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2010-04-21 7:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
GRB1 - 2010-04-21 7:34 PM

IdealMuse - 2010-04-21 7:11 PM This gearing talk is timely as I'm trying to figure this out for my bike as well, but I'm still very overwhelmed and only just starting to understand gearing. My training group coach says 12-25 is good for IMOO but I read a lot of people go with a 12-27. Some suggest at 27 is *NEEDED* Campy doesn't seem to have that gear ratio or at least the guy at the bike store said my available option would be 13-27. I don't want to lose too much of the top end of my speed range either though... I have fairly strong legs, but I am also carrying some extra body weight (181 currently) I apparently have I think a 11-23? Don't want to invest too much more in this bike so I don't think a compact crank is really and option right now. Any words of wisdom? (It's a Campy Veloche 10 speed standard crank) Please make my head stop spinning.


I would imagine you have a standard crank with a 53/39 or potentially a 52/39.  I am doing IMOO as well and to be honest I wouldn't be comfortable with a 11-23.  There are a few pretty good hills in the event and even though you have strong legs, you don't want to stress them due to a lack of gear options.  It really depends on your comfort level. 

I would imagine that being in Chicago there is a good chance you will make a trip to Madison and ride the course prior to the event.  If so that would give you an idea of how your bike set up will work for IMOO.  You might not need to change anything depending on your ability.  However keep in mind you are going to need some legs for the run.

Greg


I'm definately swapping out the 11-23 for at least a 12-25 but really I guess the question is 12-25 enough? Coach said she didn't think going to a 27 was necessary.... but she's a tiny little thing. I guess the question I have is if Campy's only option is 13-27... Is the 13 going to give me enough power for the downhill/flats?

Will be going up to Madison at least once w/ my group and likely a few times (Going to try and goto a few of the VQ sponsored rides) I don't really have the money to keep switching out cassettes. Right now my bike is at the store getting matience and a new front chain-ring as it was worn down... apparently I was crossing the chain over when I began riding before I knew better.



2010-04-21 7:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
WittyCityGirl - 2010-04-21 3:48 PM Thanks for the gearing post (that I got to read during work because the boss FINALLY got out of the office during a work day <- boss at the office puts a damper on my BT time).

Question that I just posted on the IMLP thread:

Would someone look like a wuss for posting a 15mph average on the bike of an Ironman if it meant not totally bonking on the run?

I think in my head that this is a question similar to "is it okay to walk during a road race"... I think I need to look at last year's splits!


I don't think there is a wuss in an Ironman.  Race your race and don't worry what others are doing.  15 MPH for 112 miles is an accomplishment in and of itself.  Do what you need to do to meet your goal of finishing your IM.
2010-04-21 7:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
IdealMuse - 2010-04-21 7:43 PM
GRB1 - 2010-04-21 7:34 PM
IdealMuse - 2010-04-21 7:11 PM This gearing talk is timely as I'm trying to figure this out for my bike as well, but I'm still very overwhelmed and only just starting to understand gearing. My training group coach says 12-25 is good for IMOO but I read a lot of people go with a 12-27. Some suggest at 27 is *NEEDED* Campy doesn't seem to have that gear ratio or at least the guy at the bike store said my available option would be 13-27. I don't want to lose too much of the top end of my speed range either though... I have fairly strong legs, but I am also carrying some extra body weight (181 currently) I apparently have I think a 11-23? Don't want to invest too much more in this bike so I don't think a compact crank is really and option right now. Any words of wisdom? (It's a Campy Veloche 10 speed standard crank) Please make my head stop spinning.


I would imagine you have a standard crank with a 53/39 or potentially a 52/39.  I am doing IMOO as well and to be honest I wouldn't be comfortable with a 11-23.  There are a few pretty good hills in the event and even though you have strong legs, you don't want to stress them due to a lack of gear options.  It really depends on your comfort level. 

I would imagine that being in Chicago there is a good chance you will make a trip to Madison and ride the course prior to the event.  If so that would give you an idea of how your bike set up will work for IMOO.  You might not need to change anything depending on your ability.  However keep in mind you are going to need some legs for the run.

Greg
I'm definately swapping out the 11-23 for at least a 12-25 but really I guess the question is 12-25 enough? Coach said she didn't think going to a 27 was necessary.... but she's a tiny little thing. I guess the question I have is if Campy's only option is 13-27... Is the 13 going to give me enough power for the downhill/flats? Will be going up to Madison at least once w/ my group and likely a few times (Going to try and goto a few of the VQ sponsored rides) I don't really have the money to keep switching out cassettes. Right now my bike is at the store getting matience and a new front chain-ring as it was worn down... apparently I was crossing the chain over when I began riding before I knew better.


