Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 24)
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Stuartap - 2013-01-16 10:17 PM So far all you runners (and I think that's everyone in this group but me), what should I shoot for on my run with this background. 1. Ran the 5k in my tri last month @ 11:31/mile. I ran only 3 or 4 days in the six months leading up to the race due to injury. 2. On a treadmill I ran a mile in 10:50 today. I always do it at the end of my workout when I am warmed up real well. I walk on the treadmill for about five minute then run the mile and then a few minutes cool down. 3. I paln on increasing the distance each week by 10% which will get to the 5k mark three weeks before my late April Sprint. 4. I have three sprints a month apart in April-May-June. 5. I have an Oly in Nov. I would love to get to 10 Min/mile. When would be a good target to hit that? Honestly, I don't think you should think about pace. Especially when your limiter is injury-related, you should be focused on how it feels, not just in the moment, but day to day and week to week. I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you, but running is a different kettle of fish, and the numero uno consideration is being able to keep running. Consistency is king. The difference (for your race pace) between hitting 10:00/mile and 11:00/mile in training is next to nothing. The difference between hitting 11:00/mile in training and zero training due to injury is huge. I just typed (and deleted) a long example from my own history, the point of which was this: you can race much harder than you train. Given where you are with the run, you should focus on doing what it takes to keep running as much as possible and let pace work itself out on race day. My 2c. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I didn't see that Rene already said what I did, much more succinctly. Great minds think alike... Edited by Experior 2013-01-16 10:27 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Good morning everyone! Cold, wet and windy here today. I'll be on the road for work today but hope to get in a swim and run later. Hope everyone has a good day! |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Experior - 2013-01-16 11:02 PM Stuartap - 2013-01-16 10:17 PM So far all you runners (and I think that's everyone in this group but me), what should I shoot for on my run with this background. 1. Ran the 5k in my tri last month @ 11:31/mile. I ran only 3 or 4 days in the six months leading up to the race due to injury. 2. On a treadmill I ran a mile in 10:50 today. I always do it at the end of my workout when I am warmed up real well. I walk on the treadmill for about five minute then run the mile and then a few minutes cool down. 3. I paln on increasing the distance each week by 10% which will get to the 5k mark three weeks before my late April Sprint. 4. I have three sprints a month apart in April-May-June. 5. I have an Oly in Nov. I would love to get to 10 Min/mile. When would be a good target to hit that? Honestly, I don't think you should think about pace. Especially when your limiter is injury-related, you should be focused on how it feels, not just in the moment, but day to day and week to week. I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you, but running is a different kettle of fish, and the numero uno consideration is being able to keep running. Consistency is king. The difference (for your race pace) between hitting 10:00/mile and 11:00/mile in training is next to nothing. The difference between hitting 11:00/mile in training and zero training due to injury is huge. I just typed (and deleted) a long example from my own history, the point of which was this: you can race much harder than you train. Given where you are with the run, you should focus on doing what it takes to keep running as much as possible and let pace work itself out on race day. My 2c. +1 For me, 95% of all my running is at a pace where I can have a conversation, which on my watch using a heartrate monitor is usually around Zone 2. I hardly ever look at my pace, all that matters is that heart rate. There's so much variability in a given workout's run pace: temperature, humidity, dehydration, previous workouts, hills, etc. I'd just train at a comfortable rate (Zone 2 if you have a heart rate monitor) and just stay consistent with your effort and volume. Then, as the race approaches, you'll need some brick runs and some Zone 3-4 intervals to simulate running on tired legs. That's just my two cents. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Nasty weather here too, I'm glad I have that trainer in the garage! A swimming breakthrough this morning! I woke up tired, but once I was in the pool, I just felt great! I did my swim workout, mostly consisting of drills and a set of 12x100's, and just felt strong the whole time. I don't know if I'm getting some swim conditioning back after the off-season, but this morning was a huge improvement over every other swim workout so far. Or, my wife and I did go to Nate and his fiancee's place for dinner last night, so maybe it was the peach sorbet made in his fancy new Vitamix. Oh, one more thing, Nate and I were talking and we both mentioned that we're struggling to find a comfortable seat position in aero. I think I want to try out one of those saddles that has the air/blood flow channel, any recommendations? Also, how do I get one? I'm worried about paying a lot for one, and then not being able to take it back if I feel like a different model would be better. Ideas/suggestions? |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Cobb Saddle |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Finally got back to the winter bike program yesterday. Thankfully the scheduled workout was on the easy side because I'm still not really myself. Might run tonight but I'm playing it safe the next couple of days so I'll see how I feel after work. I've been sick too much lately to rush back into training. I want to make sure it's resolved this time. I'm still using the seat that cam with my bike but with all this time on the trainer my butt really never stops hurting so I'm interested in the answer too-although it may be different for men and women-also I'm still riding a roadie. