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10 swimming myths....busted (Page 2)
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 2010-05-11 8:53 AM in reply to: #2850067 |
Master  2327    North Alabama |  Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....bustedThanks for the swim tip. I love the tidbits like this that will help EVERY ONE of us regardless of our ability. I may be wrong, but I had always heard to carry your pulling arm to your thigh, and figuratively, touch your thumb to your thigh on the exit. This ensures you get the full pull out of the motion. If, the front 1/4 of the stroke is still strong, should you not be consistent all the way through with the stroke to the thigh? Or quickly return to the catch? Again, thanks. And welcome to BT! |
| 2010-05-11 9:17 AM in reply to: #2850529 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted bryancd - 2010-05-11 7:32 AM When swimming ofr pace, my hand usually begins to exit the water for the recovery just past my hip as opposed to my mid-thigh, shortening the pull and returning to the front more quickly. Is there an ideal point of exit or is that swimmer dependent? Not sure if it's ideal or not, but my stroke finishes right around my drag suit. As a kid we were taught to finish the stroke completely with a little flick of the wrist at the end. That idea slowly disappeared as I got older. I think studying the very top athletes and seeing what they do is what started to change things. Text books might have reasoning for one approach, but the real world dictates something entirely different. |
| 2010-05-11 9:19 AM in reply to: #2850855 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted So that would be about mid-thigh for you, TJ? Does this change at all when you increase your pace/turnover? |
| 2010-05-11 9:28 AM in reply to: #2850856 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted |
| 2010-05-11 9:29 AM in reply to: #2850856 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted bryancd - 2010-05-11 9:19 AM So that would be about mid-thigh for you, TJ? Does this change at all when you increase your pace/turnover? No, more like waist. I should have clarified when I said drag suit. I'm a brief and drag suit kinda guy. No jammers for me. |
| 2010-05-11 9:32 AM in reply to: #2850884 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted I rock up the Speedo.  That's what I was thinking you meant. Would you agree that when swimming in a wesuit, extending that just a bit can be more beneficial as you already have an exaggerated body position in the water? |
| 2010-05-11 9:32 AM in reply to: #2850067 |
Expert 790 Frisco | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted thanks for the info! |
| 2010-05-11 9:35 AM in reply to: #2850893 |
Master 1420 Reston, VA | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted bryancd - 2010-05-11 10:32 AM I rock up the Speedo. That's what I was thinking you meant. Would you agree that when swimming in a wesuit, extending that just a bit can be more beneficial as you already have an exaggerated body position in the water?Bryan, I read one of Coach Flanagans articles last year (he is one of the premier OWS coaches in the nation) that suggested you actually shorten your stroke a little in OWS. I am looking for the article now and will post it if I can find it. My stroke ends about where TJ's does. |
| 2010-05-11 9:36 AM in reply to: #2850895 |
| Expert 618 | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Great to see you posting here! Hopefully your thoughts and ideas go over better here than they did on that "other" tri site where you got lambasted for talking about a product. It is good to see constructive discussion instead of product-bashing in the thread.  |
| 2010-05-11 9:41 AM in reply to: #2850780 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted LostSheep - 2010-05-11 9:53 AM Thanks for the swim tip. I love the tidbits like this that will help EVERY ONE of us regardless of our ability. I may be wrong, but I had always heard to carry your pulling arm to your thigh, and figuratively, touch your thumb to your thigh on the exit. This ensures you get the full pull out of the motion. If, the front 1/4 of the stroke is still strong, should you not be consistent all the way through with the stroke to the thigh? Or quickly return to the catch? Again, thanks. And welcome to BT! I'm no swim expert, but I think part of Mr. Hall's point was that having your arm extended in front of you (increasing your length overall) is what allows you to maintain momentum. So the goal should be to get that arm back out in front, fully extended, as quickly as possible once the most powerful part of your stroke has ended. There, extended in front of you, is where there should be a pause in your stroke. In other words, sacrificing the less powerful waist-to-mid-thigh part of your stroke for the sake of a faster recovery to a fully extended arm is more efficient than delaying your recovery stroke to get the last little umph out of your pull. |
| 2010-05-11 10:28 AM in reply to: #2850067 |
Veteran 274 Everett, WA | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted I agree that that last little bit does nothing for speed. When I'm competing, my stroke shortens and my turnover goes up. - exactly your point. But When I'm training, I do lengthen my stroke so that when it shortens up in competition, it isn't too short. Plus I work the triceps a bit more, which fits into my philosophy of spreading the load between muscle groups. Should I train the way I race? Probably. But I get pumped for races & it makes sense for me to practice extra long strokes so that I have a good/decent stroke on race day. For folks who already have a short stroke, focusing on finishing (possibly just as a drill) is one way to increase the length of the power portion of the pull. I say this because when I try for that extra length, I also tend to go a little deeper with my pull which increases the distance my hand travels through the power phase of the stroke. Regards, Dan |
 2010-05-11 11:00 AM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-05-11 1:56 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Regular 230 Napoleon | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Looking forward to incorporating it into my swim workout tonight. |
