aerobic base questions

Coach

10487

Boston, MA

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

drchaya - 2007-12-10 8:35 PM

If I go by the Borg scale at the bottom of that link, then I was a 2 MAYBE a 3....and except for muscle glycogen storage increase it looks like there is more gain at Borg 4....which would more like zone 3.....which would be much more appealing to me.....

Your no. 1 goal as a newbie should be to just run more. if you currently run 3x a week for a total of 1 to 2 hrs total, you should work to run 4-5x a week and increase the total volume to 2.5-3.5 hrs a week. To achieve that you have to run at the intensity that will allow you complete all sessions and be consistent in 5 out of 6 weeks for instance. Even though don't consider Z3 in the speed work zone, it is more demanding than Z1 and Z2 and too much of it might be too stressful in your legs which might not be used to the pounding and it will either cause you to skip sessions (inconsistency) or worst cause injuries.

If you are focusing on sprints right now IMO you are ok having a mix in your running between Z1 to Z3 but as long as 75-80% of your total volume is on the easy side for at least 4-6 weeks to allow your body get use to it. later as you get fitter, you can maybe do a bit more of it but you won’t know until then. It is better to be conservative and make gains steady than too aggressive and see your gains cut short due to injuries or extended recoveries.

But all this should be irrelevant because you have a coach and regardless whether you enjoy it or not you should follow the plan. That is if you trust him/her and believe in the advise provided. you should always ask him/her for the reasoning behind the sessions so you know the why of the madness behind the approach...

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Expert

1187

Ontario

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

amiine - 2007-12-10 10:37 PM

you keep similar cadence at every intensity; Z1 to Z5 although not many around here should worry much about Z5. optimal cadence will vary 80-95 so it is ok if your cadence is a bit low when running easy/steady and a bit higher when running tempo or LT. what changes is the frequency and stride lenght

What is the difference between cadence and frequency?

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Melon Presser

52116

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

drchaya - 2007-12-10 8:03 PM

Suzanne (and anyone else who knows) - did a bunch of athletes really let people muscle biopsy them to get this data??? It seems counterintuitive that slow running would cause faster gains than interval work.....

Different bunches of athletes a few hundred times--muscle biopsy has been frequently used in sports medicine and research for a long time.

Slow running causes greater gains in fastness over time ... not necessarily faster gains. The changes Suzanne described predominantly take place in response to Z1/Z2 (per Friel, thanks Suzanne!) training. But it is these very changes that allow you to run faster for longer periods of time.

If you're wanting to run faster for shorter periods of time, it's a different ballgame. But when your goal races are going to take (just for example) half an hour or longer, it's an endurance event, and it's going to take aerobic fitness to do that at a faster pace that can be sustained.

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Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

Zone 3 training also induces the changes I listed, and is very close to the "Sweet Spot" recommeneded by the power guys...the most gain in limited time in terms of endurance work.

The difference is that you can't sustain it as long if you do higher intensities. Higher intensities engage more fast twitch fibers and they begin to take on characteristics that slow twitch fibers have (more mitichondria, more oxidative enzymes. but they retain their "twitch" speed).

But for maximum performance, you need to maximize fast & slow twitch fibers performance. If you have the time to do 2-3 hours or longer in the lower zones, you will build up the ability of your slow twitch fibers preferentially to the fast twitch fibers. If you don't have the time, then you are not able to maxmize slow twitch fiber development since you can't sustain the activity as long at a higher intensity.

So yes, you get improvements that are similar, but they are not identical. Both higher intensity and lower intensity activities can improve endurance, but in slightly different ways. Planning a season to integrate training at various levels at the right time in the right blend for 3 different sports is the "Art of Coaching"

There are some studies from McMasters university that involves muscle biopsies and enzyme staining that looked at a 2 week protocol of 3 days per week of 30 second sprint intervals with 5 minutes rest, starting with 3-4 intervals on day noe, and increasing to 7-8 intervals on teh last day. Compared ot the control group which did no sprint training, the sprint group nearly "doubled their endurance" while the control group had little change.

The test group was able to pedal nearly twice as long at 80% VO2 Peak. Note that this study did not test performance in terms of improvement in speed, only time to fatigue. This group at McMasters has done anumber of similar studies that are very interesting. That study was done on the heels of other studies over longer time frames studying sprint protocols for endurance performance. It's really fascinating work if you look up the entire series.

