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2006-01-27 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
hangloose - 2006-01-27 1:27 PM

Here's to hoping McCain runs in '08, and that he's all he seems to be.

 

You forgot to add "and that Karl Rove is not orchestrating the campaign of any of his opponents." 



2006-01-27 12:34 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
marmadaddy - 2006-01-27 9:33 AM [

You forgot to add "and that Karl Rove is not orchestrating the campaign of any of his opponents." 

I don't care who you are, that's funny! 



Edited by Flyboy 2006-01-27 12:35 PM
2006-01-27 12:50 PM
in reply to: #333173

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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
Thats funny. I was just reading an article comparing how FDR got us thru WWII with "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" vs. Rove's fearmongering strategy of "If you don't vote for us you're all gonna die!!"
2006-01-27 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
Flyboy - 2006-01-27 11:34 AM

marmadaddy - 2006-01-27 9:33 AM [

You forgot to add "and that Karl Rove is not orchestrating the campaign of any of his opponents." 

I don't care who you are, that's funny! 



I have to chime in-I think Karl Rove is the scariest man in Washington (perhaps after Dick Cheney). I am at the same time amazed and horrified of the media dance he has performed.
I'll shut up now and wait anxiously for 2008.
2006-01-27 1:48 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
the bear - 2006-01-27 1:05 PM

run4yrlif - 2006-01-25 5:56 AM

  • He left office with the strongest US economy ever.  If memory serves, the economy started trending down before he left office.
  • The US had it's lowest overall crime rate in the past 25 years.  Has the crime drastically increased under Bush?  And exactly how much effect did Clinton have on that?

Don't usually get involved in these political discussions, but did want to chime in on these two supposed accomplishments of Clinton. First, on the economy: Something that the uneducated don't realize is that public policy has a less than instantaneous effect on the economy. Clinton reaped the benefit of tax cuts and other economic reforms instituted by Reagan.  As previously stated here, the economy was on the decline when Clinton left office and it is more likely that Clinton's policies created the recession that W inherited.

Second, on the crime issue, the authors of Freakonomics make a strong case that the decline in crime is due more to legalization of abortion (20 years earlier) than any other public policy move.

Nice point Bear, Clinton did reap the benefits of some of Reagan's economic reforms. Many people conclude the countries economic prosperity and Clinton's time in the oval office were because of his economic policies. Wrong.

2006-01-27 2:10 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
run4yrlif - 2006-01-27 7:04 AM

Weren't they pretty rare before he took office? So I think that's more of a status quo thing.

Flyboy - 2006-01-27 11:00 AM Not a single terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11.



Let's not forget that our own home grown terrorist made his mark during Clinton's reign. Good 'ole Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people in Oklahoma City.

WTC bombing part deux happened in Bush's first year (9 months into office if memory serves) and one could argue that it was because of Clinton's failure to address the problem that Bush got saddled with it. I think 9/11 required more planning and training than Bush had time in office.

You know me not to be a Bush supporter, but Clinton put our chin out there and let everyone take a swing. These are just the domestic security issues. Don't get me started on his international failures.

Clinton and Bush are smarter than most people give them credit. The problem is that they are both politicians.



2006-01-27 2:54 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
Nice! Chucky's back! How's the manifesto coming?

I think it's fair to link terrorist attacks to political policy, but to say there would not have been a bombing in OKC or the WTC if Clinton had not been prez is purely a partisan dig. The muslim terrorists chief motivation is that they resent our support of Israel, which has remained unchanged no matter who is in the White House. They could care less who occupies it.

One of the tradeoffs of living in a free country is that we will always be somewhat vulnerable to these types of attacks.

Edited by drewb8 2006-01-27 2:55 PM
2006-01-27 3:12 PM
in reply to: #333414

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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things

ChuckyFinster - 2006-01-27 1:10 PM
run4yrlif - 2006-01-27 7:04 AM Clinton and Bush are smarter than most people give them credit. The problem is that they are both politicians.

I think that pretty much sums up the problem right there.  You've got a city with about 10 times as many politicians (mostly lawyers) as it needs and about a tenth as many people experienced in the various fields than you need.  Therefore you have a bunch of lawyers running around with too much time on their hands just looking for loopholes to frolick through.

bts

2006-01-27 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things

ChuckyFinster - 2006-01-27 3:10 PM. Clinton and Bush are smarter than most people give them credit. The problem is that they are both politicians.

And both of them, coincidentally, have used Karl Rove to direct electoral campaigns. 

Say what you want about Karl, he's probably the most brilliant marketing mind of his generation.