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Jamie- good job on the swim. I love the feeling of progress!I am by no means an expert in the running category but I cannot emphasize enough the importance of consistency. Training pace and race pace can vary tremendously. My last 25 k I averaged 8:04 per mile, while my training pace was about 9:30 per mile. I still had lots left in the tank at the end. Finally a whole day off! Lots to do. I appreciate everyone's suggestions on where to relocate. I will not be moving at least until Jan 2014 but already I am feeling the excitement. Time goes by fast, and I have lots of research loose ends to finish up at the current job. I will start interviewing next month.So off to the gym in an hour. Plan is for run and swim. I'm just having fun with training, doing what I feel like doing. Training plan not started yet. Months like these are very enjoyable. No pressure! I sure would like to reach 50000 yards in the pool this month, but don't think I can make it. ![]() |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Jamie- good job on the swim. I love the feeling of progress!I am by no means an expert in the running category but I cannot emphasize enough the importance of consistency. Training pace and race pace can vary tremendously. My last 25 k I averaged 8:04 per mile, while my training pace was about 9:30 per mile. I still had lots left in the tank at the end. Finally a whole day off! Lots to do. I appreciate everyone's suggestions on where to relocate. I will not be moving at least until Jan 2014 but already I am feeling the excitement. Time goes by fast, and I have lots of research loose ends to finish up at the current job. I will start interviewing next month.So off to the gym in an hour. Plan is for run and swim. I'm just having fun with training, doing what I feel like doing. Training plan not started yet. Months like these are very enjoyable. No pressure! I sure would like to reach 50000 yards in the pool this month, but don't think I can make it. ![]() |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Jamie, great job on the swim! BTW, it was definitely the vegetarian and vegan food we fed you. Plant Strong! I'm going to give the Adamo saddle a trial run thanks to Randy. Hoping it will relieve the pressure and I'll be able to feel my lower extremeties after a 30 minute ride! Edited by leechj 2013-01-17 8:18 AM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I am going to echo Rene's advice on the Cobb saddle. It totally changed how I feel about my bike. They offer a 180 day money back guarantee. If you call the number on the website you will talk to a real human who will ask you some questions and tell you what saddle they think you should try. Do I have zero discomfort? No. But it is worlds different than it used to be for me on the bike. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Cobb saddle on both my roadie and Tri bikes. Males and females both highly recommend these saddles. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Michael you are correct when you said “I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you”. As a competitive swimmer the concept is completely foreign to me. That said, I am smart enough to understand that I don’t know what I don’t know. Also, I didn’t join a mentor group to ignore the advice of people much more experienced than I. So thanks Rene, Michael & Jamie for the input. But in reading Jamie’s comments am I approaching this all wrong? Right now the mile I am running is at a much higher rate than zone 2. Should I slow down and run a bit farther, slow down and run the same distance or something else? I am more than willing to let you guys teach this old dog some new tricks as it were. Thanks in advance for the feedback. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() When I go out for a run and it doesn't matter how fast I am going my heart rate goes through the roof. Starting from a walking position and barely jogging I can easily get to high 160's/low 170's. I had a knee injury that is finally getting better and I am beginning to run again. My coach now has me walking/running and keep my heart rate under 150. I guess in order to get faster and develop better cardiovascular endurance you have to start slow ... Its rough knowing that I can run a 9 minute mile for a few miles but I am not supposed to. The thing is that all the books I have read about triathlon/running/ultramarathon all say work on Z2 running and you will gradually get faster. (I HOPE ITS TRUE AND COMES FASTER RATHER THAN LATER) On another front I have started training in Wushu and I can't believe how sore I am after a one hour session. Its so much different than the traditional Taekwondo that I am used to. Is anyone else at all practicing martial arts? |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Stuartap - 2013-01-17 12:23 PM Michael you are correct when you said “I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you”. As a competitive swimmer the concept is completely