But, the problem with it is that 30 second sprint intervals are painful, and a diet of 30 second intervals 3-8 times per workout 3 times a week is really no fun, requires mega motivation and can't be sustained for long before burnout and boredome ensue. Since it only took 2 weeks for these sprint workouts ot make a difference, it makes sense to do lower intensity work the majority of the time and save the higher intensity work for the 2 weeks prior to your event or the taper for your event.

a 3 hour endurance ride and 30 second sprint intervals are pretty much at opposite ends of the intensity spectrum, but intensity efforts inbetween the two have intermediate results as well. The idea is to match your goals with your time and your current fitness in such a way that you can sustain consistent training and be motivated when you don't feel like working out.

Heres a link for starters.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/98/6/1985

THis has strayed from "aerobic base questions", but it just goes to show you that in theory, you can train anyway you like, and if you are appying overload stress to your system, you will improve (as long as you don't get hurt). There is a lot of experience that has gone into the traditional recommendations of "winter base building"...it simply works. that doesn't mean that there are not other methods that work just as well, or better, but as a first or second year endurance athlete, you can't go wrong dong aerobic base work.

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Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

I also think its possible to get way too caught up in numbers, zones, LT, VO2, etc, etc.

drchaya, you have done a lot of testing that most people on BT havn't had done, but it's clear that it hasn't helped you figure out how hard or easy to go on your workouts.

I'm not being critical, im just pointing out that even with all the testing, it's still easy to get confused.

As I've said many times before, the "talk test" works pretty darn well in terms of helping to determine a base building intensity. and it should, as your breathing rate is affected by the amount of CO2 you are producing which increases as intensity increases. If you exercise up to teh point where you just start to breathe hard, then back off a bit and can still carry on conversation, that's probably where you shoudl be and will probably fall into your Zone 2/3 area, your MAF area, your Lactate Balance Point area, or your sweet spot if training by power.

Get to know your body well and the numbers willmake more sense.

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Runner

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

bikeboyaug - 2007-12-10 10:28 PM

Can someone explain where running mechanics comes into play here? I'm having difficulty seeing how one can maintain a high/optimum cadence (90 footstrikes per min.) at such low intensity running.

Who said 90 is an "optimum" running cadence? Daniels made an observation that the AVERAGE cadence of elite runners was 90. That, by no means, says that 90 is optimum for everyone. Your specific cadence is based on numerous factors, and is an individualized thing. The majority of people already run within 10% of this magic number.

As to your specific question, as Jorge mentioned, your cadence will change with your pace to some greater or lesser extent. The bigger determinant of speed is stride length, and force applied to the ground.

If you're looking for specific ways to train your stride, go run hills. Running up steep short uphills will work on your stride length. Running gentle downhills will train your cadence.

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Coach

10487

Boston, MA

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

cathyd - 2007-12-10 9:51 PM

amiine - 2007-12-10 10:37 PM

you keep similar cadence at every intensity; Z1 to Z5 although not many around here should worry much about Z5. optimal cadence will vary 80-95 so it is ok if your cadence is a bit low when running easy/steady and a bit higher when running tempo or LT. what changes is the frequency and stride lenght

What is the difference between cadence and frequency?

my bad I meant cadence; IOW what changes is the cadence and the stride lenght

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Champion

6046

New York, NY

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

AdventureBear - 2007-12-11 1:02 AM I also think its possible to get way too caught up in numbers, zones, LT, VO2, etc, etc. drchaya, you have done a lot of testing that most people on BT havn't had done, but it's clear that it hasn't helped you figure out how hard or easy to go on your workouts. I'm not being critical, im just pointing out that even with all the testing, it's still easy to get confused. As I've said many times before, the "talk test" works pretty darn well in terms of helping to determine a base building intensity. and it should, as your breathing rate is affected by the amount of CO2 you are producing which increases as intensity increases. If you exercise up to teh point where you just start to breathe hard, then back off a bit and can still carry on conversation, that's probably where you shoudl be and will probably fall into your Zone 2/3 area, your MAF area, your Lactate Balance Point area, or your sweet spot if training by power. Get to know your body well and the numbers willmake more sense.

ahh see that's the thing - by talk test my HR would be MUCH higher....my trainer (who has known me the longest) thinks I am just some sort of genetic freak and that none of this makes sense for me....he and my one-week-hired coach are going to chat....and I do trust him and he is a physiologist, so my doing round 2 of testing is partly my idea but if I am going to try to do zone 2 runs I want to know what my zone 2 is! And my asking here does not mean I do not trust my coach - just found you all first and value opinions of others - particularly in cases where the data is either animal based, or short term.....in the end I am an n of one too (like Fred)

from everything written what makes the most sense is the wear and tear thing....I did run longer timewise even if distance was about the same - not sure if that is relevant or matters....calorically distance matters not time....but if my muscles will do more to longer ok.....

