To lift or not to lift... (Page 2)

I have read a good deal of the scholarship on this issue (especially about running, but also a bit about swimming and biking), and IMO it is pretty clear that there are just too many factors that are too difficult to control for (and no doubt some that are totally unknown to us) to be able to conclude much about impact of weight training on s/b/r performance for amateur athletes. Most of the studies just aren't convincing or relevant because of the assumptions that they make or the subjects that they studied. Unfortunately, a lot of the stuff that is written for general consumption (even by people who should know better) has far too much anecdotal evidence, which is extremely difficult if not impossible to assess, much less to translate to one's own situation.

HOWEVER, there is a scientific consensus (or as close as one gets to consensus in the area) that weight training helps to build and maintain bone and connective tissue strength, among other things. If you are 40+, weight training is a good idea for this reason if no other. The studies suggest that not much training is required to get the benefits.

-----------------------------------------
Some details for anyone who cares
-----------------------------------------

An example study. Here's an example of what I'm talking about ("Maximal strength training improves aerobic endurance performance" ). This study found a statistically significant improvement in 'endurance' (measured as time to exhaustion, TTE) for a weight-lifting group over a control group of cross-country skiers. But there are several problems here. First, is TTE a relevant measure of performance? Arguably yes, but arguably no. (TTE is better known as 'time to blowing up', and of course blowing up is something that we try to avoid in endurance sports, at least until the end.) Second, TTE does not indicate how FAST the athletes were going, nor how efficiently they were using energy while doing it. Third, these are cross-country skiers, whose strength training consisted in a cable exercise that very closely mimics actual skiing. It is very difficult to do this for running or swimming (but perhaps not so hard for biking but even there probably easiest to do by just mashing up a hill!). Fourth, TTE was measured on a machine that was very similar to the machine on which they did the weight training, rather than actually skiing (in which all sorts of other muscles and other factors will come into play). Finally, the athletes who strength trained did it in addition to regular training. So in fact they trained more than the control group. Who's to say what would have happened if they spent that time doing more endurance training? Unfortunately, many many of these sorts of study are plagued by these and similar problems. We shouldn't necessarily blame the experimenters (though perhaps we should blame them for over-hyping the significance of their result -- note the very misleading title of this study, which asserts a very general conclusion from a study of cross-country skiers). It is easy to criticize these studies, but very difficult -- maybe impossible -- to design one that takes all of the relevant factors into account.

Not much required. In fact, the trend in studies of weight training is towards concluding that one needs considerably less weight training than people used to think in order to reap the benefits. For example, when I was in college, many folks used to say that you needed to strength train 4x/week, and that you needed to do 3-5 sets on each exercise to failure or thereabouts in order to see significant benefits. There is plenty of evidence against this view (for those who just want to get the basic benefits -- we are not talking about olympic lifting here). 2 sets per exercise, NOT to failure, twice a week, seems to be considered, in many circles, as enough to get the benefits (stronger bones, stronger connective tissue).

Does any of that help you win a triathlon? I have no idea.

The last 2 posts put a good spin (probably not the right word to use) on some of what I was saying.

Weight lifting is indeed good for the body, esp. older folks - helps keep muscle loss to a minimum, stronger bones and joints, etc ... also the post before, he does lunges and helps with his biking power.

Like I was saying, all depends on how you weight train and are smart about it you are and you need to include plenty of stretching and flexibilty training with it.

One thing I left out of my long original post (believe it or not I was actually trying to keep it short and left out a bunch of stuff I wanted to say), but weight training can also be anything that puts the body or muscles under greater stress than normal ... such as resistance bands, pushups, mashing up a hill .... the previous poster says about the study "what if the weight training group spent the extra time skiing vs. weight lifting ..." ... and that is probably true ... vigourous cross-country skiing places enough extra stress against the leg muscles it would be the same as light leg squats or lunges in the weight room.

Same with elite level triathletes ... running miles and miles up a hill, or mashing like crazy up a steep hill ... all work the legs hard enough that it would be like working with weights. ...

... that is why the more fit you are or if you are at the HIM and IM levels you would probably see only a small benefit from weights.

On the other hand, lift properly and the extra bulk of muscle will take care of itself - should not slow you down at all or decrease endurance or your TTE.

But for those just beginning or with extra fat to lose, nothing can beat weights then cardio.

Also, I wasn't neccessarily saying weights then cardio is a better combination than doing double amounts of cardio or cardio and a 20 mile bike ride up the hills .... (they will both work you hard) ... what I was repeating was an article that studied weight lifting followed by cardio vs. cardio first then weights ... which burns more fat and keeps metabolism boosted up for longer ....

... and this was based on the same control group - not different types of athletes or different sports .... but it was concluded that lifting first then cardio had a better effect on weight loss and keeping metabolism boosted for a longer time ....