foreign to me. That said, I am smart enough to understand that I don’t know what I don’t know. Also, I didn’t join a mentor group to ignore the advice of people much more experienced than I. So thanks Rene, Michael & Jamie for the input. But in reading Jamie’s comments am I approaching this all wrong? Right now the mile I am running is at a much higher rate than zone 2. Should I slow down and run a bit farther, slow down and run the same distance or something else? I am more than willing to let you guys teach this old dog some new tricks as it were. Thanks in advance for the feedback. In my experience, and what I've heard and read, nice and easy is the key to running. Of the three disciplines in triathlon, it's the hardest on the body. Running slowly reduces that wear and tear, or muscle tears and strains, that will result in injuries. Also, Zone 2 is where the body burns fat and uses the aerobic system to fuel itself. Above that, you start using more fast twitch muscles that require different types of energy, and you're less able to hold that speed for long periods of time, which is the goal with endurance sports: to hold a moderately high speed for a long time. The goal is to keep the heart rate low, running whatever speed, and, as your body gets more efficient at running, you'll be able to run faster without having to necessarily work harder. Then, once you have that aerobic base, you throw in some interval training at Zones 3, 4 to simulate race pace, which is the pace that you'll race at, but not most of your training. For instance, my long runs are at whatever speed they turn out to be, as long as I stay around Zone 2. Then, during a race, I have a goal pace in mind, but is faster than what I spend 90% of my training doing. I'm far from an expert on this, and I'm not anything like a fast runner, but everything I've ever heard about this says the same thing. Rich Roll has a podcast, and he just had Ben Greenfield on there, and they talked about this (Link) for awhile. Rich is a huge proponent of Zone 2 training and its results. Anyone else feel free to chime in and tell me I'm all wrong. |
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Interesting stuff on the saddles - I'm always on the lookout for the next best saddle. I had my sit bones measured so I know I'm on the right size but I'll always try others! THANKS. FWIW My friend has an Adamo and loves it! Probably can't go wrong with either! I woke up this am and could tell I had a nasty headache starting.....so I stayed in bed. MEH. I can move today's swim to Saturday since it looks like my ski season is over. No big deal. Spin last night and again tomorrow. Aleve is my favorite NSAID, FYI back to work. Train well, all! |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Running: I've seen improvement over the last year just getting out there and getting my miles in. I follow a 1/2 or full marathon training program. I've only recently incorporated speed training and that was specifically to help me beat my PB half time. I did those speed sessions once a week and the effort was based on my 5k time. Otherwise, I just got out and ran. Sometimes I'll do a 6 mile run at a 11:30ish pace, sometimes it's around 10. Depends on how my body is feeling. If it's not feeling like going any faster, I won't force it. I have found that I will naturally run the short stuff, like 3 milers, quickly and my time for 3 miles has come way down without even really focusing on it. Saddles: I have what the bikes came with, but I don't put nearly as many miles in as the rest of you. I do plan to, so I need new ones. I do get uncomfortable even with short rides. Training: Yesterday I took the mountain bike up Nimitiz Hill. Only was able to do the main part. It was only around 88F yesterday, but it felt like 100F. Hot and muggy. We have so much water in the air right now, it's suffocating! Had to tap out on that one. As soon as I start to feel woozy in the heat, I abort. Heat exhaustion takes me days to get over. Today I'll run a short 4 at lunch and hopefully get an open water swim in in the afternoon. It's husband's rest day so he can help with the kids at the beach. Happy training! Edited by Blanda 2013-01-17 2:44 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Wow, actually saw some snow during my travels in south Alabama today. On my drive back into town I stopped and got a cup of coffee and grabbed a candy bar. An hour later I was at the pool for my swim. Started fine but boy did I feel sluggish as the workout progressed....I think I kind of bonked as the sugar and caffeine wore off. Oh well, live and learn. Got the swim done then got home and headed out on a run. First time in more than a month that I've run 2 days in a row. Felt pretty good and no problems with the calf at this point......fingers crossed. Saddles-I've been on a Cobb for the past 2-3 years. During that time I bought an Adamo as it seemed to work so well for so many. Tried it for 1-2 months and never got the magic "ride forever" feeling. I adjusted it several times but it was never as comfortable as the Cobb. I went back to the Cobb but gave the Adamo another shot last Fall. Same result. So, I'm back on the Cobb and don't have any problems with it. Its comfortable and I'm fine on it for the distances I race. I'd love to try a Dash saddle but they are $400 or so. Even though they have a great return policy I'd be afraid that I might like it and I'm not sure how I could rationalize that purchase. They are really odd looking and super light. Running-easy is the way to go. Don't worry about pace (even though I do sometimes). Heart Rate is a good way to guage your