If you are pushing a 53 -13 ratio you are going to be going high 20's to low 30's MPH range.  Is that enough gear for you?

Edited by GRB1 2010-04-21 7:48 PM
2010-04-21 7:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
WittyCityGirl - 2010-04-21 2:48 PM Thanks for the gearing post (that I got to read during work because the boss FINALLY got out of the office during a work day <- boss at the office puts a damper on my BT time).

Question that I just posted on the IMLP thread:

Would someone look like a wuss for posting a 15mph average on the bike of an Ironman if it meant not totally bonking on the run?

I think in my head that this is a question similar to "is it okay to walk during a road race"... I think I need to look at last year's splits!


A wuss.. heck no!!!!  You are doing an Ironman. It takes a huge amount of guts to sign up and train for an event like that.  I can't  imagine  ever taking on such a feat.

Edited by Kath2163 2010-04-21 7:48 PM
2010-04-21 8:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
GRB1 - 2010-04-21 7:47 PM


If you are pushing a 53 -13 ratio you are going to be going high 20's to low 30's MPH range.  Is that enough gear for you?


Oh no no I need to go 50.

Yeah high20s/30s is probably where my comfort zone ends as far as feeling like I have control of the bike. Especially since there really aren't very many at all long descents there.

Thanks.
2010-04-21 8:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
IdealMuse - 2010-04-21 7:07 PM
GRB1 - 2010-04-21 7:47 PM


If you are pushing a 53 -13 ratio you are going to be going high 20's to low 30's MPH range.  Is that enough gear for you?
Oh no no I need to go 50. Yeah high20s/30s is probably where my comfort zone ends as far as feeling like I have control of the bike. Especially since there really aren't very many at all long descents there. Thanks.



53:13 on 700x23 at 90rpm puts you at 28.7mph.

Push that cadence a little higher... like 100rpm and you're going 31.9mph

if you could do 53:11 at 90rpm you're at 33.9mph and at 100rpm you're at 37.7mph.


2010-04-21 8:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Kath2163 - 2010-04-21 4:57 PM Hello All,
I went to bike fit assessment today and this is what I learned.  Apparently Specialized and Look are the two brands of tri bikes that would fit me best. Cervelo, Orbea and Felt would be a little long.
They had a Look bike for me to try. It had sram components which I didn't like. They make a lot of noise.  The Look bike is very light but stiffer then the Specialized. While I liked the idea of a blue and white bike (Look) the more I look at the picture I am not so sure I like it. At the same time, the cable that hangs near the crank is a bit strange and distracting.  I think I am just over loaded.  Here is a link to the Look bike/specs

http://www.lookcycle.com/en/us/triathlon/velos/576-velo-us.html

And the link to the Specialized

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45896&eid=4338&menuItemId=12186

The price difference is minimal.

If anyone has any thoughts I would like to hear them. Again, these two are the best fit based off of today's assessments.

I hope everyone had a good day!



Personally, I love the Transitions, if I were to get a bike tommorrow that would be it...however feel and fit trump everything.
 
2010-04-21 9:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Took the night off, spent half of it making my new avatar; I don't look as fast as Dylan or Fred, but pretty fast nonetheless. 

Figured I don't need to risk getting sick, any illness at this point would cause problems. 
2010-04-21 10:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Kath2163 - 2010-04-21 5:57 PM Hello All,
I went to bike fit assessment today and this is what I learned.  Apparently Specialized and Look are the two brands of tri bikes that would fit me best. Cervelo, Orbea and Felt would be a little long.
They had a Look bike for me to try. It had sram components which I didn't like. They make a lot of noise.  The Look bike is very light but stiffer then the Specialized. While I liked the idea of a blue and white bike (Look) the more I look at the picture I am not so sure I like it. At the same time, the cable that hangs near the crank is a bit strange and distracting.  I think I am just over loaded.  Here is a link to the Look bike/specs

http://www.lookcycle.com/en/us/triathlon/velos/576-velo-us.html

And the link to the Specialized

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45896&eid=4338&menuItemId=12186

The price difference is minimal.

If anyone has any thoughts I would like to hear them. Again, these two are the best fit based off of today's assessments.

I hope everyone had a good day!


That transition is sexy. I love that bike. I have a Specialized Allez Elite that I just bought from a friend. He had let me borrow it for my 1st tri in March and then he decided to sell it to me. I got it for $500 which I thought was a great price.

Get the transition!!!!!!!!!!!
2010-04-22 6:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

Good conversations on biking!  But still, there is no substiture for quality seat time!!