... folks looking to lose weight, build strength, get in shape all at the same time ... weights is the way to go ... but please include cardio afterwards ... ALWAYS!!! ... don't wait 20 or 30 years to finally learn what I've learned ... that you can only lift and be in shape .... and if you are tired, sick, out of energy, or out of time and have to chose one .... skip the weights that day and do the cardio .... you can always lift weights at your next workout but always try to get in cardio even if it's just walking ...

.....

Whenever I read research on a topic my first question is:  Who were they studying?  Very rarely are any of these studies done on masters athletes, and you can bet the results of many of them would be different.  I'm 43 and I don't think I will always have the same results as those that were tested on professional cyclists!

 This has nothing to do with weight lifting, just about studies in general.

If you want to lift and it makes you fee/look/perform better, go for it.

You're right, and this was part of my point, but it's worth noting that many of the studies that conclude that weight lifting has significant benefits for older people were done on...older people.  (Actually most of them are done on people quite a bit older than you or I, but some have been done on 40-50 year olds and the results are similar.)  Apparently gerontologists have little else to do, judging by the number of these studies.

Go run hills.  Sport-specific strength training.  Bonus.  Go to a ski resort and run up the main slope.

I do pushups and ab work only. I have always believe that upper body strength will aid you in your running and I believe it helps me in the swim.

My workout schedule only allows me to do them at night when the wife and kids go to bed, so I am not sure if I would consider it a workout per se, but if 200 pushups every other night and a 100 crunches nightly consists of the type of workout the OP is referring too, then yeah, I believe in strength training.

There is nothing wrong with lifting and weight training and if you want to do it, have at it!  It has been shown to be good for losing weight, body sculpting and injury re-hab to balance out muscle imbalances.

But there is no DEFINITIVE research that proves (or disproves) that weight training will increase your performance in endurance events or that it will prevent injury (how can you prove something will prevent an injury??  That just sounds ridiculous to anyone who really thinks about it ....).

Do it all you want as it is your body and your training.  But if your goal is simply to become a faster endurance athlete, there are much better and proven ways to use the time that you have available for training.

(Very diplomatic answer from me, and is the last I will post on this thread .......)

I decided to follow a BT plan as closely as I could, and it included lifting.  Something I never included before (along with core work).  Since I started lifting, I have been making faster gains and feeling stronger than in the past.  I'm sure a lot has to do with the increase in S/B/R, but I can't in good conscience say that lifting had nothing to do with the improvements.

For me, I think lifting helped.  However, it's the first thing that goes if I'm running short on time or if I feel over trained...

Take it for what it's worth.

The plan I picked for the Oly has strength training in it too - another BT plan. Thought that was interesting.

I just have to find a coach that likes to drink Guinness....  then there will be Guinness

I'll coach you and include that into your dietary intake.  I find it works really well for me!

My services are available. 

Playing football I lifted alot.  3x week in season 6x week out of season.  Playing defensive tackle I also lifted very heavy.  I can tell you the result was not increased weight loss.  Rather, I bulked up, which was necessary to beat O-linemen who generally outweighed me by 20-30 pounds, and when I was done with football had all of this extra bulk which slowly but surely turned to glop.  I came to triathlon to eliminate the glop. 

IMHO, I think weight lifting has its place in protecting injured areas, toning up, etc.  For example, I have bad shoulders so I do rotator cuff stuff.  I think 2x week 20-40 minutes of circuit training is more than enough as we need not worry about throwing a reverse shoulder blocks of bull rushing a 275 guard.  If you like lifting have at it, but I do not think is really helps with weightloss.

You are born with the same amount of fat cells that you pretty much have all your life.  Those "fill up" or empty as necessary throughout your life.

You can modify your muscles to increase in size and composition throughout your life.  When you start excercising you start to call upon your muscles a lot more and use up the bodies energy stores.  Your main source of energy (and the only one your brain uses ironically) is glycogen ...... pretty much carbos.  The second source is fat, which is converted over to glycogen through the liver, but at a much slower rate than what you need for sustained excercise which makes it your secondary means and is used more in longer events and lower aerobic excercise.  Your third and final source, which you also never want to get to, is your muscle proteins where your body starts to scavenge anything it needs to survive and keep your organs working.

People always are schocked that when they start to excercise that they gain weight.  The reason for this is that increased muscle fibers weigh more than corresponding fat cell depletion.  "Fat weighs less than muscle" is a common thing you'll hear.  The key things to look for when you are starting out weight loss is measurements of your body.  "How are your clothes fitting" kind of thing.  This is one of the reasons lifting has shown to help with weight loss when mixed with aerobic work.  You are building muscle and doing low end aerobic work which burns fat off and tones things up.