the trick. You likely would not hit them, but they might get the idea. |
| 2009-07-13 12:16 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating sometimes its non-intentional. races with 1500+ participants its difficult not to draft at some point. i have never gotten a penalty and never had i intentionally drafted but as you get close and there are hundreds of people on bike course its tough to sometimes avoid it. i certainly do it on the swim and run. |
| 2009-07-13 12:19 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
Master 1359 South of SLC | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating You need to be a little careful about how aggressive you are about calling someone out. I have seen people almost come to blows on the bike leg, continue it through the run, and have it carry over to the post-race activities. At that point it was ugley, involved the racer's families and was an embarassment to everyone involved. Mike |
| 2009-07-13 12:27 PM in reply to: #2281083 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating monkeyboy64 - 2009-07-13 12:12 PM ATLsbr - 2009-07-12 9:34 PM I throw tacks and oil behind me "Wacky Racer" style. LOL Do they make a special pack to carry the tack and oil that we can buy online?I think in the olympic distances they are more strict. I did a triathlon that had both a sprint and olympic distance. I saw 3 penalties for drafting in the Oly but none in the sprint. Also if you did tell an official it becomes your word against theirs. My guess is they can just say "That wasn't me". Yeah, you can find it in the branded merchandise section on the slow twitch site.... 
Greg |
| 2009-07-13 12:47 PM in reply to: #2280065 |
Regular 186 SW VA | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating I too have "hypno" drafted on the bike and run... not because I thought I was going to be faster... it was just because I was enjoying the view. I would never call someone out for cheating, thats their deal... for being rude or just being an a-hole... everytime (wait what does that make me :D |
| 2009-07-13 1:15 PM in reply to: #2281461 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating I think it bothers me when I see it done, but I don't think it really impacts me too much or my standings. If I was looking at a podium spot, and saw it, I might be a little more vocal. Like in most sports, I don't call out the individual, but I might mention to the RD/official that I saw lots of drafting and/or other violations and suggest they get a little tougher with officiating or look out for it. BTW, the only time I saw a case of blatent drafting that REALLY bothered me is when I saw a guy clearly pulling a female around the course. I was riding behind them for a long while and she was on his wheel the entire time. I felt angered for the other female athletes because this one was getting a clear advantage... |
| 2009-07-13 1:22 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Sounds like what Experior is saying is that you should pass him quickly or he'll sprint you to keep you from passing. As long as you don't slow back down, that's cool. Otherwise, I'd get out the roman chariot wheels ala Ben Hur...maybe a whip too. But here's my question on that isn't SHE in a different wave? and different category? So were you really racing her or just being a jerk and affecting her time? I had an interesting encounter with a drafter. I passed a lady (that had a 10 min head start because I was in the clyde wave and she was an AGer). She jumped right-on to my wheel and stayed there no matter what I did. About 5 miles later, I went over a bump and heard a thud and a crash. My bottle had fallen out of my seat bottle cage and she apparently hit said drafter. I felt bad that she hit it, but she should've been far enough-back to go around it. I saw later she was DQd (don't know if that should'a been DNF). So there's an example of Karma knocking her out. As for the swim. You gain a lot of advantage from drafting in the swim, but what's the safety concern? Front swimmer stops, back swimmer bumps into front swimmer, you look at each other, cuss, and start swimming. You're not going 20+ mph like you are on the bike. Same on the run, no real benefit, not a serious safety concern unless you're drafting Terry Tate and he turns-around and runs back at you... |
| 2009-07-13 1:54 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
Extreme Veteran 314 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating At this point, I really don't care much about people drafting. I try to worry about my own bike and I can't afford to let others get in my head like that. The only reason I have a problem with it, is that it creates packs several riders wide and several riders deep, making it nearly impossible to pass. Happened to me yesterday, and I had to make the call of going outside the lines to pass, drop back, or draft unintentionally. Wasn't going to let a lazy pack of riders keep me from my own pace, so I had to go "outside the line" a bit. Was it breaking the rules? Yes...but was it done in a manner that had ill-intent? Of course not. I could have accused the riders of blocking, but it's just not my style. Of course, someone did remind me not to do what I did and I wanted to respond with "quit blocking/drafting," but I was already past them. The thing about Triathlon is that you get a mix of different types of people between the degrees of elite and just for fun. Some people fail to realize that you aren't out there just trying to finish...on the other hand, some elites or top performers don't realize that some people are out there just trying to have a good time. Edited by nhangen 2009-07-13 1:55 PM |
