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Capital punishment??? (Page 2)
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 2006-01-06 9:31 AM in reply to: #317895 |
Elite  2421  |  Subject: RE: Capital punishment???run4yrlif - 2006-01-06 5:07 AM The guards are trained. They have weapons. Prisoners are restrained. When was the last time you heard about a prison guard being killed on the job, outside of a riot? And I think your last sentence there is kinda proving my point.
McFuzz - 2006-01-05 10:10 PMSolitary? They will still have to interact with staffers some times. Also, solitary confinement may truely be a fate worse than death. Prison guards have one of the most miserable and thankless jobs and it may not make the news but they are attacked on a daily basis. What difference does it make if they have a billy club if 10 dudes serving life w/o the possibility of parole jump them. To say nothing of the "poo cocktails". Indefinite solitary confinement would more than exceed the "cruel and unusual punishment" limitations. If we do that, we might as well start flogging them (hmmm). bts |
| 2006-01-06 9:31 AM in reply to: #317999 |
Got Wahoo? 5423  San Antonio | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? run4yrlif - 2006-01-06 8:14 AM I agree about how you'd feel. I'd feel exactly the same way. I'd probably want to take the guy out myself. But that's a base instinct, and base instincts aren't good for society as a whole. If we metted out punishment in that manner, we'd do a whole lot worse to people that committed any crime. Ken Lay? Every Enron share holder should get 5 minutes alone with him with a club. For example. As a society, we need to be better than that.
tmwelshy - 2006-01-06 9:54 AM If someone raped and murdered my 7 year old daughter, I would want him to die - I wouldn't care how it was done, but the mere thought that that person was sharing a joke with a cell mate, reading a magazine or a letter or even tasting food would be appaling to me. Forget about deterent or justice - that man would need to die. Base instinct, yes. So is pulling your hand away from flame. That doesn't mean it's wrong. |
| 2006-01-06 9:39 AM in reply to: #318023 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? tmwelshy - Base instinct, yes. So is pulling your hand away from flame. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Good point, welshy. So how do we determine whether something is right or wrong? Edited by dontracy 2006-01-06 9:39 AM |
| 2006-01-06 9:39 AM in reply to: #317573 |
Pro 4040 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? I didn't reply to the poll because I think it's confusing. I would vote "Yes" I am against it. Here in Canada politicians are making noises about mandatory minimum sentencing for gun crimes as if this is going to make some kind of difference in the number of gun crimes committed. It is a typical politician's stand: get tough on crime! Chuck the criminal in jail for longer sentences, that'll learn 'em! Execute 'em, that will scare the criminal straight! Easy answers to very complicated problems. As soon as you raise the possibility of discussing rehabilitation or, God forbid, root causes, you get dismissed. There is no root cause that can justify murder! Rehab is a pipe dream! Longer prison sentences and capital punishment serve only to prevent us as a society from looking deeper into the problems of crime in the richest society ever to exist on this planet. |
| 2006-01-06 9:49 AM in reply to: #318034 |
Got Wahoo? 5423 San Antonio | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? Valid points and questions and I don't have the answers to and clearly no one does.
Having said that, some people are despicable human beings need to die. You can't expect me to value a human life that does not value human life. It's nonsensical.
