Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 24)

Honestly, I don't think you should think about pace.  Especially when your limiter is injury-related, you should be focused on how it feels, not just in the moment, but day to day and week to week.  I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you, but running is a different kettle of fish, and the numero uno consideration is being able to keep running.  Consistency is king.  The difference (for your race pace) between hitting 10:00/mile and 11:00/mile in training is next to nothing.  The difference between hitting 11:00/mile in training and zero training due to injury is huge.

+1 

For me, 95% of all my running is at a pace where I can have a conversation, which on my watch using a heartrate monitor is usually around Zone 2. I hardly ever look at my pace, all that matters is that heart rate. There's so much variability in a given workout's run pace: temperature, humidity, dehydration, previous workouts, hills, etc. 

I'd just train at a comfortable rate (Zone 2 if you have a heart rate monitor) and just stay consistent with your effort and volume. Then, as the race approaches, you'll need some brick runs and some Zone 3-4 intervals to simulate running on tired legs. That's just my two cents.

Nasty weather here too, I'm glad I have that trainer in the garage!

A swimming breakthrough this morning! I woke up tired, but once I was in the pool, I just felt great! I did my swim workout, mostly consisting of drills and a set of 12x100's, and just felt strong the whole time. I don't know if I'm getting some swim conditioning back after the off-season, but this morning was a huge improvement over every other swim workout so far. Or, my wife and I did go to Nate and his fiancee's place for dinner last night, so maybe it was the peach sorbet made in his fancy new Vitamix.

Oh, one more thing, Nate and I were talking and we both mentioned that we're struggling to find a comfortable seat position in aero. I think I want to try out one of those saddles that has the air/blood flow channel, any recommendations? Also, how do I get one? I'm worried about paying a lot for one, and then not being able to take it back if I feel like a different model would be better. Ideas/suggestions?

Finally got back to the winter bike program yesterday. Thankfully the scheduled workout was on the easy side because I'm still not really myself. Might run tonight but I'm playing it safe the next couple of days so I'll see how I feel after work. I've been sick too much lately to rush back into training. I want to make sure it's resolved this time.

I'm still using the seat that cam with my bike but with all this time on the trainer my butt really never stops hurting so I'm interested in the answer too-although it may be different for men and women-also I'm still riding a roadie.

Jamie, great job on the swim!

BTW, it was definitely the vegetarian and vegan food we fed you. Plant Strong!

I'm going to give the Adamo saddle a trial run thanks to Randy. Hoping it will relieve the pressure and I'll be able to feel my lower extremeties after a 30 minute ride!

Michael you are correct when you said “I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you”.  As a competitive swimmer the concept is completely foreign to me.  That said, I am smart enough to understand that I don’t know what I don’t know. Also, I didn’t join a mentor group to ignore the advice of people much more experienced than I.

So thanks Rene, Michael & Jamie for the input.  But in reading Jamie’s comments am I approaching this all wrong?

Right now the mile I am running is at a much higher rate than zone 2.  Should I slow down and run a bit farther, slow down and run the same distance or something else? I am more than willing to let you guys teach this old dog some new tricks as it were.  Thanks in advance for the feedback.

When I go out for a run and it doesn't matter how fast I am going my heart rate goes through the roof. Starting from a walking position and barely jogging I can easily get to high 160's/low 170's. I had a knee injury that is finally getting better and I am beginning to run again. My coach now has me walking/running and keep my heart rate under 150.  I guess in order to get faster and develop better cardiovascular endurance you have to start slow ... Its rough knowing that I can run a 9 minute mile for a few miles but I am not supposed to. The thing is that all the books I have read about triathlon/running/ultramarathon all say work on Z2 running and you will gradually get faster. (I HOPE ITS TRUE AND COMES FASTER RATHER THAN LATER)

On another front I have started training in Wushu and I can't believe how sore I am after a one hour session. Its so much different than the traditional Taekwondo that I am used to. Is anyone else at all practicing martial arts? 

