Impeach the FDA

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

meherczeg - 2010-04-21 8:49 AM

crusevegas - 2010-04-20 11:55 PM

gearboy - 2010-04-20 8:20 PM

merlin2375 - 2010-04-20 10:16 PM

If cooking your food from scratch is what it takes to achieve the desired salt content then, yes, one should cook from scratch. Snack on salt-free carrots instead of salt-laden chips, etc, etc. One could also shop for low sodium foods or shop at alternate grocery stores where there is more of a focus on "health". There's lots of choice out there.

If enough people really cared or did that then the food manufacturers would follow suit.

I don't think it is unreasonable for people to want both the convenience of pre-packaged foods and also to have less salt in their diets. Clearly if a food can be made from scratch with less sodium, it can likely be made in a factory with less. But instead, industry has ratcheted up the salt content, changing the palette over the past 10-20 years, so that foods with less salt taste less "tasty" to americans.

One example, to me, is the existence of "lightly salted butter". Why is there salt in the butter in the first place? We DO go out of our way when we cook with butter, to use pure butter, with no added salt. But there is no reason to have the salt there in the first place, except to get us used to salty flavors and then sneak it in more foods.

To say industry will follow the consumer is rather naive. Think of the airlines - nobody likes to pay for checking luggage, but all the carriers now do it. If it makes them money, and we have few convenient alternatives, they have us by the short and curlies. Sure, I could take a train or bus, for less money. But it is a lot more time consuming. Same thing with getting prepared foods.

Butter with salt will last longer, this is why the professional chefs say to get the un-salted as it is more likely to be fresher.

One of the reasons that the airline industry has the baggage fee instead of tacking it onto the ticket the airlines pay I think 7.5% to the feds for tickets no such fee for non essential charges like luggage.

ditto - salt is usually added to pre-packaged foods to make it last longer - i'd prefer salt over some of the other things they add to foods that make it last longer (shudder)

i buy the absolute minimum amount of stuff with an ingredients panel, and still have tons of convenient snacks on hand (nuts, bananas) or cook food to have it ready whenever i'm hungry. and i like to add LOTS of salt in my food. YUM YUM YUM.

Salt is also added to products not only to make them last longer but to make them safer. Having a higher salt/sodium content binds up available moisture in products thus lowering the water activity and therefore making it either difficult or impossible for pathogenic micro organisms to grow and potentially produce toxins (Coagulase Positive Staphylococcus aureus, Bacillus cereus and Clostridium botulinum to name a few).

Just another fact to throw into the decision making process.

Disclaimer: I have worked in the food testing industry for close to 16 years.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

So Fresh So Clean - 2010-04-21 9:49 AM Hypertensive here. I love this idea, and this is why: I try to reduce my sodium intake. But if I don't have enough time to BAKE MY OWN BREAD for the week, I have to eat store-bought bread. Two slices contain 17% of my daily recommended salt intake. And some times, if I don't have a left over chicken breast to place on that store-bought bread, and I have to eat salami, that is ~40% of my intake... for one sandwich. Honestly guys, when you eat less salt, you don't notice it. Then when you try salty foods again, they taste awful.

You should try and find Nature's Path Manna Bread (or ask your grocer to carry it). They make several "flavors", their multi-grain has 3 grams of sodium per serving. It tastes very good.

Edited by jdwright56 2010-04-21 12:58 PM

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Packaged food basically sucks, but it usually won't kill you... right away.

Disclaimer: I have observed 60 000 lbs of processed cheese being blended at once, and I still occasionally eat processed cheese.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

I can't believe such a huge segment of this argument has been left out to this point....what about the health COSTS that we all pay through our insurance premiums that are ridiculously high because of things like too much Salt in our diets?

If your argument is, it doesn't affect me, eat as much salt as you like...you are sorely mistaken. It seriously affects everyone reading this.

If you want to add piles and piles of salt onto your food, no one is proposing to stop you. What they are proposing is that food manufacturers can't pile gobs and gobs of salt on your food for no other reason than to get you to eat more food.

Slippery slope...please, such a lame argument. Regulation is needed from time to time. You will forever be able to add as much salt as you like after the fact...

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 12:16 PM I can't believe such a huge segment of this argument has been left out to this point....what about the health COSTS that we all pay through our insurance premiums that are ridiculously high because of things like too much Salt in our diets?

If your argument is, it doesn't affect me, eat as much salt as you like...you are sorely mistaken. It seriously affects everyone reading this.