I find it disturbing when people give no emotion or judgment to the criminal at all, yet have massive anger and righteousness towards anyone who is fed up with said criminal - in other words, more angry at a politician struggling with the issue (and I typically HATE politicians) than a murderer.... |
| 2006-01-06 10:06 AM in reply to: #318044 |
| Pro 4040 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? tmwelshy - 2006-01-06 10:49 AM I find it disturbing when people give no emotion or judgment to the criminal at all, yet have massive anger and righteousness towards anyone who is fed up with said criminal - in other words, more angry at a politician struggling with the issue (and I typically HATE politicians) than a murderer.... I like to think that our lawmakers should be above pandering to the base emotions of a populace in order to garner votes. Of course, in so many ways, base emotions are the only things that politicians can rely on come election time. It's unfortunate that discussions like this one cannot divorce themselves from the understandable emotion that crime generates. I think it is entirely natural for anger to be directed at lawmakers who see the problem of crime and deliberately choose a route they must know to be wrong in order to ingratiate themselves to the masses. Justice is meant to be blind and devoid of emotion. Although punishment has its place in society, our goal should primarily be the elimination of crime. Just to be clear: I *am* angry at the murderers, just don't expect me to haul out my torch and pitchfork for the next town meeting. |
| 2006-01-06 10:10 AM in reply to: #318044 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? tmwelshy - I find it disturbing when people give no emotion or judgment to the criminal at all, yet have massive anger and righteousness towards anyone who is fed up with said criminal I plead guilty to having done that. I know that this attitude does not help the abolitionist cause. Havingsaid that, some people are despicable human beings need to die. Youcan't expect me to value a human life that does not value human life.It's nonsensical. Well, the sense for me comes this way: it's not the person I hate, it's what they do. Just as a "good" person can one day do something bad, I believe a "bad" person is capable of reform and can start doing good things and become "good". The "evil" rests in what one does and not in who one is. It is good to value human life. I can hate the fact that someone, like a murderer, does not value human life. It's a whole nother leap to say that this murderer is incapable of one day valuing human life. The very fact that valuing human life is a good thing means that I ought to protect human life whenever possible. Even if it means going against my instincts and preserving the life of a murderer. Edited by dontracy 2006-01-06 10:18 AM |
| 2006-01-06 10:13 AM in reply to: #318070 |
Got Wahoo? 5423 San Antonio | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? Fair enough. And I agree about the pandering - It blows me away that this tactic is successful in the first place. |
| 2006-01-06 10:29 AM in reply to: #318075 |
Got Wahoo? 5423 San Antonio | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? dontracy - 2006-01-06 9:10 AM tmwelshy - The "evil" rest in what one does and not in who one is. **Don, I am completely on the other side of this: You are what you do. A man can desire to be good, want to be right and lament what he has done. A person can profess ideals and morals forever - all you are is what you do. Your actions define who you are. It is good to value human life. I can hate the fact that someone, like a murderer, does not value human life. It's a whole nother leap to say that this murderer is incapable of one day valuing human life. **I don't think it is a leap at all. And what if you are wrong about this person when he does profess the value of human life? How do you take his measure...? By his actions...? by that tool, he should have been put to death when his initial actions showed he did not value human life Ultimately I don't care if he can someday value life or anything else. It is not the responsibility of society to integrate or rehibilitate a criminal who not only will not live within it's norms but murders thos that do. |
| 2006-01-06 10:59 AM in reply to: #317573 |
Master 4101 Denver | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? Capital punishment is not about justice. Or punishment. Or prevention. Its about one thing: revenge. It has got to be the most awful thing imaginable to be the victim of one of these crimes (not the actual dead person, although that would suck too, I mean their family, friends...) and I imagine that most of the victims families feel that putting the guilty person to death will bring closure and stop the pain. But I bet if you talk to them 10 years later they will tell you it hasn't helped. |
| 2006-01-06 11:07 AM in reply to: #317895 |
Elite 2733 Venture Industries, | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? run4yrlif - 2006-01-06 6:07 AM The guards are trained. They have weapons. Prisoners are restrained. When was the last time you heard about a prison guard being killed on the job, outside of a riot? And I think your last sentence there is kinda proving my point.