| 2010-05-11 2:00 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Master 1325 Lake Oswego, OR | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Great analysis Gary (as if you need my opinion) As you noted, caution must be used when you analyze the stroke of a sprinter like Popov, or middle distance swimmers like Phelps and Thorpe and apply it to us mere mortals swimming open water. A strong kick completely changes not only your body position in the water, but also increasesf the minimum velocity of a swimmer. I have found that removing the dead spot (I'm a terrible kicker) by catching up is a lot more efficient. However I am mindful that I should not rush my stroke and lose the push phase. No reason to abandon that portion of the stroke, it helps to reinforce a streamlined position as well as provide power while using muscles differently. |
| 2010-05-11 2:10 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Master 1325 Lake Oswego, OR | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Just dropped in at Slowtwitch and saw this same post by Gary. It appeared to me his comments received a very different reception. I thought it provides an interesting comparison between the 2 communities. |
| 2010-05-11 2:11 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Expert 684 Bend, OR | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Guys, is this the real Gary Hall Sr.? Crazy that he'd be posting on here. He's a legend for all, but especially for those of us who live (or lived) in Phoenix. Cool insight and thanks for sharing! |
| 2010-05-11 2:42 PM in reply to: #2851811 |
| Expert 987 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted E=H2O - 2010-05-11 3:10 PM Just dropped in at Slowtwitch and saw this same post by Gary. It appeared to me his comments received a very different reception. I thought it provides an interesting comparison between the 2 communities. I don't even like to go visit and "browse" that other site. Would you care to give us a summary of the 2 different receptions? |
| 2010-05-11 2:47 PM in reply to: #2851811 |
| Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted E=H2O - 2010-05-11 2:10 PM Just dropped in at Slowtwitch and saw this same post by Gary. It appeared to me his comments received a very different reception. I thought it provides an interesting comparison between the 2 communities. was that the thread were the first post was asking, why the poster {Gary Sr} thought he was qualified to give swim advice?? then Gary Sr. gave a quick summary of why.?? that one was classic and to his credit the guy that asked took all the abuse/ribbing very well, that one was an instant classic |
| 2010-05-11 3:06 PM in reply to: #2851998 |
| Expert 618 | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted The one that went on for days and lambasted Hall had to do with a product he was "suggesting" to the people over at ST. The thread on this exact post over there now is pretty tame in comparison. No real slams (except maybe against McGlone and her swimming background - which is just silliness and thread fodder). |
| 2010-05-11 6:02 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Master 1970 Somewhere on the Tennessee River | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Mr. Hall did post one more time over there that he hasn't posted here. I think he explains well the different styles of free style swimming. I hope he doesn't mind me posting it over here. I do believe it is pertinent to this thread, and may give a better understanding of of the different schools of thoughts expressed by some of us. ************** Let me try to explain more. There are really two techniques of freestyle, hip/leg driven and shoulder driven. Both take advantage of inertia by sustaining power either with the legs or with higher stroke rate. In order to do a hip driven freestyle, you must have strong legs and use a constant 6 beat kick (Hackett, Thorpe, Mellouli, Hoff etc). The advantage of this hip driven technique is that with the legs kicking you have more time to hold in front (more lift) , rotate the hips more (the speed and duration of the counter-rotation is what determines the stabilizing force for each arm pull...ie more power per pull (dps), and for whatever its worth, push out the back. If you don't have the kick driving you, then holding out in front or pushing out back, slowing your stroke rate means you are just sinking or slowing down. Shoulder driven (Pellegrini, Davies, Cochrane, Janet Evans etc) tries to utilize the law of inertia (sustain your speed) not with the legs but by keeping a more constant propulsion in the most powerful position, up front. Ideally, we should have 3 arms and we could act more like a propeller....ever see a propeller with 2 blades? Since we don't, turn your arms over faster and even if you were blessed with great legs, adapt to a shoulder driven technique (fast turnover) and save the legs for the bike and run. Use a 2 beat or soft 6 beat kick. Gary Sr. |
| 2010-05-11 7:07 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted I was hoping to read the other 9 myths. Hopefully Gary wasn't put off by the few negative comments. |
| 2010-05-11 7:08 PM in reply to: #2852612 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Donskiman - 2010-05-11 6:07 PM I was hoping to read the other 9 myths. Hopefully Gary wasn't put off by the few negative comments. There were no negative comments in this thread, just some stupid OT ones. |
| 2010-05-11 7:50 PM in reply to: #2852612 |
| Veteran 812 | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Donskiman - 2010-05-11 5:07 PM I was hoping to read the other 9 myths. Hopefully Gary wasn't put off by the few negative comments. x2 Gary, many of us a _very_ appreciative of having your thoughts here. Please don't be dissuaded from posting based on any constructive criticism to add some vertical spaces to your posts, and the off topic drivel. Cheers! |
| 2010-05-11 9:08 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Expert 838 West Palm Beach, FL | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Thanks Coach! |
| 2010-05-11 10:57 PM in reply to: #2850067 |
| Member 19 La Habra, CA | Subject: RE: 10 swimming myths....busted Gary, How should this information impact my training? Is there any way to promote the type of swimming you are talking about? Should I do more sets with shorter distance to promote a higher cadence, for example 10X100s instead of 3X300s? BTW, I remember watching your son Richard swim at the AZ all state meet back in 99. Fast family. |
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