If you want to add piles and piles of salt onto your food, no one is proposing to stop you. What they are proposing is that food manufacturers can't pile gobs and gobs of salt on your food for no other reason than to get you to eat more food.

Slippery slope...please, such a lame argument. Regulation is needed from time to time. You will forever be able to add as much salt as you like after the fact...

Apparently you missed this gem by AN ACTUAL DOCTOR:

DerekL - 2010-04-20 11:45 AM This is ridiculous. Salt isn't an issue for people without health problems. If you have health problems requiring the restriction of salt, you can choose foods lower in salt for yourself.

We can't regulate morals, intelligence or health. It just won't work and take away all of our freedoms. Yeah, making everyone fit your perfect standards sounds good and sounds ideal, but it never works.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

And do you want to know what is a HUGE cause of increased medical insurance cost, the government! Medicaid and Medicare are the major problem in my opinion.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 2:16 PM

If you want to add piles and piles of salt onto your food, no one is proposing to stop you. What they are proposing is that food manufacturers can't pile gobs and gobs of salt on your food for no other reason than to get you to eat more food.

Again, they add the salt to keep the food safer longer. If you want a can of soup that can stay in your pantry for 18 months, they are going to add salt. Canned veggies - same thing. Bread, by it's nature, will mold. If you want it to last longer - add salt. It's what people did before there was refrigeration. The health problems are AGGRAVATED by salt, not caused by salt.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 2:16 PM I can't believe such a huge segment of this argument has been left out to this point....what about the health COSTS that we all pay through our insurance premiums that are ridiculously high because of things like too much Salt in our diets?

If your argument is, it doesn't affect me, eat as much salt as you like...you are sorely mistaken. It seriously affects everyone reading this.

If you want to add piles and piles of salt onto your food, no one is proposing to stop you. What they are proposing is that food manufacturers can't pile gobs and gobs of salt on your food for no other reason than to get you to eat more food.

Slippery slope...please, such a lame argument. Regulation is needed from time to time. You will forever be able to add as much salt as you like after the fact...

This is one of the many reasons that I am so strongly opposed to single payer. I don't want you to be responsible for my choices nor do I want to be responsible for your choices.

Based on your logic, where else would regulation be needed then "from time to time"? Fats are also bad, transfats as well (oh yeah they already got that one in some places), cigarettes should be permanently banned. That's only the bad stuff. We better also pass some laws that ensure that people work out at least 20 minutes a day (under penalty of paying tax penalties, and maybe, prison. Don't forget vegetables, they are nutritious and good for your health. By the way, from time to time triathletes are injured in training and racing so that should be on the ban list as well.

Banning or tempering salt isn't part of the slippery slope, it's at or near the bottom of it. We're already well down it. Every day, a little more is chipped away from personal responsibility and choice. I'd like to know where it ends, especially in a country founded on a foundation of personal responsibility. There's no middle ground here. Either you're for the government getting into your stomach or you're not.

The only thing that's on a slippery slope is this thread falling into the realm of health care debate.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 1:16 PM

................

Slippery slope...please, such a lame argument. Regulation is needed from time to time. You will forever be able to add as much salt as you like after the fact...

I don't see it as lame at all. "Regulation is needed from time to time" isn't exactly the stuff of debate team dreams. How much regulation is enough and how much wouuld be too much? How much will this cost to implement, both in direct and indirect costs? These are very important subjects that are too often ignored because something is implemented with good intentions.

I do see another point brought up with the preservative quality of salt. It means foods will cost more because we will see more spoilage.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

bradword - 2010-04-21 11:29 AM

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 12:16 PM I can't believe such a huge segment of this argument has been left out to this point....what about the health COSTS that we all pay through our insurance premiums that are ridiculously high because of things like too much Salt in our diets?

If your argument is, it doesn't affect me, eat as much salt as you like...you are sorely mistaken. It seriously affects everyone reading this.

If you want to add piles and piles of salt onto your food, no one is proposing to stop you. What they are proposing is that food manufacturers can't pile gobs and gobs of salt on your food for no other reason than to get you to eat more food.

Slippery slope...please, such a lame argument. Regulation is needed from time to time. You will forever be able to add as much salt as you like after the fact...

Apparently you missed this gem by AN ACTUAL DOCTOR:

DerekL - 2010-04-20 11:45 AM This is ridiculous. Salt isn't an issue for people without health problems. If you have health problems requiring the restriction of salt, you can choose foods lower in salt for yourself.