McFuzz - 2006-01-05 10:10 PMSolitary? They will still have to interact with staffers some times. Also, solitary confinement may truely be a fate worse than death. With all due respect you're not even in the ballpark about your factual assertions. Just so you're aware in the jurisdiction I work as a prosecutor next week we start a death penalty trial on three inmates, two already serving life for homicides, that "allegedly" murdered a gaurd. So your statement that gaurds don't get killed on the job outside of riots is totally off base. I am personally prosecuting an attempted homicide in which an inmate stabbed a gaurd. No riot was involved. Also, contrary to your assertion when the gaurds are doing their job and they are not armed. This is a security messure, you can't have one gaurd with a firearm mingling with 100 inmates. Youre opinion on the central issue regarding capital punishment is your own opinion and I respect it, but your factual assertion regarding guard/inmate interaction at prisons is flat out incorrect. |
| 2006-01-06 11:24 AM in reply to: #318147 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? ASA22 - 2006-01-06 12:07 PM With all due respect you're not even in the ballpark about your factual assertions. Just so you're aware in the jurisdiction I work as a prosecutor next week we start a death penalty trial on three inmates, two already serving life for homicides, that "allegedly" murdered a gaurd. So your statement that gaurds don't get killed on the job outside of riots is totally off base. I didn't say it doesn't happen, I asked how often you hear about it. My point is that it's rare. The poster said one reason people should be executed is to prevent them from killng inmates or guards. Do the cases you're involved with concern people incarcerated for capital crimes, or something else? I made the point that any inmate is a potential danger to other inmates or staff. Again, should we kill them all just ot be safe? I am personally prosecuting an attempted homicide in which an inmate stabbed a gaurd. No riot was involved. Also, contrary to your assertion when the gaurds are doing their job and they are not armed. I didn't say they were armed with guns, but don't they have riot batons? But anyway...even if they aren't armed at all, and have absolutely no protection, the point is kind of moot, as we don't execute convicts directly after they are convicted. They sit in prison anyway, for many years before their sentences are carried out. So death penalty or no, there's going to be that risk. This is a security messure, you can't have one gaurd with a firearm mingling with 100 inmates. Youre opinion on the central issue regarding capital punishment is your own opinion and I respect it, but your factual assertion regarding guard/inmate interaction at prisons is flat out incorrect.Edited by run4yrlif 2006-01-06 11:27 AM |
| 2006-01-06 12:10 PM in reply to: #318175 |
Elite 2733 Venture Industries, | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? You said :" When was the last time you heard of a prison gaurd being killed, outside of a riot" The reality is that most offenses against gaurds, including homicides and attempted homicides happen in the normal course of their everyday activities, not during riot situations. And to answer your second question, in the jurisdiction that I work the answer is no, they do not carry battons while patroling inside the general population or "pod" areas. They only carry OC spray (pepper spray), an emergency call button, and handcuffs. Typically the risk associated with inmate on inmate violence or inmate on gaurd violence is far less for those inmates on death row. Death row inmates are housed seperately, are not in general population and have limited actual contact with gaurds and other inmates. To address another couple of points 1) the cost issue. It is true that the cost associated with a death penalty case/inmate exceed an inmate sentenced to life. However, that statistic is a little misleading as the additional cost is directly associated with the increased due process protections afforded death penalty convictions. That is mandatory denovo appeals, seperate housing, and post conviction collateral attack matters. 2) The wonrfully accused issue. It is true that there are the "wrongfully" convicted sitting in prison, right now. But the notion of the "wrongfully" convicted is not limited to death penalty cases. It occurrs at all levels of the criminal justice system. 3) Deterance: The death penalty is a deterant. There are two types of deterance Specific and general. While the death penalty may not be a general detereance it is the ultimate specific deterance. We will deter that individual from ever committing another crime. 