In my experience, and what I've heard and read, nice and easy is the key to running. Of the three disciplines in triathlon, it's the hardest on the body. Running slowly reduces that wear and tear, or muscle tears and strains, that will result in injuries. Also, Zone 2 is where the body burns fat and uses the aerobic system to fuel itself. Above that, you start using more fast twitch muscles that require different types of energy, and you're less able to hold that speed for long periods of time, which is the goal with endurance sports: to hold a moderately high speed for a long time. The goal is to keep the heart rate low, running whatever speed, and, as your body gets more efficient at running, you'll be able to run faster without having to necessarily work harder. Then, once you have that aerobic base, you throw in some interval training at Zones 3, 4 to simulate race pace, which is the pace that you'll race at, but not most of your training. For instance, my long runs are at whatever speed they turn out to be, as long as I stay around Zone 2. Then, during a race, I have a goal pace in mind, but is faster than what I spend 90% of my training doing.

I'm far from an expert on this, and I'm not anything like a fast runner, but everything I've ever heard about this says the same thing. Rich Roll has a podcast, and he just had Ben Greenfield on there, and they talked about this (Link) for awhile. Rich is a huge proponent of Zone 2 training and its results. Anyone else feel free to chime in and tell me I'm all wrong. 

Interesting stuff on the saddles - I'm always on the lookout for the next best saddle.  I had my sit bones measured so I know I'm on the right size but I'll always try others!  THANKS.

FWIW My friend has an Adamo and loves it!  Probably can't go wrong with either!

I woke up this am and could tell I had a nasty headache starting.....so I stayed in bed.  MEH.   I can move today's swim to Saturday since it looks like my ski season is over.  No big deal. Spin last night and again tomorrow.  

Aleve is my favorite NSAID, FYI

back to work.  Train well, all!

Wow, actually saw some snow during my travels in south Alabama today. On my drive back into town I stopped and got a cup of coffee and grabbed a candy bar. An hour later I was at the pool for my swim. Started fine but boy did I feel sluggish as the workout progressed....I think I kind of bonked as the sugar and caffeine wore off. Oh well, live and learn. Got the swim done then got home and headed out on a run. First time in more than a month that I've run 2 days in a row. Felt pretty good and no problems with the calf at this point......fingers crossed.

Saddles-I've been on a Cobb for the past 2-3 years. During that time I bought an Adamo as it seemed to work so well for so many. Tried it for 1-2 months and never got the magic "ride forever" feeling. I adjusted it several times but it was never as comfortable as the Cobb. I went back to the Cobb but gave the Adamo another shot last Fall. Same result. So, I'm back on the Cobb and don't have any problems with it. Its comfortable and I'm fine on it for the distances I race.  I'd love to try a Dash saddle but they are $400 or so. Even though they have a great return policy I'd be afraid that I might like it and I'm not sure how I could rationalize that purchase. They are really odd looking and super light.

Running-easy is the way to go. Don't worry about pace (even though I do sometimes). Heart Rate is a good way to guage your effort level but it does have some variables. Do your miles at an "easy run" pace and the more you do that the faster that "easy run" pace will become.     

If you teach me how to swim, I'll teach you how to run.  ;-)

Basically, yes, as others have already said.  Slow down and go longer.  That's why I focused on your swimming background.   Swimmer's (for good reason) like to do lots of intensity, and given a choice, they'd generally do 20x100 on a really hard interval and emerge barely able to lift their arms than 4K easy and hop out of the pool feeling like they could do it again.

Somewhere between 95% and 100% of the time, running is the opposite of that.  At the end of most of your runs (exceptions noted below) you should finish feeling like you could do it again.  Not tomorrow...right now.  (Don't actually do it again though!)

In short, more running is generally better, and more running (without injury) is possible only if you dial the effort way down.  This is true in spades for newer runners. 

The reason is twofold.