We can't regulate morals, intelligence or health. It just won't work and take away all of our freedoms. Yeah, making everyone fit your perfect standards sounds good and sounds ideal, but it never works.

Yeah....ok

Hypertension

According to one report (1) in the British Medical Journal, people who consume high amounts of salt are at risk of stroke and cardiovascular disease. The recent INTERSALT study measured the salt intake of over 10,000 people in 32 countries and found that a difference of just 6 grams of salt per day was found to result in a difference of systolic blood pressure of 10mm Hg and diastolic blood pressure of 5mm Hg for a 55 year old male or female. These figures suggest that a extra 6 grams of salt consumed daily can increase in the risk of heart disease by 21 percent and stroke by 34 percent.

Osteoporosis

Other researchers (2) have found that excess salt in the diet can lead to excessive calcium loss and thereby increase the risk of osteoporosis.

Stomach Cancer

Researchers from Leuven University in Holland reviewing the dietary habits of people from 24 different countries have discovered that a high intake of salt can significantly increase the risk of stomach cancer (3).

(1) Hanneman R. Intersalt: hypertension rise with age revisited. BMJ May 18 1996:312, 1283-1289.

(2) Cappuccio FP. Dietary prevention of osteoporosis: are we ignoring the evidence? American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. May 1996:63,787-788.

(3) Joossens JV et al. Dietary salt, nitrate and stomach cancer mortality in 24 countries. International Journal of Epidemiology. June 1996: 25(3) 494-502

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 11:42 AM

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 2:16 PM I can't believe such a huge segment of this argument has been left out to this point....what about the health COSTS that we all pay through our insurance premiums that are ridiculously high because of things like too much Salt in our diets?

If your argument is, it doesn't affect me, eat as much salt as you like...you are sorely mistaken. It seriously affects everyone reading this.

If you want to add piles and piles of salt onto your food, no one is proposing to stop you. What they are proposing is that food manufacturers can't pile gobs and gobs of salt on your food for no other reason than to get you to eat more food.

Slippery slope...please, such a lame argument. Regulation is needed from time to time. You will forever be able to add as much salt as you like after the fact...

This is one of the many reasons that I am so strongly opposed to single payer. I don't want you to be responsible for my choices nor do I want to be responsible for your choices.

Based on your logic, where else would regulation be needed then "from time to time"? Fats are also bad, transfats as well (oh yeah they already got that one in some places), cigarettes should be permanently banned. That's only the bad stuff. We better also pass some laws that ensure that people work out at least 20 minutes a day (under penalty of paying tax penalties, and maybe, prison. Don't forget vegetables, they are nutritious and good for your health. By the way, from time to time triathletes are injured in training and racing so that should be on the ban list as well.

Banning or tempering salt isn't part of the slippery slope, it's at or near the bottom of it. We're already well down it. Every day, a little more is chipped away from personal responsibility and choice. I'd like to know where it ends, especially in a country founded on a foundation of personal responsibility. There's no middle ground here. Either you're for the government getting into your stomach or you're not.

The only thing that's on a slippery slope is this thread falling into the realm of health care debate.

The Government already regulates TONS of things that go into food products. So, if someone wants to put bad meat on the shelves...that's ok? It's your choice if you want to eat it right?

If someone wants to put eggs on the shelf with Salmonella that's ok...right? It's your choice to eat it.

There is a reasonable assertion that the food on the shelves is safe....the debate is whether or not stuffing food full of salt is safe. MOST people don't even know how to read a food label. Most have no idea how much salt is ok or healthy. Food processors know this and that's WHY there is too much salt in food.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

You're really comparing salt to salmonella and spoiled meat? Really?

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 3:01 PM The Government already regulates TONS of things that go into food products. So, if someone wants to put bad meat on the shelves...that's ok? It's your choice if you want to eat it right?

If someone wants to put eggs on the shelf with Salmonella that's ok...right? It's your choice to eat it.

There is a reasonable assertion that the food on the shelves is safe....the debate is whether or not stuffing food full of salt is safe. MOST people don't even know how to read a food label. Most have no idea how much salt is ok or healthy. Food processors know this and that's WHY there is too much salt in food.

I know we're not going to agree but that is OK. We can still share ideas.