4) Due process protections. There are more protections in a death penalty case than any other type of case in American jurisprudence. a) A grand jury must bring an indictment for a death penalty case. b) There is a bifercated trial, that is a guilt phase and a penalty phase. c) The same jury that determined guilt must recommend to the judge the imposition of the death penalty, that imposition is only a recommendation. d) The imposition of death can only be made after the recommendation of the jury and then only if the trial judge determines that the crime is one of the few that meets the strict criteria for impostion of the death penalty. That is the state must demonstrate one of a limited number of aggravating circumstances. e) There is an automatic appeal process of the trial and the sentence. The appeal is a denovo appeal, that is the appealate court reviews the entire record not just those specific issues that may have been preserved via objection. f) There are almost unlimited post conviction collateral attacks that are allowed over and above the appealate process. It's not a perfect system, but the Due Process protections gauranteed under the Constitution of the U.S. are in place. Again, I don't have a problem with those that are anti-death penalty, and as I have said before I find many of the anti-death penalty arguments morally compelling and logically defensable. I simply don't personally agree with the conclusion of the anti-death penalty camp. |
| 2006-01-06 12:20 PM in reply to: #318229 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? ASA22 - 2006-01-06 1:10 PM You said :" When was the last time you heard of a prison gaurd being killed, outside of a riot" The reality is that most offenses against gaurds, including homicides and attempted homicides happen in the normal course of their everyday activities, not during riot situations. Offenses, yeah, but the other poster specifically talked about guards getting killed by prisoners. And if you "hear" about a guard getting killed, it's usually during a riot. You rarely "hear" about guards getting killed as an isolated incident. And to answer your second question, in the jurisdiction that I work the answer is no, they do not carry battons while patroling inside the general population or "pod" areas. They only carry OC spray (pepper spray), an emergency call button, and handcuffs. Typically the risk associated with inmate on inmate violence or inmate on gaurd violence is far less for those inmates on death row. Exactly! So for people convicted for capital crimes, house them in higher security. Death row inmates are housed seperately, are not in general population and have limited actual contact with gaurds and other inmates. Again, for people convicted of the most heinous crimes, you could still house them in a higher-security situation. Just becuase the death penalty goes away (hypothetically), that doesn't mean the prisoners of that caliber should be thrown in with the general population. To address another couple of points 1) the cost issue. It is true that the cost associated with a death penalty case/inmate exceed an inmate sentenced to life. However, that statistic is a little misleading as the additional cost is directly associated with the increased due process protections afforded death penalty convictions. That is mandatory denovo appeals, seperate housing, and post conviction collateral attack matters. Exactly! Take away the DP, and you take away the costs associated with DP. 2) The wonrfully accused issue. It is true that there are the "wrongfully" convicted sitting in prison, right now. But the notion of the "wrongfully" convicted is not limited to death penalty cases. It occurrs at all levels of the criminal justice system. Exactly! BUt when you wrongfully execute someone, that's a different ballgame tham "merely" wrongfully incarcerating them. You can rectify someone wrongfully incarcerated, but how do you rectify someone wrongfully executed? 3) Deterance: The death penalty is a deterant. There are two types of deterance Specific and general. While the death penalty may not be a general detereance it is the ultimate specific deterance. We will deter that individual from ever committing another crime. If someone is incarcerated for life, under proper security, aren't they deterred form commiting another crime in the same manner? 4) Due process protections. There are more protections in a death penalty case than any other type of case in American jurisprudence. a) A grand jury must bring an indictment for a death penalty case. b) There is a bifercated trial, that is a guilt phase and a penalty phase. c) The same jury that determined guilt must recommend to the judge the imposition of the death penalty, that imposition is only a recommendation. d) The imposition of death can only be made after the recommendation of the jury and then only if the trial judge determines that the crime is one of the few that meets the strict criteria for impostion of the death penalty. That is the state must demonstrate one of a limited number of aggravating circumstances. e) There is an automatic appeal process of the trial and the sentence. The appeal is a denovo appeal, that is the appealate court reviews the entire record not just those specific issues that may have been preserved via objection. f) There are almost unlimited post conviction collateral attacks that are allowed over and above the appealate process. It's not a perfect system, but the Due Process protections gauranteed under the Constitution of the U.S. are in place. Yet, ther are still instances where we get it wrong. Again, I use the high stakes argument. Once you kill a person wrongfully, you can't fix it. Again, I don't have a problem with those that are anti-death penalty, and as I have said before I find many of the anti-death penalty arguments morally compelling and logically defensable. I simply don't personally agree with the conclusion of the anti-death penalty camp. |