| 2009-07-13 2:01 PM in reply to: #2281585 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating GomesBolt - 2009-07-13 2:22 PM Sounds like what Experior is saying is that you should pass him quickly or he'll sprint you to keep you from passing. As long as you don't slow back down, that's cool. Otherwise, I'd get out the roman chariot wheels ala Ben Hur...maybe a whip too. But here's my question on that isn't SHE in a different wave? and different category? So were you really racing her or just being a jerk and affecting her time? I had an interesting encounter with a drafter. I passed a lady (that had a 10 min head start because I was in the clyde wave and she was an AGer). She jumped right-on to my wheel and stayed there no matter what I did. About 5 miles later, I went over a bump and heard a thud and a crash. My bottle had fallen out of my seat bottle cage and she apparently hit said drafter. I felt bad that she hit it, but she should've been far enough-back to go around it. I saw later she was DQd (don't know if that should'a been DNF). So there's an example of Karma knocking her out. As for the swim. You gain a lot of advantage from drafting in the swim, but what's the safety concern? Front swimmer stops, back swimmer bumps into front swimmer, you look at each other, cuss, and start swimming. You're not going 20+ mph like you are on the bike. Same on the run, no real benefit, not a serious safety concern unless you're drafting Terry Tate and he turns-around and runs back at you... BTW, I got a nice kick to the face drafting someone who slowed for a split second to sight, then started kicking again after being sure they were going the right way. Not fun. Glad I have a nice pair of goggles that are easy to fix. |
| 2009-07-13 6:00 PM in reply to: #2281585 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating GomesBolt - 2009-07-13 2:22 ... As for the swim. You gain a lot of advantage from drafting in the swim, but what's the safety concern? Front swimmer stops, back swimmer bumps into front swimmer, you look at each other, cuss, and start swimming. You're not going 20+ mph like you are on the bike. Same on the run, no real benefit, not a serious safety concern unless you're drafting Terry Tate and he turns-around and runs back at you... Best explanation I've heard for the reason it's OK to draft the swim but not the bike. |
| 2009-07-13 6:36 PM in reply to: #2282383 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating gearboy - 2009-07-13 7:00 PM GomesBolt - 2009-07-13 2:22 ... As for the swim. You gain a lot of advantage from drafting in the swim, but what's the safety concern? Front swimmer stops, back swimmer bumps into front swimmer, you look at each other, cuss, and start swimming. You're not going 20+ mph like you are on the bike. Same on the run, no real benefit, not a serious safety concern unless you're drafting Terry Tate and he turns-around and runs back at you... Best explanation I've heard for the reason it's OK to draft the swim but not the bike. But is the no drafting rule on the bike really about safety? I mean, there are plenty of bike races (not to mention ITU tris) where drafting is legal. (Yeah, I know that there are also crashes in those races, but the point is that the safety issue does not prevent these races from occurring or allowing drafting.) I guess I just assumed no drafting on the swim was for the reasons I gave earlier, but maybe I've got it totally wrong. My suggested explanation was speculation. |
| 2009-07-13 7:58 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
| Master 2460 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating I actually hope (rather, choose to believe) that the vast majority of these so-called drafters were either not intentionally doing it, or legitimately clueless about drafting. I know that there are a some good athletes from other sports who may choose to jump into a triathlon without knowing much about the sport, and actually not know about the draft rule. It just doesn't make any sense at all why someone would intentionally enter a race with the plan to draft when it's clearly illegal AND everyone including your draft leader could call you out on it. It's so egregious that I think that in the majority (vast majority?) of cases, it's not because someone has preplanned to increase their performance with the draft. I do think that the draft leader is also particularly sensitive to any draftees, and may equally overcall people drafting. Not to say any of you are in this category, but it certainly does happen - I've gotten yelled at by grumpy older slower runners (not bikers) who took offense to me running behind them for 10 feet after exiting a crowded section, and I'm the LAST person who would pace behind people going nearly 30sec/mile slower than me in a race. But that's the way they perceived it, and I'm sure it happens even more on the bike. |
| 2009-07-14 12:23 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