I think a reasonable person can see and understand the difference between someone negligently putting eggs with salmonella or meat with ecoli on the shelves and wanting to halt that kind of behavior vs. trying to ban salt because it's "unhealthy" (which by the way is BS, salt is safe in the same way running is safe, it's generally good for everyone but some people may need to take some time off for injury or retire entirely due to injury and then hit the bike or the pool).

Even with that being said, if government regulation didn't exist companies would flood the market promoting their safety standards and trying to gain a competitive advantage. So yes, I could look at what's being offered and make my own decision. I certainly wouldn't by the no-name no-safety meat for myself or my family. This is reminsent of Volvo pushing safety innovations like airbags long before they were "regulated". They were offering airbags when others weren't and consumers had a choice. It's kind of like the completely ridiculous arguments people make against fast food with some claiming "it made me fat". It has no basis, if you don't like it or it's not good for you then don't eat it.

As far as people not knowing how to read a food label, I'm not sure what to say. The same FDA that continues to regulate everything to death also produces and publishes resources on how to read a food label:
http://www.fda.gov/food/labelingnutrition/consumerinformation/ucm078889.htm
I don't think I can think of a physician or friend who wouldn't help someone understand what a food label says if people would ask. But that would require some initiative and responsibility on the part of the consumer.

Edited by merlin2375 2010-04-21 2:25 PM

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

bradword - 2010-04-21 12:08 PM You're really comparing salt to salmonella and spoiled meat? Really?

LOL....no...it was an obvious illustration of how regulation already exists. At least I thought it was.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 2:25 PM

bradword - 2010-04-21 12:08 PM You're really comparing salt to salmonella and spoiled meat? Really?

LOL....no...it was an obvious illustration of how regulation already exists. At least I thought it was.

That's not regulation of the item. It's regulation of the STATE of the item (tainted). There is nothing tainted about sodium. Big difference.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 12:21 PM

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 3:01 PM The Government already regulates TONS of things that go into food products. So, if someone wants to put bad meat on the shelves...that's ok? It's your choice if you want to eat it right?

If someone wants to put eggs on the shelf with Salmonella that's ok...right? It's your choice to eat it.

There is a reasonable assertion that the food on the shelves is safe....the debate is whether or not stuffing food full of salt is safe. MOST people don't even know how to read a food label. Most have no idea how much salt is ok or healthy. Food processors know this and that's WHY there is too much salt in food.

I know we're not going to agree but that is OK. We can still share ideas.

I think a reasonable person can see and understand the difference between someone negligently putting eggs with salmonella or meat with ecoli on the shelves and wanting to halt that kind of behavior vs. trying to ban salt because it's "unhealthy" (which by the way is BS, salt is safe in the same way running is safe, it's generally good for everyone but some people may need to take some time off for injury or retire entirely due to injury and then hit the bike or the pool).

Even with that being said, if government regulation didn't exist companies would flood the market promoting their safety standards and trying to gain a competitive advantage. So yes, I could look at what's being offered and make my own decision. I certainly wouldn't by the no-name no-safety meat for myself or my family. This is reminsent of Volvo pushing safety innovations like airbags long before they were "regulated". They were offering airbags when others weren't and consumers had a choice. It's kind of like the completely ridiculous arguments people make against fast food with some claiming "it made me fat". It has no basis, if you don't like it or it's not good for you then don't eat it.

As far as people not knowing how to read a food label, I'm not sure what to say. The same FDA that continues to regulate everything to death also produces and publishes resources on how to read a food label:
http://www.fda.gov/food/labelingnutrition/consumerinformation/ucm078889.htm
I don't think I can think of a physician or friend who wouldn't help someone understand what a food label says if people would ask. But that would require some initiative and responsibility on the part of the consumer.

Sharing ideas is how we figure this stuff out and I'm all for it.

First, I just listed three studies that show too much salt is unhealthy.

Second, Just because there are resources for learning about nutrition doesn't mean people will learn about nutrition. I don't think I have been in a classroom that doesn't have a map of the world somewhere and yet students still completely suck at geography.

Also, and this is the biggest point. No one is infringing on YOUR personal liberties here. You can pile all the salt you want on your food. You can let it go bad. You can grow it yourself etc etc. What is proposed is monitoring and regulating the companies that sell food to the public. I think too much sodium in processed foods is a problem...obviously you do not. As some mentioned, if you want to eat low sodium food, you can do that. Well, how about we just start with low sodium food ( for the majority of the population that has no clue about nutrition ) and if YOU want to add more, go ahead. That just seems more practical to me....call me crazy.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

scoobysdad - 2010-04-21 12:29 PM

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 2:25 PM

bradword - 2010-04-21 12:08 PM You're really comparing salt to salmonella and spoiled meat? Really?

