Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! (Page 26)

Wow, I got swamped with work for a bit and have a lot to catch up on it seems!
Last week was a decent solid training week for me, and the coming three hopefully will allow for some good consistency. The Kids are back in swimming 3x weekly, so these are my weekday run days.  Tues/Thurs evenings on the trainer, swimming and building longer bike and run times on the weekend. I do need to get over my mental block of getting up for a 2x weekday swim, which is tough at the moment with the temp in single digits.  And always core/strength work needs to get fitted in somewhere; I like the brevity of the D3 workouts, does anyone have any other ideas for core?  Yoga?

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For me it's a case of not owning a treadmill.  I'd much rather run outside in the cold and snow than get in the car and drive to the gym so I can run on a treadmill.  if I actually owned one I'd think I'd use it pretty consistently.

Today is day 1 of my 18 week HM training plan.  The goal is to run 1:35, and I'm following the FIRST plan which is all about pace.  The core part of today's plan is 12x400M at a 3:56/km pace (6:19/mile for all of you south of the border) + I get to do it in -7C weather.  This in all likelhood will hurt some.

Tonight I ride the trainer, core being 3x10min at 95-100% CP.  Definetly a day of intensity for me.

One other question/comment - who else loves swimming with their pull buoy?  I'll raise my hand.  If I could manage the same pace at the same intensity that I can while just swimming, then I'd be fairly happy.  I know it's a massive crutch but it just lets me focus on getting the stroke correct, breathing properly, etc.  When I just swim, so much of my effort is dedicated to remembering to kick, timing the kick, kicking just enough, etc, etc.  My form just falls apart because I need to remind myself to do things with my upper body but so much time is spent thinking about my lower body.  Kicking is completely unnatural for me in the water because I'm trying to reform my style of simply dragging my legs along for the ride.

Annyhow, that's my love/hate relationship with the pull buoy.  Love it cause I feel I can actually swim when using it - hate it cause form disappears as soon as I don't use it.

I'll second that.
 
I never knew about planks until I took the kettelbell class.  Eventually I think the instructor will have us use kettelbells with planks.  Ouch!  

I've got a speedwork run at lunch (7 miles with 4x1600's @ Interval/VO2max pace) and getting back into the pool groove tonight with a little over 2000 yards after work.  I'm not sure I can handle pace the running calculators/plan prescribe...we'll see how it goes.

I do and quit a bit, mainly with paddles as well. 
 
I don’t look at it as a crutch but a useful tool.  I focus on upper body and rotation.  Really helps me focus on lats and hip rotation. 
 
I also use paddles quite a bit.  Caution if you have shoulder issues lay low on the paddles.  If you have good form and technique crush them.

I used to run with my roommate every once and a while.  My easy pace was about 7:30-7:45.  His pace was between 8:30 and 9:00.  A short run with him felt harder to do than a run a minute per mile faster (even though my HR was very low) and twice as long.  I figured that because of the slower pace I was running differently somehow, cadence, stride, something, and that my body just isn't adapted to run like that.  The easy pace for me seems almost engrained muscle memory for me, and straying outside (faster or slower) is just plain harder to do.  I don't remember a difference in the next day (it's been awhile since he sort of gave up running), but perhaps its that "different" running the running slower is forcing you do to?  You're not adapted to it yet?

Personally, I don't run as slow as I should because of stupid macho reasons...how else do you impress everyone you run past????  J/k...but not really...no really...but only a little

Thanks for the reply jsiegs!
 
That sounds feasible.  Using muscles in a different way and capacity.
 
I like to here from some others. 

 
Now I am off to the gym for a TM run. 

I had a similar experience this summer.  Although I have a running background, I didn't have experience trying to run slower than 'easy' pace.  When I tried that this summer in prep for IM I found that slower was harder (on my legs).  Surprised me.

Since the topic has come up, I'll go ahead and toss out a question that I have on the issue of slow run pacing...

How does everyone choose paces during IM training (esp the build)?  The last two years I've just gone with whatever pace feels 'easy' for my long runs (up to 20 miles) and my b/r bricks.  Those paces have been similar to paces I would use if I were training for a standalone marathon.  