I do appreciate all the input!!!

thanks

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Runner

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

drchaya - 2007-12-11 10:35 AM

ahh see that's the thing - by talk test my HR would be MUCH higher

My question becomes: So? Run at a higher HR. The problem I see here is too great a reliance on numbers that can have different meanings depending on who is asked, and not enough relation to what the body is saying. It has nothing to do with being a genetic freak. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that more people are similar to you than we think.

The issue here is that people like quantifiable measurements, rather than qualitative ones. It's much easier to prescribe training for the masses based on rules and numbers. The 10% rule is a prime example of this. It's a rule of thumb that gets thrown out there like it's Gospel. It's not. I've known people who violate it constantly, with no repercussions. I also know people who can't even do 10% without risking injury.

I think that like Suzanne said, people get so wrapped up in a specific formula for success that they miss other opportunities.

If I were your coach, I'd tell you to go run at a pace that makes you pleasantly tired at the end, but you feel that you could keep going. Run at a pace that feels comfortable today.

Edited by Scout7 2007-12-11 10:17 AM

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Coach

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

drchaya - 2007-12-11 8:35 AM

AdventureBear - 2007-12-11 1:02 AM I also think its possible to get way too caught up in numbers, zones, LT, VO2, etc, etc. drchaya, you have done a lot of testing that most people on BT havn't had done, but it's clear that it hasn't helped you figure out how hard or easy to go on your workouts. I'm not being critical, im just pointing out that even with all the testing, it's still easy to get confused. As I've said many times before, the "talk test" works pretty darn well in terms of helping to determine a base building intensity. and it should, as your breathing rate is affected by the amount of CO2 you are producing which increases as intensity increases. If you exercise up to teh point where you just start to breathe hard, then back off a bit and can still carry on conversation, that's probably where you shoudl be and will probably fall into your Zone 2/3 area, your MAF area, your Lactate Balance Point area, or your sweet spot if training by power. Get to know your body well and the numbers willmake more sense.

ahh see that's the thing - by talk test my HR would be MUCH higher....my trainer (who has known me the longest) thinks I am just some sort of genetic freak and that none of this makes sense for me....he and my one-week-hired coach are going to chat....and I do trust him and he is a physiologist, so my doing round 2 of testing is partly my idea but if I am going to try to do zone 2 runs I want to know what my zone 2 is! And my asking here does not mean I do not trust my coach - just found you all first and value opinions of others - particularly in cases where the data is either animal based, or short term.....in the end I am an n of one too (like Fred)

from everything written what makes the most sense is the wear and tear thing....I did run longer timewise even if distance was about the same - not sure if that is relevant or matters....calorically distance matters not time....but if my muscles will do more to longer ok.....

I do appreciate all the input!!!

thanks

Has your coach given you Zone 2 numbers? Are are you gettting them by putting your LT into the equations here? By the testing data that you gave us earlier, he is using different definitions for "Lactate Threshold", and if you plug that number into the Friel HR zones (which are here on BT too), your zones will not be the same as Friel's recommended zones. The use of 4mMol of lactate as a determination of your lactate threshold is accepted by SOME physiologists (I'm not sure who), but it is by no means based on physiology.

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Coach

10487

Boston, MA

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

Scout7 - 2007-12-11 10:16 AM If I were your coach, I'd tell you to go run at a pace that makes you pleasantly tired at the end, but you feel that you could keep going. Run at a pace that feels comfortable today.

x2. plain and simple

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Cycling Guru

15134

Fulton, MD

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

amiine - 2007-12-11 11:55 AM

Scout7 - 2007-12-11 10:16 AM If I were your coach, I'd tell you to go run at a pace that makes you pleasantly tired at the end, but you feel that you could keep going. Run at a pace that feels comfortable today.

x2. plain and simple

How untriathlete-like of you!! Give me back your tri card! Don't you know that you must data log and calculate every single thing out there??? That is the only way to get faster!

I thought about going out for a ride and pushing my pace a little to have some fun, but I didn't want to risk ruining the possibility of placing in the Tuesday night Cat. 5 training crit!!

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Regular

545

Subject: RE: aerobic base questions

How untriathlete-like of you!! Give me back your tri card! Don't you know that you must data log and calculate every single thing out there??? That is the only way to get faster!

I thought about going out for a ride and pushing my pace a little to have some fun, but I didn't want to risk ruining the possibility of placing in the Tuesday night Cat. 5 training crit!!

Seriously!! Basically if I don't have analyzed HR data, GPS mapped course, power/watts etc. I can't even be sure that I went out running.

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aerobic base questions (Page 2)

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