But, I would always want to error on the side of caution when it comes to gearing.  Chances are on any downhill where an 11 would make a difference over a 12, I would be giving the legs a break and not pushing it anyways.  I'm sure any race that has any hills, the 27 over the 23 would be a huge benefit on the run.

Short run yesterday was all I had time for, rest day today.  More meetings this morning and driving home this afternoon.  So, back on schedule this weekend.

I have a half marathon Sunday that I am looking forward to, but it is a train through race so I will still do a long bike Saturday (still hoping for a PR as it is only my 3rd HM).  Anyone else racing this weekend?

2010-04-22 7:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
calimavs - 2010-04-21 2:22 PM No rest day for me, I have track tonight. I'm going to try to take it easy and NOT hurt myself, I ran too hard last week which lead to a really sore calf for the rest of the week. I need to remember that I'm a slower runner than most of the people on my team and not try to keep up with them.


Just my opinion (actually, a lot of people would agree)... but I'm very leery of track workouts with a long-course triathlon goal.  You didn't describe the workout so I won't automatically dismiss it as having more cost than benefit for your goals, but in general a VO2max workout will not benefit you as much on race day as a tempo workout, and a tempo workout will not benefit you as much as an endurance workout. 

That's not to say I'm not a huge believer in running a variety of paces (I am)... but a weekly track workout is just asking for an injury (you're already feeling something wrong) and probably doesn't benefit your marathon times much at all.

It's a lot of reading, but this series of articles really explains the appropriate proportion of endurance/recovery/speedwork well imho.  The conclusion to those articles is that if I want to be faster on race day (if my A race is an ironman), then my speedwork should be a short weekly tempo run and that's it... and that because I'll need so little recovery time since I'm never trashing my legs really, I should compensate by running MORE not faster.

Edited by JoshKaptur 2010-04-22 7:37 AM


2010-04-22 7:48 AM
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2010-04-22 7:52 AM
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2010-04-22 8:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Whoaaaaaa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa.

What does the number of teeth have to do with going downhill??????

All I know is I have triple on my bike and I'm so ever-freaking-loving that triple and whatever it entails!

Last year I was in PA and was cycling up Elk Mtn (Fred might know Elk Mtn?) and I was able to put her in granny gears and make it up.  Hubby just had a double and had to walk it. 

Never thought about gearing and going downhill... but I did complain at the LBS that when I went down hill I NEVER had anything to pedal against, I'd just spin and get no speed even though I felt like I should have.  Are you guys saying there's a way to be able to pedal going down hill and get some speed out of it?  And, if so, are you saying that you either get speed going downhill OR you can have extra granny gears for getting up hill???
2010-04-22 8:46 AM
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2010-04-22 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-04-22 9:46 AM Extra teeth downhill means that that you have enough 'hard' gears to allow you to peddle downhill without spinning out. This is the balance we are talking about. Sometimes to allow enough of the 'granny' gears you have to sacrifice a few of the 'hard to peddle' gears and vice versa. On a flat course it is usually good strategy to sacrifice some granny gears for hard gears. At LP or IMSG sacrificing a few hard gears to allow for a few more easy to peddle gears makes better strategy.


I can easily spin out my compact on steep downhills... but that means I'm going 30+mph.  In a race situation, I'd just assume get in a tuck and let gravity do the work at that point... vs. beat my legs up to get it to 35 mph by having extra gears and pedaling hard on the downhill.  In my 56 mile ride the other day, I spun out on downhills for a total of approximately 2-3 minutes... and that was on a decently hilly ride.  I spent much more time than that in my easy gears, and was glad I had them.

In other words, I agree with Fred - much rather have the easier gears than the harder gears.


2010-04-22 10:23 AM
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2010-04-22 10:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
furiousferret - 2010-04-21 10:17 PM Took the night off, spent half of it making my new avatar; I don't look as fast as Dylan or Fred, but pretty fast nonetheless. 