effort level but it does have some variables. Do your miles at an "easy run" pace and the more you do that the faster that "easy run" pace will become. Edited by slornow 2013-01-17 6:26 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Stuartap - 2013-01-17 12:23 PM Michael you are correct when you said “I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you”. As a competitive swimmer the concept is completely foreign to me. That said, I am smart enough to understand that I don’t know what I don’t know. Also, I didn’t join a mentor group to ignore the advice of people much more experienced than I. So thanks Rene, Michael & Jamie for the input. But in reading Jamie’s comments am I approaching this all wrong? Right now the mile I am running is at a much higher rate than zone 2. Should I slow down and run a bit farther, slow down and run the same distance or something else? I am more than willing to let you guys teach this old dog some new tricks as it were. Thanks in advance for the feedback. I would definitely slow down and run a little further. I think it is Michael who has often said that you should finish most of your runs feeling like you could go right back out and do the same run again. With your injury history, the 10% rule seems like a good idea but I am having a hard time reconciling that with only going from 1 mile to 1.1 mile. I intuitively feel like you could ramp up a little more than that with the low volume you are starting with. Again, running very easy and relaxed. If you went from one mile to 1.5 miles, I suspect that your body would accept this ok. I might go this distance for one to two weeks and then increase again to 1.75 or so. The incremental increases, while more than the strict 10% rule, are still small enough that I think you will be fine. Caveat; if anything hurts, back off. I am concerned that I should put on a flame resistant suit. I know everyone here is too nice to be really mean to me but I am advising Stuart to break one of the Golden Rules of training. What does everyone else think about exceeding the 10% rule at low volumes? |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Stuartap - 2013-01-17 12:23 PM Michael you are correct when you said “I realize that as a swimmer, this might sound like bad advice to you”. As a competitive swimmer the concept is completely foreign to me. That said, I am smart enough to understand that I don’t know what I don’t know. Also, I didn’t join a mentor group to ignore the advice of people much more experienced than I. So thanks Rene, Michael & Jamie for the input. But in reading Jamie’s comments am I approaching this all wrong? Right now the mile I am running is at a much higher rate than zone 2. Should I slow down and run a bit farther, slow down and run the same distance or something else? I am more than willing to let you guys teach this old dog some new tricks as it were. Thanks in advance for the feedback. If you teach me how to swim, I'll teach you how to run. ;-) Basically, yes, as others have already said. Slow down and go longer. That's why I focused on your swimming background. Swimmer's (for good reason) like to do lots of intensity, and given a choice, they'd generally do 20x100 on a really hard interval and emerge barely able to lift their arms than 4K easy and hop out of the pool feeling like they could do it again. Somewhere between 95% and 100% of the time, running is the opposite of that. At the end of most of your runs (exceptions noted below) you should finish feeling like you could do it again. Not tomorrow...right now. (Don't actually do it again though!) In short, more running is generally better, and more running (without injury) is possible only if you dial the effort way down. This is true in spades for newer runners. The reason is twofold. First, a lot of what you are recovering from in running is not muscular, and so does not in general register as fatigue after a run. But it is there nonetheless, and eventually will make itself known in the form of an injury. In other words: respect the fact that there is damage (from which you need to recover) that you do not feel (until it becomes a problem). Second, the muscular damage from which you recover in running is different from the damage from which you are recovering in biking and swimming. It (running damage) comes largely from eccentric contractions, meaning that the muscle is elongating while it is attempting to contract. This doesn't happen (by and large) in swimming and biking. But intuitively it is not hard to see that stretching a muscle in one direction while pulling it in the other is going to be very stressful on the muscle, and will cause damage quite different from the damage associated with the repeated (but not eccentric) contractions that lead to the fatigue we feel after a hard swim. This latter sort of fatigue has a lot more to do with depleting energy stores, building up waste products, developing a shortage of contraction-enabling molecules, and those sorts of thing, and we recover pretty quickly from those sorts of 'damage', mainly by flushing out the bad stuff and replenishing the good stuff.) For new runners running less than, say (arbitrarily), 20 miles per week, I would say that outside of races, you should be close to the 100% side of "I could do it again right now" in your workouts. This doesn't entirely rule out faster running. You can still do strides, which are a GREAT way to improve. Let me repeat that: Strides are a GREAT way to improve. If you have proven injury resistance and are running, say (arbitrarily), 20 or more miles per week, then the harder running may constitute up to 5% of your