2006-01-27 4:37 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
blackbettybambalam - 2006-01-27 1:59 PM
Flyboy - 2006-01-27 11:34 AM
marmadaddy - 2006-01-27 9:33 AM [

You forgot to add "and that Karl Rove is not orchestrating the campaign of any of his opponents."

I don't care who you are, that's funny!

I have to chime in-I think Karl Rove is the scariest man in Washington (perhaps after Dick Cheney). I am at the same time amazed and horrified of the media dance he has performed. I'll shut up now and wait anxiously for 2008.

 

I'm with ya'll--I do media work for a living and Karl Rove scares me silly. He's very, very talented and I can only wish that my side had someone like him at the helm.

That said, Jim and various other people are going to fall over, b/c I am going to say something good about the Bush administration in terms of the environment. Let me be clear that he is usually depressingly consistent in both his legislative agenda and the massive policy and rule shift that he's promoting at the bureaucratic level, all to the benefit of industries of various descriptions and to the detriment of the public good and public health.

However, his administration continues to fund the BEACH Act, which is the Beaches Environmental Assessment and Coastal Health Act. It is what gives me employment and the money we receive every year in addition to our state funds allows us to test coastal water quality and issue public health warnings when WQ exceeds fecal contamination standards. I also get to do outreach with parents' groups, town and county managers and health departments.

This is a good thing and not just because it gives me a job.

 

Cannot BELIEVE I just typed that. I am a complicated woman, apparently.

2006-01-27 7:50 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
the bear - 2006-01-27 11:05 AM

Don't usually get involved in these political discussions, but did want to chime in on these two supposed accomplishments of Clinton. First, on the economy: Something that the uneducated don't realize is that public policy has a less than instantaneous effect on the economy. Clinton reaped the benefit of tax cuts and other economic reforms instituted by Reagan. As previously stated here, the economy was on the decline when Clinton left office and it is more likely that Clinton's policies created the recession that W inherited.


Preach on. You'd be surprised how many people say I'm donw right lieing and just believing "the right" when I tell them this. If Clinton had not cut back on Military spending so much, we also would not be having some of the problems there that we currently are.

Personally I think the fact that Bush managed to hold the country together through 9-11 then not just recover but take steps to deal with the problem speaks for itself. Sadam Hussein was a threat to National Security, so is Alqueda. WMD's or not, somebody needed to have the Cajones to go kick their You can give me all the "soldiers dieing for oil" stuff you want, but the fact is Iraq and Iran posed a severe threat to the well being of America (and the world for that matter) I'm glad someone finally went and delt with it instead of ignoring it until it went away.

As for tax cuts, any time you introduce increased money into the system, the economy increases. Even if just the rich get the cut, they buy more which creates greater demand for products produced by others. It's called trickle down, and it is a real phenomenon. Also, people seem to get the stigma that because someone has more money then them, that they don't deserve to keep it. So any tax break for them is highly undeserved. Stop comparing yourself to others, take the tax break and be happy.


2006-01-27 9:42 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
vortmax - 2006-01-27 7:50 PM
Preach on. You'd be surprised how many people say I'm donw right lieing and just believing "the right" when I tell them this. If Clinton had not cut back on Military spending so much, we also would not be having some of the problems there that we currently are.

Personally I think the fact that Bush managed to hold the country together through 9-11 then not just recover but take steps to deal with the problem speaks for itself. Sadam Hussein was a threat to National Security, so is Alqueda. WMD's or not, somebody needed to have the Cajones to go kick their You can give me all the "soldiers dieing for oil" stuff you want, but the fact is Iraq and Iran posed a severe threat to the well being of America (and the world for that matter) I'm glad someone finally went and delt with it instead of ignoring it until it went away.


hallelujah, someone gets it.
2006-01-28 2:56 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
run4yrlif - 2006-01-27 10:04 AM

Weren't they pretty rare before he took office? So I think that's more of a status quo thing.