First, a lot of what you are recovering from in running is not muscular, and so does not in general register as fatigue after a run.  But it is there nonetheless, and eventually will make itself known in the form of an injury.  In other words:  respect the fact that there is damage (from which you need to recover) that you do not feel (until it becomes a problem).

Second, the muscular damage from which you recover in running is different from the damage from which you are recovering in biking and swimming.  It (running damage) comes largely from eccentric contractions, meaning that the muscle is elongating while it is attempting to contract.  This doesn't happen (by and large) in swimming and biking.  But intuitively it is not hard to see that stretching a muscle in one direction while pulling it in the other is going to be very stressful on the muscle, and will cause damage quite different from the damage associated with the repeated (but not eccentric) contractions that lead to the fatigue we feel after a hard swim.  This latter sort of fatigue has a lot more to do with depleting energy stores, building up waste products, developing a shortage of contraction-enabling molecules, and those sorts of thing, and we recover pretty quickly from those sorts of 'damage', mainly by flushing out the bad stuff and replenishing the good stuff.)

For new runners running less than, say (arbitrarily), 20 miles per week, I would say that outside of races, you should be close to the 100% side of "I could do it again right now" in your workouts.  This doesn't entirely rule out faster running.  You can still do strides, which are a GREAT way to improve.  Let me repeat that:  Strides are a GREAT way to improve.

If you have proven injury resistance and are running, say (arbitrarily), 20 or more miles per week, then the harder running may constitute up to 5% of your running (by distance).  In those cases, you will not generally feel like you could do it again, nor should you.  If you are doing repetitions, you should feel like you could do one more without dropping pace.  If you are doing a tempo run, you should feel like you could continue for another mile or more at that pace.

In addition, for newish runners, once your long runs get above 10 miles or so, again you should not necessarily feel like you could do it again.  For more experienced runners running more than say (arbitrarily) 40-50 miles per week, I think that number should be more like 14-15.

As I've tried to emphasize, none of the above should be taken as the law.  But something in the ballpark of what I've said is what generally works for people, generally for the reasons I've given.  (I've left a lot out, but this is already long!)

Jason I agree that a reset is in order here.  Tomorrow I will go slower and see what 1.5 miles feels like.  Once I find a good number, definitely not to exceed 2 miles I will apply the 10% rule.

Michael your offer "If you teach me how to swim, I'll teach you how to run. ;-)" is one I would be happy to accept.  Thanks for taking the time to provide a bit more detail.

I love to swim and I love to ride.  Nothing would make me happier than to feel the same way about running.  Sadly in all the years I have competed in somehting, running was part of the training, and always hated.  But the 'coaching' I got was just, go run xx miles.

So I will find a new starting point.  Slow down and try to get in 3-4 days a week.  Gradually increase the distance with no concern about pace.  I think the mental aspect of not watching my time is going to be very hard for me.  Old habits die hard, but if they must for me to reach my goals, then they must.

I think it was Longfellow that said "For after all, the best thing one can do when it is raining is let it rain."

Thanks everyone for the help.

That is a very good plan.  Once a week, indulge your desire to look at a clock and 4 times during the run, run comfortably hard for 30 seconds, then immediately resume your previous level of effort.  ('Strides'.)

This isn't sprinting.  If you don't feel like you've entirely recovered in about 10-20 seconds then you went too hard.  Strides are great for improving efficiency and are basically risk-free (injury-wise).

Happy Friday everyone!!

Got in another winter trainer session.  I've slacked off biking since I stopped riding outside and I can't wait until I'm back conditioned again.  My heart rate doesn't recover as fast as it should - and I know that comes with time but it's frustrating.

ok so reading about those saddles..... I looked at them online and they don't seem as wide as my saddle/most women's saddles.

ie this is mine: http://store.trekbikes.com/product/bontrager+affinity+rl+wsd.do

and they come in 134 144 or 154mm

On the Cobb website, the Max only comes in 130mm.  Does anyone know the mechanics behind this?  I mean if my sit bones measure wider than that, wouldn't they end up hanging off the sides?

THANKS - and have a good day!!