running (by distance). In those cases, you will not generally feel like you could do it again, nor should you. If you are doing repetitions, you should feel like you could do one more without dropping pace. If you are doing a tempo run, you should feel like you could continue for another mile or more at that pace. In addition, for newish runners, once your long runs get above 10 miles or so, again you should not necessarily feel like you could do it again. For more experienced runners running more than say (arbitrarily) 40-50 miles per week, I think that number should be more like 14-15. As I've tried to emphasize, none of the above should be taken as the law. But something in the ballpark of what I've said is what generally works for people, generally for the reasons I've given. (I've left a lot out, but this is already long!) |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Jason I agree that a reset is in order here. Tomorrow I will go slower and see what 1.5 miles feels like. Once I find a good number, definitely not to exceed 2 miles I will apply the 10% rule. Michael your offer "If you teach me how to swim, I'll teach you how to run. ;-)" is one I would be happy to accept. Thanks for taking the time to provide a bit more detail. I love to swim and I love to ride. Nothing would make me happier than to feel the same way about running. Sadly in all the years I have competed in somehting, running was part of the training, and always hated. But the 'coaching' I got was just, go run xx miles. So I will find a new starting point. Slow down and try to get in 3-4 days a week. Gradually increase the distance with no concern about pace. I think the mental aspect of not watching my time is going to be very hard for me. Old habits die hard, but if they must for me to reach my goals, then they must. I think it was Longfellow that said "For after all, the best thing one can do when it is raining is let it rain." Thanks everyone for the help. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Stuartap - 2013-01-17 10:35 PM So I will find a new starting point. Slow down and try to get in 3-4 days a week. Gradually increase the distance with no concern about pace. I think the mental aspect of not watching my time is going to be very hard for me. Old habits die hard, but if they must for me to reach my goals, then they must. That is a very good plan. Once a week, indulge your desire to look at a clock and 4 times during the run, run comfortably hard for 30 seconds, then immediately resume your previous level of effort. ('Strides'.) This isn't sprinting. If you don't feel like you've entirely recovered in about 10-20 seconds then you went too hard. Strides are great for improving efficiency and are basically risk-free (injury-wise). |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I have a hard time not watching the pace as well. I think we always instinctively want to go faster and also get to the end of a run (even though I love to run like Stuart loves to swim, I am always wanting to get the miles in and get the run over with). To conquer my pace/distance watching tendencies, I will get up to speed on a treadmill and then cover the console with a towel. The miles seem to go by much quicker if I am not constantly tracking them in front of me. I have also been known to put electrical tape over the face of my Garmin. I always wear it because I want go look at the data later but sometimes I grow tired of constantly looking at it during the actual run. |
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Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Happy Friday everyone!! Got in another winter trainer session. I've slacked off biking since I stopped riding outside and I can't wait until I'm back conditioned again. My heart rate doesn't recover as fast as it should - and I know that comes with time but it's frustrating. ok so reading about those saddles..... I looked at them online and they don't seem as wide as my saddle/most women's saddles. ie this is mine: http://store.trekbikes.com/product/bontrager+affinity+rl+wsd.do and they come in 134 144 or 154mm On the Cobb website, the Max only comes in 130mm. Does anyone know the mechanics behind this? I mean if my sit bones measure wider than that, wouldn't they end up hanging off the sides? THANKS - and have a good day!! |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() mtnbikerchk - 2013-01-18 7:33 AM p>On the Cobb website, the Max only comes in 130mm. Does anyone know the mechanics behind this? I mean if my sit bones measure wider than that, wouldn't they end up hanging off the sides? THANKS - and have a good day!! I don't tend to be on my sit bones when I am riding my tri bike in the aero position. I think this is one of the reasons why getting the right saddle is so important in triathlon. It seems like triathlete, when leaning far forward, tend to be more on the soft tissues of their perineum and not the sit bones. I find that when I ride I am most comfortable when I slide way forward on my saddle to the nose, where it is at its very narrowest. I rarely ride far back on the saddle where my sit bones would be on the seat. This is just my experience. I would be curious to hear what others have to say. ps. call Cobb and see what they have to say. Again, John Cobb is sort of a recognized guru of saddle design (I believe the standard Adamo saddle is one of his inventions as well as the Cobb brand seats), bike fit and aero positioning. They are very knowledgable there and can probably answer your question better than I can. Edited by wannabefaster 2013-01-18 8:05 AM |
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