| 2006-01-06 12:33 PM in reply to: #317573 |
Master 1670 Harvard, Illinois | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? As a cop I would say no. I have seen too many officers lie to get a conviction. |
| 2006-01-06 1:16 PM in reply to: #318243 |
Elite 2733 Venture Industries, | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? I think you're being a little disengenuous regarding your point on "hearing" about a guard being killed, and I think it is being done to try to save your point rather than admitt an inaccuracy. An admission that in all honesty wouldn't even impact your point. What was the last high media coverage of a murdered prison/jail guard that you remember. Do you remmebr an incident that happened up around where you live about a year or so ago? Prisoner killed two guards, a judge and a court reporter in an Atlanta court house? Was that a "riot". The case down here garnered national news coverage and the three seperate trials will be on court TV. What was the last prison riot you can put your finger on in the US? I bet you remember more reports of individual guards being killed than prison riots. And just conceed on one point you may have been wrong. This is a pointless thread. |
| 2006-01-06 1:21 PM in reply to: #317573 |
Got Wahoo? 5423 San Antonio | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? Some folks just need killin'. |
| 2006-01-06 2:00 PM in reply to: #318290 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? I truthfully wasn't being disengenuous, I merely meant that since most of us don't have a bunch of data in front of us, we base our opinions on anecdotal evidence...what's in our frame of consciousness. And I did word my question incorrectly. I didn't mean to ask how many guards are killed in isolated incedences compared to those killed in riots. Rather, I meant to ask "excluding riots, how many guards are killed" (because the dynamics of violence in a mob situation is not the same as in an individual situation." Poor wording on my part. But my point, though I may have made it badly, is that such incidences are rare. I didn't mean that they don't happen. And if they do happen, it's much more likely (anecdotally speaking) to happen from a member of the general prison population, rather than in the higher-security environment of death row. My point continues to be that those on death row should be kept in a similar security environment, DP or no DP. The thread is pointless, but only in that we've discussed this all before. The DP argument as a whole isn't (at least for those of us that don't support it).
ASA22 - 2006-01-06 2:16 PM I think you're being a little disengenuous regarding your point on "hearing" about a guard being killed, and I think it is being done to try to save your point rather than admitt an inaccuracy. An admission that in all honesty wouldn't even impact your point. What was the last high media coverage of a murdered prison/jail guard that you remember. Do you remmebr an incident that happened up around where you live about a year or so ago? Prisoner killed two guards, a judge and a court reporter in an Atlanta court house? Was that a "riot". The case down here garnered national news coverage and the three seperate trials will be on court TV. What was the last prison riot you can put your finger on in the US? I bet you remember more reports of individual guards being killed than prison riots. And just conceed on one point you may have been wrong. This is a pointless thread. |
| 2006-01-06 2:01 PM in reply to: #318292 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? Maybe Vin Deisel needs killin'.
tmwelshy - 2006-01-06 2:21 PM Some folks just need killin'. |
| 2006-01-06 2:08 PM in reply to: #318252 |
Master 1462 Michigan | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? Rowdy - 2006-01-06 1:33 PM As a cop I would say no. I have seen too many officers lie to get a conviction. That there is probally the best reply I have heard. |
| 2006-01-06 2:10 PM in reply to: #318323 |
Master 1462 Michigan | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? run4yrlif - 2006-01-06 3:00 PM I truthfully wasn't being disengenuous, I merely meant that since most of us don't have a bunch of data in front of us, we base our opinions on anecdotal evidence...what's in our frame of consciousness. And I did word my question incorrectly. I didn't mean to ask how many guards are killed in isolated incedences compared to those killed in riots. Rather, I meant to ask "excluding riots, how many guards are killed" (because the dynamics of violence in a mob situation is not the same as in an individual situation." Poor wording on my part. But my point, though I may have made it badly, is that such incidences are rare. I didn't mean that they don't happen. And if they do happen, it's much more likely (anecdotally speaking) to happen from a member of the general prison population, rather than in the higher-security environment of death row. My point continues to be that those on death row should be kept in a similar security environment, DP or no DP. The thread is pointless, but only in that we've discussed this all before. The DP argument as a whole isn't (at least for those of us that don't support it).