LOL....no...it was an obvious illustration of how regulation already exists. At least I thought it was.

That's not regulation of the item. It's regulation of the STATE of the item (tainted). There is nothing tainted about sodium. Big difference.

Yes...there is. But if you believe that food companies use the ignorance of the public to put unnecessary high levels of sodium in food for profit....well, I would say that needs to be regulated.

If you believe sodium has no affect on health...we can cease to continue with the discussion.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 1:14 PM

gearboy - 2010-04-21 12:47 PM No one is saying if you want salt that you can't add it. And if you do so, you will know how much salt you are consuming. The issue as I understand it is that if you DON'T want to have the salt, it is very difficult to avoid.

I haven't seen consumer packaging that doesn't list the salt content and percentage of daily value right on it.

I may not have worded this well. If you want to AVOID the salt, it is next to impossible to do so. The consumer packaging doesn't mean there is more or less of it - just tells you what is there. The regulations are about limiting the amounts that are therre. My post was responding to the idea of loving lots of salt. Anyone can add more salt if they want. There is no "black market" that will be formed, where you have to show ID and a current blood pressure to buy the salt. Keep pouring it on if you want.

On second thought, I will stick by my post. How many people are going to read the sodium content of the package, do the math to determine how many servings they are getting from that package, and caluclate out how much sodium they have taken in for the day? But I can quickly and easily see how much salt I have sprinkled on my food, without doing the math. Think of it as being like getting a power meter and a HRM to measure my exertion, versus going by perceived exertion. Sure the former is more accurate. But most people will find that to be overkill, and not bother, while ANYONE can do the latter.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 3:32 PM Sharing ideas is how we figure this stuff out and I'm all for it.

First, I just listed three studies that show too much salt is unhealthy.

Second, Just because there are resources for learning about nutrition doesn't mean people will learn about nutrition. I don't think I have been in a classroom that doesn't have a map of the world somewhere and yet students still completely suck at geography.

Also, and this is the biggest point. No one is infringing on YOUR personal liberties here. You can pile all the salt you want on your food. You can let it go bad. You can grow it yourself etc etc. What is proposed is monitoring and regulating the companies that sell food to the public. I think too much sodium in processed foods is a problem...obviously you do not. As some mentioned, if you want to eat low sodium food, you can do that. Well, how about we just start with low sodium food ( for the majority of the population that has no clue about nutrition ) and if YOU want to add more, go ahead. That just seems more practical to me....call me crazy.

Hypertension

According to one report (1) in the British Medical Journal, people who consume high amounts of salt are at risk of stroke and cardiovascular disease. The recent INTERSALT study measured the salt intake of over 10,000 people in 32 countries and found that a difference of just 6 grams of salt per day was found to result in a difference of systolic blood pressure of 10mm Hg and diastolic blood pressure of 5mm Hg for a 55 year old male or female. These figures suggest that a extra 6 grams of salt consumed daily can increase in the risk of heart disease by 21 percent and stroke by 34 percent.

Osteoporosis

Other researchers (2) have found that excess salt in the diet can lead to excessive calcium loss and thereby increase the risk of osteoporosis.

Stomach Cancer

Researchers from Leuven University in Holland reviewing the dietary habits of people from 24 different countries have discovered that a high intake of salt can significantly increase the risk of stomach cancer (3).

(1) Hanneman R. Intersalt: hypertension rise with age revisited. BMJ May 18 1996:312, 1283-1289.

(2) Cappuccio FP. Dietary prevention of osteoporosis: are we ignoring the evidence? American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. May 1996:63,787-788.

(3) Joossens JV et al. Dietary salt, nitrate and stomach cancer mortality in 24 countries. International Journal of Epidemiology. June 1996: 25(3) 494-502

First since you asked: I am calling you crazy!

Second, as far as the studies you posted, I have bolded and enlarged the parts that are relevant. I'm not sitting here munching on salt cubes as a snack as I type this post and I don't think anyone here is really saying that one can eat as much salt as they ever wanted without any ill health affect. That would be a ludicrous comment to make. The bottom line is people need to start looking in the mirror to find the person responsible for their salt intake (fat intake, caloric intake, exercise output, drinking/smoking choices, etc, etc, etc). As has been alluded to for most people salt intake just isn't a problem because they're either naturally ok, physically fit, or because they've already taken steps to lower their salt intake. Tell me where the FDA fits in. If salt were really an issue people would be demanding it from the market and companies would comply to stay competitive.