Master 2665 The Whites, New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Just to make it clear (which my first post didn't) - she had been "drafting" (or close enough that my personal space was definitely feeling it) for a good mile or more. We were only about two miles out from T1 at that point, in an eight-mile bike leg. I was pizzed that she wouldn't just get off my tail, and she decided to make her first pass in a dumb place, so I had some fun with it. Petty? Eh, probably. Fun? Sure thing! It's a race, it is a perfectly legitimate strategy, and I felt like in some small way I got her back for using my rather large windbreak to her advantage and then not having the nads to make a strong pass. I knew I wouldn't report her, which was the point, but she paid for her advantage. Who cares that I blew up? I've got good recovery and was sailing again in no time, as much as I was ever sailing.  And I don't know that SHE was necessarily in my AG, but if we were the same age, we would have been going against one another. Not all sluggers are boys... |
| 2009-07-14 1:35 AM in reply to: #2283201 |
| Master 2460 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Slugger - 2009-07-14 12:23 AM Just to make it clear (which my first post didn't) - she had been "drafting" (or close enough that my personal space was definitely feeling it) for a good mile or more. We were only about two miles out from T1 at that point, in an eight-mile bike leg. I was pizzed that she wouldn't just get off my tail, and she decided to make her first pass in a dumb place, so I had some fun with it. Petty? Eh, probably. Fun? Sure thing! It's a race, it is a perfectly legitimate strategy, and I felt like in some small way I got her back for using my rather large windbreak to her advantage and then not having the nads to make a strong pass. I knew I wouldn't report her, which was the point, but she paid for her advantage. Who cares that I blew up? I've got good recovery and was sailing again in no time, as much as I was ever sailing. And I don't know that SHE was necessarily in my AG, but if we were the same age, we would have been going against one another. Not all sluggers are boys... Not trying to only play devil's advocate, but it can be surprisingly difficult to quickly pass someone who is riding at or slightly above your ability. I've been stuck behind many a rider on hammerfest bike rides where I know I can outride the person in front of me, but to make the pass within the requisite 10-15 seconds would take so much energy that I'd probably fall right back behind them after a few minutes. Smarter in that situation to sit in back until a good section to pass where you know you won't get immediately re-passed, such as the crest of a hill with a fast downhill to recover on. Of course, it's your responsibility in a tri race to not draft, so she sounds like she may have drifted too close. It's also pretty easy for you as the front rider to avoid a draftee in a tri by cutting laterally across the course when you get a big opening. That makes it pretty obvious that you don't appreciate their presence behind you, and removes the draft. You'll actually see this a lot in draft-LEGAL pro bike racing where the lead break guy wants to break the drafter behind. I think that's a lot better than giving them the opportunity to continue to draft by accelerating just as they attempt to push in front of you - which renders them unable to ride in front of you despite their best intentions. |
| 2009-07-14 9:45 AM in reply to: #2283201 |
| Member 198 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Slugger - 2009-07-14 1:23 AM Just to make it clear (which my first post didn't) - she had been "drafting" (or close enough that my personal space was definitely feeling it) for a good mile or more. We were only about two miles out from T1 at that point, in an eight-mile bike leg. I was pizzed that she wouldn't just get off my tail, and she decided to make her first pass in a dumb place, so I had some fun with it. Petty? Eh, probably. Fun? Sure thing! It's a race, it is a perfectly legitimate strategy, and I felt like in some small way I got her back for using my rather large windbreak to her advantage and then not having the nads to make a strong pass. I knew I wouldn't report her, which was the point, but she paid for her advantage. Who cares that I blew up? I've got good recovery and was sailing again in no time, as much as I was ever sailing. And I don't know that SHE was necessarily in my AG, but if we were the same age, we would have been going against one another. Not all sluggers are boys... Oh, that helps clarify things. It can be really annoying when someone's just hovering around you... makes you want to return the favor and be annoying in return. (I am certainly not innocent of immature mind games myself.) If you don't care that you got tired, then I don't either! It goes to show that it's definitely a case-by-case basis. Lots of weird stuff happens out there on the course. I still say that challenging every single rider that tries to pass you is probably a poor strategy in the long run, but it's not illegal or anything. I think the no-drafting rules for bikes ARE mostly about safety. And, as gomesbolt said, drafting benefits on swims and runs are minimal, but on a bike, they are major and can make a huge difference in your energy expenditure. Triathlons are solo sports, but road races are a whole different thing, where people work together in teams or alliances. Drafting and pelotons are part of the deal (and appeal) there. And it is a whole lot more dangerous than triathlon. Plus, you never, EVER see anyone doing a road race on a tri-bike. That is way dangerous. |
|
|
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK