Total Immersion swimming (Page 2)

I also agree that Total Immersion pretty much teaches 'normal swimming.' 

It's exactly what any good swim instructor would teach a new swim student - literally identical if they're doing it right. 

Raw beginners have tons of extra motions slowing them down, hugely overrely on a errant kick to keep their legs up (which wears them out in the water), and are constantly fighting the water. Swim coaches and TI teach them to NOT fight the water - first learn to relax in the water, rely on natural buoyancy to maintain good body position, and streamline as much as possible as so not to waste the limited propulsion you have in the water. 

At some point though, and it's far earlier on than what the Total Immersion books (and even coaches) recommend, you have to bite the bullet and accept that you will have to work HARD in the water to get out of the back of the pack. This means lots of intensity, lots of distance, and lots of time in the pool, and MOST importantly, not using 'I'm not going to my max effort because I'm trying to maintain correct technique' as an excuse to not hammer your swimming. Of course, you wouldn't have a raw 2:30/100yd swimmer doing this - they will be swimming easy and slow, and fixing their huge form errors first. But once you're pretty flat in the water, even if you're a 2:00-2:10ish swimmer, it's time to get going with the REAL secret of going fast in swimming - working hard in the water. 

The are no shortcuts. Total Immersion is not a shortcut (although the book does oversell itself as one, in my opinion.) Unless you are a naturally gifted swimmer, you will NOT be swimming sub 1:20/100 pace, or even a not-that-fast 1:30/100 pace without significant time and work in the water, much of it hard. Sorry, Terry, but your students will NOT be breaking AG world records by just swimming easy and reducing drag as the book implies.

I said it before, but "swim easy and go fast" is a myth. That only works once you've hammered tons of yards and intensity - and only THEN can you look like you swim effortless AND go fast. 

The real myth is that the TI methodology is only swimming easy.

Common swimming session structure for most coaches and methodologies is: warm up/drills - main set(s) - cool down.

The last session I did with Suzanne a few months ago was an all day coaching clinic, but the in pool sessions approximated what should be done with athletes.  It started with some technique work / drills (Just like most swim sessions by most coaches using any other methodology), moved on to identifying 1-3 areas for improvement for each person to focus on (unlike some sessions using other methodologies), spent some time learning those improvements (again, unlike some other methodologies), then proceeded to do a lung searing, arm and back ripping, "main set" (just like almost all methodologies), but with the additional instruction to pay extra attention to the 1-3 focal points established earlier in the session (unlike most other methodologies).

So, a common TI session is more likely to be something like: warm up/drills - identify improvement objectives for the session - begin ingraining improved movement patterns - main set - cool down.  The hard work is still there, but time specifically for identifying and learning improvements is added.

Yep....and as as been said here already....that makes TI just about like every other good swim program.  If you have a coach who is just walking up and down the deck yelling for you to work harder on your intervals you don't have a coach at all.  You STILL have to learn to swim, and TI does as good a job as any other program.

I have watched, over the last 5 years, the progression from decent youth swimmer, to regional qualifier, to sectional qualifier, to Jr. National qualifier, and this year 3 kids on to the Olympic trials. Pretty damn fascinating to watch the progression.  As stated, it took much hard work and many many yards......but I never watched a single practice that didn't have one of the coaches pulling this kid or that kid out of the water to work on a specific flaw in their stroke. I don't know how many underwater camera classes those kids have been to in order to see what they can improve on.  I've had many conversations with these level 5 USA swim coaches regarding hard work vs. technique.  They absolutely laugh out loud at the idea that you can have one without the other and expect your best results. 

The best comment I have heard yet from one of those coaches (he a former world record holder in the 200 fly)......."a good swim coach doesn't tell you what you are doing wrong, they simply tell you how to improve what you are doing".  In that regard, for almost any adult onset swimmer, TI is an improvement over what they are doing.....that ought to be plenty good enough for a triathlon swimmer.