As far as individual liberty. As a consumer you are artificially taking away my choice eroding my ability to make any decision. You are eroding my responsiblity by trying to further the notion that "I don't have to look, someone else is". Last, you're eroding the ability of private individuals to form businesses in the private sector that sell products that people want and are willing to pay for. If you make a product no one wants, believe me, you'll know.

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Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 2:32 PM

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 12:21 PM

.

I know we're not going to agree but that is OK. We can still share ideas.

Sharing ideas is how we figure this stuff out and I'm all for it.

First, I just listed three studies that show too much salt is unhealthy.

Second, Just because there are resources for learning about nutrition doesn't mean people will learn about nutrition. I don't think I have been in a classroom that doesn't have a map of the world somewhere and yet students still completely suck at geography.

Also, and this is the biggest point. No one is infringing on YOUR personal liberties here. You can pile all the salt you want on your food. You can let it go bad. You can grow it yourself etc etc. What is proposed is monitoring and regulating the companies that sell food to the public. I think too much sodium in processed foods is a problem...obviously you do not. As some mentioned, if you want to eat low sodium food, you can do that. Well, how about we just start with low sodium food ( for the majority of the population that has no clue about nutrition ) and if YOU want to add more, go ahead. That just seems more practical to me....call me crazy.

I agree with you, and thanks for including the studies. That really bolsters your postition. I'm pre-hypertension and very aware of my sodium intake, so I think this may eventually give me more/better choices.Like you said, if people want saltier food, salt is cheap--add as much as you like.

And I disagree with an earlier post saying that salt is needed to preserve canned food like veggies. I buy canned veggies with no salt added. It's not the salt, it's the canning process that preserves them.

Master

1963

Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

gearboy - 2010-04-21 3:38 PM

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 1:14 PM

gearboy - 2010-04-21 12:47 PM No one is saying if you want salt that you can't add it. And if you do so, you will know how much salt you are consuming. The issue as I understand it is that if you DON'T want to have the salt, it is very difficult to avoid.

I haven't seen consumer packaging that doesn't list the salt content and percentage of daily value right on it.

I may not have worded this well. If you want to AVOID the salt, it is next to impossible to do so. The consumer packaging doesn't mean there is more or less of it - just tells you what is there. The regulations are about limiting the amounts that are therre. My post was responding to the idea of loving lots of salt. Anyone can add more salt if they want. There is no "black market" that will be formed, where you have to show ID and a current blood pressure to buy the salt. Keep pouring it on if you want.

On second thought, I will stick by my post. How many people are going to read the sodium content of the package, do the math to determine how many servings they are getting from that package, and caluclate out how much sodium they have taken in for the day? But I can quickly and easily see how much salt I have sprinkled on my food, without doing the math. Think of it as being like getting a power meter and a HRM to measure my exertion, versus going by perceived exertion. Sure the former is more accurate. But most people will find that to be overkill, and not bother, while ANYONE can do the latter.

I'm just not willing to concede that doing some simple math should be an excuse. Even the FDA gets its way and limits the amount of sodium, does that somehow absolve the individual of checking how much sodium they are eating? I guess the notion that "I don't have to pay attention someone else is" will just continue to grow, sadly. If we're going to take steps to take hard out of life then I don't want to work out anymore. Working out is hard especially on the days when I don't feel like it.

If salt is has been identified as an issue for an individual, then I don't see how hard it could possibly be for one to keep track of it. Many people have a TV show they can't MISS or the world will end, but counting salt is a challenge? The way you guys are talking about it, the Government should probably issue everyone their three squares a day to ensure compliance with the healthiest possible diet.

Master

2356

Westlake Village , Ca.

Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 12:44 PM

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 3:32 PM Sharing ideas is how we figure this stuff out and I'm all for it.

First, I just listed three studies that show too much salt is unhealthy.

Second, Just because there are resources for learning about nutrition doesn't mean people will learn about nutrition. I don't think I have been in a classroom that doesn't have a map of the world somewhere and yet students still completely suck at geography.