Of course, during IM I need to run slower than that.  So, my question is, would it be better to train closer to my expected IM pace even if I can run faster in training without negatively impacting subsequent workouts?  My current guess (based in part on issues touched on above) is that I might benefit from doing some of my long run training at IM pace, even if I can run faster than that.

Not expecting any definitive answers here, just interested to hear the group's thoughts/experience.

(FWIW, my IM run experience is limited by: 1) overcooking the bike in 2009, and 2) not being able to run 5 weeks prior to IMWI in 2010.)

I've got to agree with Joe.  I think that running easy doesn't necessarily mean running slow (relatively speaking).  If your easy comfortable pace is 8:15min/mile but you're forcing yourself to run at 8:45's, I don't know what you actually achieve.  The only thing I know from personal experience is that forcing myself to slow down too much puts added stress on the body because it's not used to what I'm doing.  I equate easy = comfortable, and if you're making yourself run slower than you're actually comfortable doing, then that doesn't make much sense to me.

That's really well put - running easy doesn't necessarily mean running slow.  For me, running at the paces the calculators tell me to for easy runs is definitley not too slow, but about a min/mile slower is.

FWIW - on today's speedwork run, the half miles I spent at about 8:30/mile (easy pace is about 7:30/mile) between intervals were definitly NOT too slow, but felt like the right pace to recover.

Rob, I have no IM experience, so all I can do is tell you what I am doing - I have no idea if it will work in the long run. I too have a very difficult time running slow, and also can feel a little beat up after my LSD runs. A few things:

1. I remember years ago Paula Newby-Fraser being asked why she always came out at midnight to welcome the last Kona finishers in. She stated something to the effect that she felt that these were the "true" Ironmen, and that there was no way that she would ever be able to do what they had just accomplished. She explained this by pointing out that their feet in all likelihood had hit the ground 3 or more times more than hers - she just could not fathom the pounding that they submitted themselves to.
2. Ever notice how when you start to get tired and slow down, you actually  reduce your stride count but then often compensate by extending your stride length? That's what I do anyway, which increases heel strike & subsequent impact.
3. A few years ago I volunteered to walk with a friend who was doing one of those two-day, back-to-back marathon charity things. I was in great ultra-running shape at the time, but I have to tell you - walking 26.2 miles 2 days in a row kinda took it out of me - it just used completely different systems that I was not used to. I have to think that maybe running slow is kinda the same thing?

So here is what I have going on to compensate:
When I started my coaching a few months ago, one of the first people I met with was a running-specific coach. After watching me run different paces and running with me long, he noted that I needed to train myself to keep my stride count up no matter the speed I was running. For three months my prescribed longer runs have focused on keeping HR down and stride count up over pretty rugged terrain, ie: lots of hilly trail runs. I work to keep my stride count at 180 strides per minute no matter the terrain, and if my HR creeps over the prescribed rate, I have to walk until it drops at least 5 beats below. when I started out, I walked A LOT - it was very frustrating. About two weeks ago I did a test over a route I had run 3 months ago in very similar conditions. I was only slightly faster over the distance, but my HR averaged almost 18 beats per minute lower than on my initial run. Some of that is of course fitness, but it also feels  as if I am running much more efficiently: shorter strides but still quick turnover when going "easy", which causes me to land a little more on top of (and seemingly lighter) on my feet. My run coach equates it with the same strategy of dropping to a small chairing on the bike but keeping rpms up. So, I have not necessarily gotten faster, but I AM covering the same distances while expending much less energy. It seems to have worked for me, but it should be noted that I have also have been doing a fair amount of strength work as well, which has to be a contributing factor as well.

In hindsight, its kind of funny: I thoroughly believe in specific swim coaching relative to technique and form, and have spent a good bit of $$ and time getting my bike position and form dial in. It only stands to reason that working on form and body position on the run is important as well. It seems to be working for me, it might work for others as well?