Flyboy - 2006-01-27 11:00 AM Not a single terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11.




ahh NO. in clintons tenure (since u mentioned it) we had oklahoma (not forign but still terrorism), WTC (first time). in forign attacks, we had kobar towers (saudi) TWO embassies (kenya and tanzania [**technically** embassies ARE US SOIL.] and although these attacks were not IRAQ based Clinton bombed iraq in response..... and WHO hates bush?), USS Cole. i think WE are safer than we have ever been! i would beg the question, was 9/11 bush's or clintons falt? i would take the argument that clinton is MORE at fault.
2006-01-28 3:00 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
ghart2 - 2006-01-27 10:24 AM

Jim, I hate to fall into your Clinton trap here but I just have to.

run4yrlif - 2006-01-25 5:56 AM

  • He left office with the strongest US economy ever.  If memory serves, the economy started trending down before he left office.
  • He invested more in eduacation than any President in the past 30 years.  And???  I can invest in alot of things.  Tell me what came of it.
  • The US had it's lowest overall crime rate in the past 25 years.  Has the crime drastically increased under Bush?  And exactly how much effect did Clinton have on that?
  • He reformed welfare and saw millions of Americans go from welfare to work.  Last time I checked welfare is still a huge problem.  Did Bush do that in 5 years?
  • Increased access to helthcare.  Healthcare in this country is still a debacle and there are still millions with out it.  Is that Bush's fault?
  • He grew the economy while at the same time improved the environment.  I'll give you "the economy grew".  What exactly did he do that improved the environment?
  • He actually encouraged science and research.  So.
  • He made the government smaller by getting rid of 16000 pages of federal regulations and eliminating 375000 federal jobs (he created 21 million new private sector jobs).  Exactly how did HE create 21 million new private sector jobs.

I am not trying to say "Bush may be bad but so is yours."  My point is, I'm sure I could contact the the white house and the PR dept would give me just as impressive a list of things Bush has supposedly done while in office.  Personally, I think we give the POTUS a little too much credit when things in America are going well and a little too much blame in American when things aren't going so well.  There are many more factors at play that effect a Presidents legacy.

 



i loved clinton but SOOOOOOO MUCCHHHHHHH of people credit him with HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH!!! economy increase? that occured BC of the explotion of the internet CLINTON HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. we call it, natural phenominon. (like my crappy spelling). crime down turn (READ FREAKONMICS) that actually occured BC of abortion (READ FREAKONMICS). we was so circumstantial. i would say, WHAT DID CLINTON DO. not "how was it?"
2006-01-28 3:10 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
drewb8 - 2006-01-27 2:54 PM

but to say there would not have been a bombing in OKC or the WTC if Clinton had not been prez is purely a partisan dig.


but having been one of the few that read the 9/11 commision report (and any mother f%$ker that lived through 9/11 can suffer through it to understand) clinton HAD multiple times to "take the chance" to kill UBL.
2006-01-28 3:15 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
vortmax - 2006-01-27 7:50 PM

Even if just the rich get the cut


i did LOVe that uinder clinton when i was in the military he did the "BiG" payraise for the militay of which the OFFICERS got the biggest chunk. THANK YOU MY SUPER LIBERAL HELPING THE POOR LEADER!


2006-01-28 5:25 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things

This is a report sent to me from a friend at MIT.

<http://www.apta.com/research/info/online/documents/shapiro.pdf>Click here: http://www.apta.com/research/info/online/documents/shapiro.pdf

It makes the point that if Americans emulated Europeans in the percentage of trips taken by transit we would eliminate the need for Saudi Arabian oil imports.

 

And I imagine all the car enthusiasts will howl, but if we even edged in that direction and directed public funds to mass transit infrastructure without allowing transportation special interests to render it useless (sorry, we have a light rail system going in in the Triangle in NC that doesn't go to the airport and it ticks me off. Big money behind that decision), the situation would be less dire, b/c we'd have more options for our smaller demand.

Ok, time for caffeine.

2006-01-28 5:42 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things

Just curious why Runifyrchristian hasn't been here to Bush-bash (and tell Bush supporters how stupid they are) in over 24 hours? 

I thought he started these polls just to rant more.

Good points made (other than his). 

 



Edited by glf33 2006-01-28 5:45 AM
2006-01-28 6:43 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
Flyboy - 2006-01-27 10:34 AM
run4yrlif - 2006-01-27 7:04 AM

Weren't they pretty rare before he took office? So I think that's more of a status quo thing.

Sorry, but no. During the 1970's there were a total of 5 terrorist-linked attacks directly aimed at US citizens worldwide. During the 1980's there were a total of 32. The 1990's (He who cannot be mentioned administration!) that number jumped to 41. I wasn't able to find numbers for this decade so far, but after 9/11, and excluding Iran and Afganistan, since they're obvious war zones, there have been very few attacks focused soley at US citizens. If you'll notice where most of the attacks have been, they've been in Europe, on countries who were so anxious to "reason" with terrorist groups.