Also, and this is the biggest point. No one is infringing on YOUR personal liberties here. You can pile all the salt you want on your food. You can let it go bad. You can grow it yourself etc etc. What is proposed is monitoring and regulating the companies that sell food to the public. I think too much sodium in processed foods is a problem...obviously you do not. As some mentioned, if you want to eat low sodium food, you can do that. Well, how about we just start with low sodium food ( for the majority of the population that has no clue about nutrition ) and if YOU want to add more, go ahead. That just seems more practical to me....call me crazy.

Hypertension

According to one report (1) in the British Medical Journal, people who consume high amounts of salt are at risk of stroke and cardiovascular disease. The recent INTERSALT study measured the salt intake of over 10,000 people in 32 countries and found that a difference of just 6 grams of salt per day was found to result in a difference of systolic blood pressure of 10mm Hg and diastolic blood pressure of 5mm Hg for a 55 year old male or female. These figures suggest that a extra 6 grams of salt consumed daily can increase in the risk of heart disease by 21 percent and stroke by 34 percent.

Osteoporosis

Other researchers (2) have found that excess salt in the diet can lead to excessive calcium loss and thereby increase the risk of osteoporosis.

Stomach Cancer

Researchers from Leuven University in Holland reviewing the dietary habits of people from 24 different countries have discovered that a high intake of salt can significantly increase the risk of stomach cancer (3).

(1) Hanneman R. Intersalt: hypertension rise with age revisited. BMJ May 18 1996:312, 1283-1289.

(2) Cappuccio FP. Dietary prevention of osteoporosis: are we ignoring the evidence? American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. May 1996:63,787-788.

(3) Joossens JV et al. Dietary salt, nitrate and stomach cancer mortality in 24 countries. International Journal of Epidemiology. June 1996: 25(3) 494-502

First since you asked: I am calling you crazy!

Second, as far as the studies you posted, I have bolded and enlarged the parts that are relevant. I'm not sitting here munching on salt cubes as a snack as I type this post and I don't think anyone here is really saying that one can eat as much salt as they ever wanted without any ill health affect. That would be a ludicrous comment to make. The bottom line is people need to start looking in the mirror to find the person responsible for their salt intake (fat intake, caloric intake, exercise output, drinking/smoking choices, etc, etc, etc). As has been alluded to for most people salt intake just isn't a problem because they're either naturally ok, physically fit, or because they've already taken steps to lower their salt intake. Tell me where the FDA fits in. If salt were really an issue people would be demanding it from the market and companies would comply to stay competitive.

As far as individual liberty. As a consumer you are artificially taking away my choice eroding my ability to make any decision. You are eroding my responsiblity by trying to further the notion that "I don't have to look, someone else is". Last, you're eroding the ability of private individuals to form businesses in the private sector that sell products that people want and are willing to pay for. If you make a product no one wants, believe me, you'll know.

Cool...we'll just leave it at that. I just feel that not everything can be a personal choice. At some point, we as a society have to step in and say that some things are not OK. To me, this is simply protecting the public from devious business practices.

My Race Log

Master

2356

Westlake Village , Ca.

Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 12:50 PM

gearboy - 2010-04-21 3:38 PM

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 1:14 PM

gearboy - 2010-04-21 12:47 PM No one is saying if you want salt that you can't add it. And if you do so, you will know how much salt you are consuming. The issue as I understand it is that if you DON'T want to have the salt, it is very difficult to avoid.

I haven't seen consumer packaging that doesn't list the salt content and percentage of daily value right on it.

I may not have worded this well. If you want to AVOID the salt, it is next to impossible to do so. The consumer packaging doesn't mean there is more or less of it - just tells you what is there. The regulations are about limiting the amounts that are therre. My post was responding to the idea of loving lots of salt. Anyone can add more salt if they want. There is no "black market" that will be formed, where you have to show ID and a current blood pressure to buy the salt. Keep pouring it on if you want.

On second thought, I will stick by my post. How many people are going to read the sodium content of the package, do the math to determine how many servings they are getting from that package, and caluclate out how much sodium they have taken in for the day? But I can quickly and easily see how much salt I have sprinkled on my food, without doing the math. Think of it as being like getting a power meter and a HRM to measure my exertion, versus going by perceived exertion. Sure the former is more accurate. But most people will find that to be overkill, and not bother, while ANYONE can do the latter.