Despite what you say about TI including hard swimming, that is absolutely NOT the take-home message from the book. It is probably the polar opposite of that.

Anyone who reads the TI book can attest to how much space is attributed to talking about the importance of hard training, increasing volume, and pushing your physical limits in the pool. VERY little. Like laughably little. That would be fine if TI said the book/method was strictly for new swimmers, but it clearly sells itself as a method that can be used even to the highest levels, and in fact makes almost every effort to NOT talk about how hard you have to work to get 'fast' in swimming. 

If Terry came straight out in TI and said something as simple and realistic as, "look - if you want to swim like a true FOP swimmer, you're going to have to do all this in this book as a starting step, but THEN your going to have to work hard in the water - harder than you can even imagine", I'd be cool with it. As is, I recall feeling quite deceived when I did everything step by step by TI, swam easy, but nope, none of the speed promised ever came. That's the real issue with TI as I mentioned before - the book oversells itself as a method to swim "fast", but even by lower triathlon swimming standards, a typical joe-average talent swimmer will NOT get fast or remotely so as a triathlon swimmer unless they commit to hammering it in the pool.

I don't give a rat's A what an outdated book seems to imply.  I have first hand experience with the TI methodology in the water with a TI Master Coach as recently as 3 months ago, and you read a book that was written several years ago about a subject that's evolved considerably since then.  I'm telling you how it works.  There's nothing in TI methodology that contradicts the concept that hard work and volume are necessary to achieve a high performance level.

Ummm, that "outdated book" is by FAR how most people learn the Total Immersion method.

VERY few of these same folks ever take a TI course with TI coaches. Like <1%, if not a lot less than that.

So if you're talking TI, you should be specifically addressing the book, not the classes/coaches.

I think it's a pretty poor sign as well that a certified TI coach can even describe the core book about the methodology as outdated, especially given that that very same book is still very much in print and in circulation. If even you, a TI coach, say it's outdated, I think that pretty much proves my point about the limitations of the methodology as taught in the book. 

Where did you ever get the idea that I'm a TI coach? I've never said any such thing. I've said I have experience with the methodologies.  I also have knowledge of other methodologies.  That's why I can speak to what it is, what it isnt, and its effectiveness. Apparently none of it matters, though, because you've said that the book is all that's relevant. 

Would love to here when Adventurebear recommends a swimmer start really committing to hard intensity, high-volume swim workouts. Not as a replacement to the technqiue work, but as a central piece of the workout strategy.

Now we're getting to worthwhile conversation that can help people!

Not to answer for Suzanne, but speaking for myself...As LeftBrain alluded to above, the idea that swimming technique and fitness are two different things where an athlete only works one or the other is a completely false paradigm.  Fast swimming isn't the result of working on technique and fitness.  It's the result of training technique-fitness.  They're really one thing, not two different things.  That means that volume and intensity appropriate for the athlete's technique-fitness level should be part of their program from day one.  It's a continuum of progression, not a binary decision.

I'm still waiting to hear from any TI coach as to when and where hard swimming should occur in the TI regimen. To date, I've heard a lot of sidestepping this issue the moment it comes up, but no definite answers from TI coaches as to when they would recommend someone start working hard in the water.

z

Suzanne did an online program a couple of years ago on the TI Academy site called Fast Forward which was designed to prep for an Oly or HIM.  I followed it to prep for St. Anthony's last year and swam at a 1:42 pace, coming out of the water second in my AG  (M60-64)   There were a lot of challenging workouts, that were as "hard" as you wanted to make them.  As Don and Suzanne have mentioned, don't judge TI just by the (outdated) book. The thing that really resonated with me was Suzanne's analytical approach to training, having you always think about what you were doing and having specific goals for each workout as opposed to just logging mindless laps.

I subsequently had the unique opportunity to have Sheila Taormina coach my masters team for eight months last year, and as I've shared before, a lot of their initially diverse training philosophies and techniques (drag reduction v maximizing propulsion) tend to converge as you go faster.