So, Technique work for about 3 months, Working on LT now, begin marathon-specific speed work in about 10~12 weeks or so, then distance. Just like swimming, technique drills will continue throughout on the bike and run as well.

I've got some of my own bike porn to share.  I recently got a commuting bike, a no name Bike Nashbar bike for less than I found anything similar on Craigslist.  Anyway, my new faux hipster self has been having lots of fun riding around Baltimore on my new fixie/ss (currently in fixie mode for the novelty of it, what that wears off I'll be back to freewheelin').  I made some custom mods including bullhorns instead of the dorky riser bar as an homage to tri's, new brake lever for the bullhorns, took off the rear brake for some street cred, added some lights, and put on a shorter stem to account for the more stretched out position the bullhorns created.  Anyway, the first pic is me channeling my inner hipster acting like I took off both brakes, but really just took the rear off.  Second is the final product with the horns on there.  The mismatched bar tape was because I ran out of white and was too lazy to take it off and continued with black on the other side.

On my inaugural ride to the liquor store on NYE, I had some kids yell to me that I had a sweet bike and it was awesome.  The next morning on a 7-11 run, had a guy in a Suburban yell "you're a f-ing dork!" when I passed and I was sad.

^^^^^

Jsiegs
 
Always been intrigued by the fixie.  Sweet ride!
 
Nashbar well we have a long history back to the mid 80’.
 
My favorite saddle is a Nashbar with Ti rails bought it for $19.  Yes I’ve ridden it on my last 2 Ironmans and a bunch of other races.

Nice commuter bike!!!

Today we brought my son's commuter bike to the bike shop at his college town. He left it outside locked up over winter break with a lot of snow. There are so many things wrong with the bike but mechanic did a little tune up to get it running as well as possible for $10.

He is thinking of getting a new commuter bike...what model is this one?

It's a good question and one I don't know the answer to. I have done it two different ways.

Last year goal was to run mostly at Daniel's E pace working on negative splitting all runs including long runs knowing in IM I would likely be slower but idea was that if I trained at xxx it would increase my fitness more than running at XXX+ YYY at IM pace.

Year before goal was to train at pace that I expected to run IM not faster and always work on negative splitting. I stayed healthy training and was better trained for the race. Bike issues hurt my run but I did run more at the pace I did at training.

Hard thing with IM training and racing is we (most of us) only race one IM a year and most of us don't execute the perfect race to know if our training was best method or not. So we try again the next year perhaps training same or different the following year in hopes for better race. We haven't done enough to know the absolute best way to train for us if such a way exists.

My husband is faster runner than me and often runs with me which is maybe 60-90" slower per mile than his E pace and has no issues running slower. He continues to PB most running races he does. He has become mostly a runner and Crossfit athlete and will do a couple tris each summer.

Haha, outside over winter...how could you do that?!?! The Nashbar Hounder. Just checked the site, looks like they're popular and out of stock (and more expensive). Still really cheap though, especially since they do coupons so often. It's been a sweet bike so far. Just a note though - the rims are schrader, wasn't expecting that. Brakes aren't the greatest either, might be my next upgrade.

Hi Everyone!

Love bike pics Joe.

@ Fred: good job taking time off (I know its hard), hope calf is better

I also worked most of last 30 hours, but left my house yesterday with three different workout outfits in my bag and used them all (running/biking before work yesterday, swimming today, yoga after that).   
 

Hand in there Todd.

I, like others here, really do finding running slower hard and painful... Very very  good point, Kathy G, that IM is something (most of us) will only do once a year so don't really know how to strategize it too well just from the limited experience

kate

OH Rusty: nice football team you have!.... I was pulling for Oregon because my parents live there now. didn't see game, but my mom said your guys played excellently!

How many expect snow storm tomorrow?

The storm has been moving up the coast after hitting places that rarely get snow like Atlanta. My girls school announced it would be closed tomorrow this afternoon.

Not sure if I'll get out to do any training or be forced on the trainer at home. RI told all it's State employees to stay home.

Growing up in MN 6-20" snow storm was no big deal..close school..never happened.....even before one flake fell..laughable.