Figured I don't need to risk getting sick, any illness at this point would cause problems. 


haha thanks. Is that a 2XU top?
2010-04-22 10:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-04-22 8:52 AM Josh I agree with you in general that track workouts are not usually necessary for an Ironman triathlete. The expression is "trackwork is the icing on the cake, and most of us don't even have cake yet"

Fred i like that quote a lot
Yeah i know for me last year while training for my 70.3's and a marathon i did a weekly track workout with a training partner who did short course tri. Not only did i not feel that it helped me as much as i would like...but it caused a lot of injuries for me. I cut that out and i miraculously got better. It could also be that i pushed too hard too soon (i am really good at making that mistake).
2010-04-22 10:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-04-21 8:28 PM
IdealMuse - 2010-04-21 8:11 PM This gearing talk is timely as I'm trying to figure this out for my bike as well, but I'm still very overwhelmed and only just starting to understand gearing. My training group coach says 12-25 is good for IMOO but I read a lot of people go with a 12-27. Some suggest at 27 is *NEEDED* Campy doesn't seem to have that gear ratio or at least the guy at the bike store said my available option would be 13-27. I don't want to lose too much of the top end of my speed range either though... I have fairly strong legs, but I am also carrying some extra body weight (181 currently) I apparently have I think a 11-23? Don't want to invest too much more in this bike so I don't think a compact crank is really and option right now. Any words of wisdom? (It's a Campy Veloche 10 speed standard crank) Please make my head stop spinning.


I just went through the same thing. I could not find a campy 13-27 for a reasonable price. I ended up with a campy veloce 13-29. I think i got it off ebay for like $70.
2010-04-22 10:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

Training and effect on resting heart rates.  Looks like my training has paid off in significantly lowering my resting HR.  I normally have a pretty low resting HR, somewhere in the upper 40's to low 50's.  I went for my yearly flight physical today and had a EKG done.  I think I kind of surprised the Corpsman (med tech), as my resting HR was as low as 38.  This is a new low for me previous being around 41. 

I would imagine that I have pretty much bottomed out on dropping it any lower, at least while I am still breathing! 

Question... Does resting HR indicate a level of heart efficiency, health, or is it a function of genetics and training?



2010-04-22 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
dharris13 - 2010-04-22 9:36 AM
PennState - 2010-04-22 8:52 AM Josh I agree with you in general that track workouts are not usually necessary for an Ironman triathlete. The expression is "trackwork is the icing on the cake, and most of us don't even have cake yet"

Fred i like that quote a lot
Yeah i know for me last year while training for my 70.3's and a marathon i did a weekly track workout with a training partner who did short course tri. Not only did i not feel that it helped me as much as i would like...but it caused a lot of injuries for me. I cut that out and i miraculously got better. It could also be that i pushed too hard too soon (i am really good at making that mistake).


Completely agree, track/speed workouts for IM distance is high risk with low return for the vast majority of us out there competing.  You read things in Runners World all the time about track/speed workouts, but they are typically talking about 5k/10k race training, talking with a pro (who none of us should be comparing ourselves to based on the logs I've looked at), or the occasional marathon training.  I love that magazine, but I remind myself that they don't have to swim and bike before they run.  Once you flip the IM switch and set that as the goal, you have entered a realm that is beyond what most of articles and information you read are talking about.  It's like trying to adapt a 5k run training plan or people's suggestions on them into a 50-100mile ultra running training plan.

Even when you look at the pros, a lot of them took years focused on shorter distance races before they moved into the IM realm.  Chrissie Wellington's coach told her she was going to do an IM and she replied with "You think I'm ready for that?".  Both the Bennet's (Laura & Greg) focused on the Olympics and 'shorter' races like 70.3s to make their living before finally trying an IM.  In essence, they took years to build up to their performance at the IM level.  They obviously were at a different level at the shorter distances as well than we are, but those years of training and gradually trying and training for races as they went from Olys to HIMs was building a solid foundation for them to build on when they finally started training for the IM.  The rest of us just seem to jump into the IM distance when compared to the pros (myself included).  Not saying it can't be done, obviously I'm confident in my own ability to not only finish but finish with a decent goal time, but would 3+ more years of training focused on Olys and HIMs make my first IM much better than what it will be?  I fully believe so.

But these pros racing IMs can do speed work if they choose... their base fitness is far beyond ours.
2010-04-22 11:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on speed work. I appreciate them and agree with everything that has been said.

I'm in a bit of a tough spot since I'm paying for this group coaching program for the Wildflower Oly, which will then transition into another program for the Vineman half and track is one of our weekly coached workouts. I'd hate to skip a workout each week that I paid for and is included in the training plan.

I talked to my coach last night about my concerns and he told me that I was probably going too hard and need to dial it back a bit. I'm one of the slower runners in the group and I was trying to keep up with everyone else which was leading to calf pain. We had a 2 mile time trial last night to see our progress from 10 weeks ago, and I took it pretty easy and tried to run at my own pace and I felt much more comfortable.