With all due respect, flyboy, I don't think it is consistent to exclude from this grim calculus the 2098 US soldiers killed in Iraq since 05/01/2003 (And, let us not forget the 15,800+ wounded, nor should we forget the 199 killed and 576 wounded in Afghanistan since 01/12/2003).  These men and women are victims of terrorism every bit as much as the sailors on the USS Cole or the Marines in Beirut.  The terrorists haven't attacked US citizens on US soil since 9/11 because we've given them 160,000 more convenient targets.

 

2006-01-28 7:52 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
Bush has increased  the amount of pre-tax dollars we are allowed to put into retirement funds.  If your over 50 it's almost double was it was in prior administrations.
2006-01-28 8:22 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
that transportation thing doesn't work either. Eurpoe is so small that mass transit can work. The US is way to large for effective mass transit. Look at the airlines already. It takes me 2 flights minimum to and 8 hours to get from here to Indiana. You also can't just say travel less, as a lot of the traveling done is for buissness


2006-01-28 8:32 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
Urban areas.
2006-01-28 9:03 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
even those. What do you consider an urban area? Just the city, the surrounding suburbs? Think about the logistics of it. Designing, building and maintaining a transit system that shuttle people from the suburbs to virtually any place in the city? It works well (kinda) for New York, Chicago and DC, but for a smaller Urban environment I really don't think it would be cost effective. So many people commute in from the surrounding suburbs, that it would be really hard to implement and have it profitable.
2006-01-28 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
vortmax - 2006-01-28 9:03 AM

even those. What do you consider an urban area? Just the city, the surrounding suburbs? Think about the logistics of it. Designing, building and maintaining a transit system that shuttle people from the suburbs to virtually any place in the city? It works well (kinda) for New York, Chicago and DC, but for a smaller Urban environment I really don't think it would be cost effective. So many people commute in from the surrounding suburbs, that it would be really hard to implement and have it profitable.


look at LA, to introduce a NEW transit system in an existing city. we have like 6 diffrent "metro" systems. and they aren't **THAT** popular. they do take some off the roads, but not so much that one could do without a car.
2006-01-28 7:31 PM
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Subject: RE: George W. Bush: The Good Things
tim_edwards - 2006-01-28 6:43 AM
Flyboy - 2006-01-27 10:34 AM
run4yrlif - 2006-01-27 7:04 AM

Weren't they pretty rare before he took office? So I think that's more of a status quo thing.

Sorry, but no. During the 1970's there were a total of 5 terrorist-linked attacks directly aimed at US citizens worldwide. During the 1980's there were a total of 32. The 1990's (He who cannot be mentioned administration!) that number jumped to 41. I wasn't able to find numbers for this decade so far, but after 9/11, and excluding Iran and Afganistan, since they're obvious war zones, there have been very few attacks focused soley at US citizens. If you'll notice where most of the attacks have been, they've been in Europe, on countries who were so anxious to "reason" with terrorist groups.

With all due respect, flyboy, I don't think it is consistent to exclude from this grim calculus the 2098 US soldiers killed in Iraq since 05/01/2003 (And, let us not forget the 15,800+ wounded, nor should we forget the 199 killed and 576 wounded in Afghanistan since 01/12/2003).  These men and women are victims of terrorism every bit as much as the sailors on the USS Cole or the Marines in Beirut.  The terrorists haven't attacked US citizens on US soil since 9/11 because we've given them 160,000 more convenient targets.

 

With all due respect Tim, you're just wrong. Servicemembers engaged in warfare (or contractors in a warzone for profit for that matter) are by virtue of their job are fair targets. Terrorist attacks are intended to have an effect on the masses (to TERRORIZE them) by killing a relative innocent few. They kill a few because they know that: A) They can and B) It will have an effect on our population as a whole. War is a completely different animal and it has been as long as there have been people and sticks & stones.  So has terrorism. But the fact that they co-exist doesn't make them the same thing. Sorry, but to say that their killing of our soldiers is terrorism is tantamount to calling our soliders terrorists as well. Some of my very good friends have given their lives in Iraq and Afganistan. Do I think it was worth it? Of course not. Would they who are dead, knowing that they would die there go anyway? Yeah they would. To say anyone knows why there haven't been more terrorist attacks is very presumptious. No one can know why. What matters though? No attacks. That's what matters. If there is another attack, does that mean all of this effort was for nothing? No. It means the fight isn't over. People don't understand that because they don't understand warfare. I promise you, if our country were invaded....we have terrorist sleeper cells from West Virginia to West Covina. It's the nature of war and terrorism to go together. It's a matter of who has the upper hand when you talk about who is a soldier and who is a terrorist.

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