ASA22 - 2006-01-06 2:16 PM I think you're being a little disengenuous regarding your point on "hearing" about a guard being killed, and I think it is being done to try to save your point rather than admitt an inaccuracy. An admission that in all honesty wouldn't even impact your point. What was the last high media coverage of a murdered prison/jail guard that you remember. Do you remmebr an incident that happened up around where you live about a year or so ago? Prisoner killed two guards, a judge and a court reporter in an Atlanta court house? Was that a "riot". The case down here garnered national news coverage and the three seperate trials will be on court TV. What was the last prison riot you can put your finger on in the US? I bet you remember more reports of individual guards being killed than prison riots. And just conceed on one point you may have been wrong. This is a pointless thread. I take offense to your comment that this thread is pointless. Are you the thread police??? I am sure some of the people who have responded don't live on this site and didn't reply to the old death penalty thread. If it bores you and all has been said don't reply to it. |
| 2006-01-06 2:15 PM in reply to: #318337 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? I only meant that it was pointless in the respect that ASA22 have had this exact same discussion before. I don't think it's pointless on balance, because I have strong beliefs on the subject and always welcome the opportunity to express my views.
smokeater1833 - 2006-01-06 3:10 PM I take offense to your comment that this thread is pointless. Are you the thread police??? I am sure some of the people who have responded don't live on this site and didn't reply to the old death penalty thread. If it bores you and all has been said don't reply to it. |
| 2006-01-06 2:19 PM in reply to: #318337 |
Expert 906 Olathe, KS | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? smokeater1833 - 2006-01-06 2:10 PM run4yrlif - 2006-01-06 3:00 PM I truthfully wasn't being disengenuous, I merely meant that since most of us don't have a bunch of data in front of us, we base our opinions on anecdotal evidence...what's in our frame of consciousness. And I did word my question incorrectly. I didn't mean to ask how many guards are killed in isolated incedences compared to those killed in riots. Rather, I meant to ask "excluding riots, how many guards are killed" (because the dynamics of violence in a mob situation is not the same as in an individual situation." Poor wording on my part. But my point, though I may have made it badly, is that such incidences are rare. I didn't mean that they don't happen. And if they do happen, it's much more likely (anecdotally speaking) to happen from a member of the general prison population, rather than in the higher-security environment of death row. My point continues to be that those on death row should be kept in a similar security environment, DP or no DP. The thread is pointless, but only in that we've discussed this all before. The DP argument as a whole isn't (at least for those of us that don't support it).
ASA22 - 2006-01-06 2:16 PM I think you're being a little disengenuous regarding your point on "hearing" about a guard being killed, and I think it is being done to try to save your point rather than admitt an inaccuracy. An admission that in all honesty wouldn't even impact your point. What was the last high media coverage of a murdered prison/jail guard that you remember. Do you remmebr an incident that happened up around where you live about a year or so ago? Prisoner killed two guards, a judge and a court reporter in an Atlanta court house? Was that a "riot". The case down here garnered national news coverage and the three seperate trials will be on court TV. What was the last prison riot you can put your finger on in the US? I bet you remember more reports of individual guards being killed than prison riots. And just conceed on one point you may have been wrong. This is a pointless thread. I take offense to your comment that this thread is pointless. Are you the thread police??? I am sure some of the people who have responded don't live on this site and didn't reply to the old death penalty thread. If it bores you and all has been said don't reply to it. I agree! New Subject: Jim is a Cup of Joe Elitist!!!!!!!! (threadhijack6ha.jpg) Attachments ---------------- threadhijack6ha.jpg (28KB - 8 downloads) |
| 2006-01-06 2:24 PM in reply to: #318348 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? What? No...I'm not. ASA22 said it...I just said the pointless thing was his and my repetitive arguments on the subject.
speedball - 2006-01-06 3:19 PM I agree! New Subject: Jim is a Cup of Joe Elitist!!!!!!!! |
| 2006-01-06 2:34 PM in reply to: #317573 |
| Pro 4040 | Subject: RE: Capital punishment??? I'll go out on a limb here and state categorically that any philosophical debate on this triathlon website is inherently pointless, unless you consider that its diversionary qualities provide a point. But pointless doesn't mean bad, or boring, it just means pointless. Having said that, in degrees of pointlessness, this thread ranks far above burritos and chipotle... or is that below? It is less pointless, therefore lower on the pointlessness scale. Now this particular post is extremely pointless (is extreme pointlessness similar to extreme uniqueness?) so I'd be better off stopping right now... |
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