For me track has been helpful in terms of working on my running form (I tend to slouch) and has helped me learn how to pace better. I'll probably keep up the group workouts through the Vineman half and then drop them once I start training for the trail marathon I'm planning on doing in December. For that race I just need to run a lot of trail and hills!
2010-04-22 11:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
dharris13 - 2010-04-22 10:38 AM

PennState - 2010-04-21 8:28 PM
IdealMuse - 2010-04-21 8:11 PM This gearing talk is timely as I'm trying to figure this out for my bike as well, but I'm still very overwhelmed and only just starting to understand gearing. My training group coach says 12-25 is good for IMOO but I read a lot of people go with a 12-27. Some suggest at 27 is *NEEDED* Campy doesn't seem to have that gear ratio or at least the guy at the bike store said my available option would be 13-27. I don't want to lose too much of the top end of my speed range either though... I have fairly strong legs, but I am also carrying some extra body weight (181 currently) I apparently have I think a 11-23? Don't want to invest too much more in this bike so I don't think a compact crank is really and option right now. Any words of wisdom? (It's a Campy Veloche 10 speed standard crank) Please make my head stop spinning.


I just went through the same thing. I could not find a campy 13-27 for a reasonable price. I ended up with a campy veloce 13-29. I think i got it off ebay for like $70.


Have you installed it yet? Wondering if the gaps in the gearing are annoying or not. I think I'll probably go with the 13-27 at least. If I can fine one...

Talked to coach and she's fine with me choosing this over the 12-25 she recommended. Probably going to wait a few months so I can train with the 11-23 for strength gains on the trainer, but I'm going to switch out some time in the next month or two once I start making it upto Madison to test the course.

Thanks for the help everyone. My Bike is at the shop right now getting a new front chain-ring and tune up. (Chain ring was wearing from bad gear choices when I first got the bike I would cross the chain too much)

This is rest week for me... so just a light run/strength session today. Tomorrow we re-test on the swim. Last time I think my time was 2:18/100 and stoke count embarrassingly high at 28. I know I've got the stroke count down. Hoping the time will improve as well.
2010-04-22 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
GRB1 - 2010-04-22 9:45 AM

Question... Does resting HR indicate a level of heart efficiency, health, or is it a function of genetics and training?

 

From what I understand.  It is a measure of health for that individual person. 

Doctors that have taken my RHR (technically my ambient heart rate since I am awake for a few hours already) and made comments like: wow, your heart is going to last a long time, it's barely working.  They explained it to me like: Take an can engine that can run at 6k rpm.  If most of the time it's run with low rpms the engine will last a long time since it's only using a fraction of it's abilities most of the time, but if you constantly have the pedal to the floor and run it at 6k rpms everywhere you go... the thing is going to blow up much sooner.

I believe part of it is genetics, but training does effect it.  You train, you get in better physical shape, your heart gets stronger and your RHR drops because it can push more blood around your body with less effort than it could before.  Your max HR is like the 6k rpm engine max... your RHR is like keeping that engine at idle most of the time... if the idle is set really high the engine is working hard constantly to do relatively nothing.

It has generally been decided that your RHR when compared to other people has nearly 0 indication to how you would perform in a race.  A guy with a 38bpm RHR can still be beaten by a guy with a 45bpm RHR.  But having it lower is great for your personal health and can really freak out doctors and nurses ;-)

 

Story time:

I was hit by a car last summer 2 weeks before my A race (a HIM), so obviously in great shape from the year of training and had started my taper.  I go to the doctor to get checked out a day or two following the accident.  The nurse takes my pulse, starts to walk out of the room as he writes it down and says: "D@mn! That's low".  I'm thinking... what is it?! (I believed I was in the 55-60 range at this point).  The doctor comes in checks me over and says I'm good to go.  I stand up, grab my stuff from the other chair as I ask him what the nurse wrote down for my HR.   He tells me 46, grabs my wrist for a few seconds and says: "I believe it, you're at 52 right now and you just stood up and and were moving around which would put most people above 90 already".

Story time 2:

My brother doesn't do triathlons, but he mountain bikes, runs and does some 24 hour mtb races and 50mile mtb races and stuff.  Plus he lives at 9k feet, used to be ski patrol for a ski resort and is now a firefighter in his town.  So he's taking EMT classes down here in Denver ~5k ft elevation, they are teaching everyone on the machines and hooking each other up to the EKGs and stuff.  They connect him and the instructor thought the other guy had connected it wrong.  They reconnect it a second time... same thing... my brother's RHR at that point was around 36bpm.  Lance Armstrong is around 32-34.  But my brothers' max HR is only around 190 where Lance is above 200 and a decade older.  So obviously RHR doesn't have any indication to how well you perform... because my brother won't come close to Lance at a race like the Leadville 100 unless it's at the starting line.

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