I'm just not willing to concede that doing some simple math should be an excuse. Even the FDA gets its way and limits the amount of sodium, does that somehow absolve the individual of checking how much sodium they are eating? I guess the notion that "I don't have to pay attention someone else is" will just continue to grow, sadly. If we're going to take steps to take hard out of life then I don't want to work out anymore. Working out is hard especially on the days when I don't feel like it.

If salt is has been identified as an issue for an individual, then I don't see how hard it could possibly be for one to keep track of it. Many people have a TV show they can't MISS or the world will end, but counting salt is a challenge? The way you guys are talking about it, the Government should probably issue everyone their three squares a day to ensure compliance with the healthiest possible diet.

Ok...one more comment...lol

I think the point is more protecting the public from underhanded and devious actions by food companies than regulating diet?? The point to me is people DON'T KNOW. No one is trying to regulate diet....they are trying to protect unaware from unintentionally harming themselves. Again, you can put as much salt as you want on your food...no one is saying that.

BTW...I think it is much easier to identify the difference between a donut and a carrot...it is much more difficult or less obvious I should say, to determine healthy sodium intake.

Edited by Fastyellow 2010-04-21 2:59 PM

My Race Log

Master

1963

Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

Fastyellow - 2010-04-21 3:53 PM Cool...we'll just leave it at that. I just feel that not everything can be a personal choice. At some point, we as a society have to step in and say that some things are not OK. To me, this is simply protecting the public from devious business practices.

As I said I knew we wouldn't agree and that's fine. I have to say, though:

I am deeply saddened that people don't even think you can make a choice anymore with regards to what you eat. And that people really think these "devious companies" are literally standing around a vat pouring salt by the truckload in for their "evil profits" and even though they are required to publish right on the back of the package what's in the product one still can't be bothered to look or worry about what they are putting in their bodies. I mean it's RIGHT there on the back of the package, not sure how more obvious it could be. There's nothing unintentional about driving to a super market, picking up a product, putting it in your cart, paying for it, going home and putting it in your mouth. My sadness is even more so because on a tri site where so many have decided to do something positive for their health by committing to training and racing for health reasons (get in shape, stay in shape, get in better shape, whatever) amongst many others, you'd think there would be a strong understanding of choice.

I've got to head over to the supermarket to get stock up on chips (that I only enjoy every so often, perhaps after a tough workout, because I know they aren't the greatest thing in the world for me) while they still have salt in them.

Subject: RE: Impeach the FDA

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 12:50 PM

gearboy - 2010-04-21 3:38 PM

merlin2375 - 2010-04-21 1:14 PM

gearboy - 2010-04-21 12:47 PM No one is saying if you want salt that you can't add it. And if you do so, you will know how much salt you are consuming. The issue as I understand it is that if you DON'T want to have the salt, it is very difficult to avoid.

I haven't seen consumer packaging that doesn't list the salt content and percentage of daily value right on it.

I may not have worded this well. If you want to AVOID the salt, it is next to impossible to do so. The consumer packaging doesn't mean there is more or less of it - just tells you what is there. The regulations are about limiting the amounts that are therre. My post was responding to the idea of loving lots of salt. Anyone can add more salt if they want. There is no "black market" that will be formed, where you have to show ID and a current blood pressure to buy the salt. Keep pouring it on if you want.

On second thought, I will stick by my post. How many people are going to read the sodium content of the package, do the math to determine how many servings they are getting from that package, and caluclate out how much sodium they have taken in for the day? But I can quickly and easily see how much salt I have sprinkled on my food, without doing the math. Think of it as being like getting a power meter and a HRM to measure my exertion, versus going by perceived exertion. Sure the former is more accurate. But most people will find that to be overkill, and not bother, while ANYONE can do the latter.

I'm just not willing to concede that doing some simple math should be an excuse. Even the FDA gets its way and limits the amount of sodium, does that somehow absolve the individual of checking how much sodium they are eating? I guess the notion that "I don't have to pay attention someone else is" will just continue to grow, sadly. If we're going to take steps to take hard out of life then I don't want to work out anymore. Working out is hard especially on the days when I don't feel like it.

If salt is has been identified as an issue for an individual, then I don't see how hard it could possibly be for one to keep track of it. Many people have a TV show they can't MISS or the world will end, but counting salt is a challenge? The way you guys are talking about it, the Government should probably issue everyone their three squares a day to ensure compliance with the healthiest possible diet.

Now you are talking! Just think how many children would benefit from this.

My Race Log

Impeach the FDA (Page 3)

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