Mark 

It actually would be very helpful and much more clarifying/edifying here if you actually posted a link or a sample of your 'entire training blocks outlines; on these forums' as you claim above, so someone could see how and where you are actually recommending power/endurance/propulsive training in the schedule as balanced with drag reduction. 

At this point it's obvious that you had your mind made up before this conversation began, and any amount of factual information provided to you is wasted typing, because you just respond by doubling down on your misinformed beliefs.

You can continue to judge. I'm not making any accusations.  

I'm just asking for legitimate information regarding where a TI coach places intensity/volume in the context of the drag-reduction-centric philosophy.

I'm also not just asking to be difficult - despite what AdventureBear says, I have yet to see a single of her posts include recommendations of swimming harder and working on propulsion as compared to only recommending drag-reduction, despite seeing quite a number of the posts over the years. 

I also do believe she has her athletes swim hard - they're clearly going to have to, in order win AG podiums, but I (and I'm sure others) would like to see where it fits in, given that she pretty much never recommends it on these forums, ever.

My 'misinformed beliefs' are also the core of every competitive swimming group in the world - none of which predominantly swim easy, and almost all of which emphasize volume and intensity. (Hence competitive swimming's well-deserved reputation for double-day workouts and requiring huge commitment.)

Age group podiums? Now you're intentionally misrepresenting Suzanne's coaching achievements.  Try women's national and world championship wins in triathlon and duathlon and world record marathon swims.  The lady obviously knows her stuff, yet you continue to question the advice instead of listening to what's being said. Both she and I have said volume and intensity are utilized throughout every successful program, yet you're stubbornly clinging to this incorrect notion that the TI methodology primarily focuses on easy efforts.  It's NOT a black and white, either / or proposition.  ALL successful programs contain a blended focus on a combination of technique, hard work, and volume. It is ridiculous to imply that Suzanne's methodology hasn't resulted in a great deal of success for her athletes. I'm proud and grateful for the opportunity to continue learning from a coach with her knowledge and experience. 

You're implying incorrectly that I think her athletes don't get great results. They clearly do.

What I AM asking though, is for where she thinks those hard efforts fall into a TI-based swim program.

I don't know how I can be any more clear than this. It's not a hard question, and it's not so athlete specific that one can't provide samples of such regimens, especially given she clearly has them on hand. 

Her doing so would put to rest not just mine, but a LOT of the criticism of TI as the 'swim-easy go-fast' philosophy that is 100% the core of the original book, and probably how 99% of swimmer/triathletes who learn TI-based swimming, come to know it. (VERY few of them go to a clinic.)

Ok...

A brand new beginner AOS sessions may only include 6 or 10 x 25 fast.  Just enough to get a feel for what going faster feels like and have some fun. Going fast is fun!

That same person would see gradual increases in the length, quantity, and variety of hard intervals over weeks and months as their competency and overall fitness improved .  50s to 75s to 100s, etc. As well as total hard yardage increasing.  

Along the way, different sessions would have different objectives and different technique focal points...speed, anaerobic endurance,  endurance, strength, vo2 max, wide catch, tight kick staying in the body's shadow, streamlining off the walls, etc.

Generally,  after a few months, they're doing a couple thousand yards of hard swimming per session. Just like every other successful methodology. 

I vaguely remember that discussion.  Hopefully Suzanne will be able to offer clarification.  I've only been working with her about 4 1/2 years. My understanding is that it's a combination of the two. TI has continued to evolve (keeping with it's kaizen approach to swimming,  they've done the same with their philosophy and coaching methodology, making the book outdated).  Suzanne,  as a coach working with more competitive athletes as opposed to the AOS who just wants to learn to swim better for general health and enjoyment, is more inclined to use volume and intensity sooner and in greater quantities than some other TI coaches who work more with health and pleasure swimmers.