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2008-09-09 2:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?
Daremo - 2008-09-09 1:03 PM

You mistook my line ... the reference to not being specifically peer reviewed was talking about the one I posted, not yours.  I've also never said that I don't trust the AAP.

All studies on it referenced are inconclusive at best, and I agree with Daniels that there is a time and place for distance running and training, and it is not in people that young.  My opinion and philosophy, take it or leave it.



Ah, I see, your article is not peer-reviewed and the one I reference is.

Right, ok, I guess we are on the same page you are entitled to your opinion whether based in reality or not. You believe it to be a problem - I do not. I think I'll side with the AAP peer-reviewed journal article on this issue as opposed to taking your learned opinion. Again, you can take it or leave it.

I do think the OP was looking for evidence not just an opinion. Opinions are a dime a dozen...


2008-09-09 2:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?
I agree, Rick.  I will obviously "parent her" very closely, but I knew I could get some good input here, and that is why I asked.  And, in fact, I got some very valuable information via the articles that have been posted, etc.
2008-09-09 2:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?
Daremo - 2008-09-09 10:28 AM

csibona - 2008-09-09 10:33 AM Right, the pre-teen's body is still growing, blah blah blah, but does exercise cause any issues with growth or growth plates? What evidence do you have that there is any harm in a well-designed running program?

At least, as far as I have found, in the peer-reviewed literature there does not appear a special concern. And, indeed, I realize that children are not just "small adults" and are different than adults in many ways.

You will never find any peer-reviewed studies on this topic because who would subject their child to the stresses needed to come up with any potential negative effects?  Sure, they might be able to compile some sort of record of excercise induced injuries, but even that would be questionable and easily refuted.  And no real conclusions could come from that as it is a broad thing to look at.

Let me ask you this ..... especially since you have been arguing the hell out of it.  do you have any children, and more specifically a daughter?  It is my feeling that that would have a large influence on the approach one would have to the subject.



Oh, yes, and, just to be clear, I did find a peer-reviewed article on the topic of whether children are capable of running a marathon without specific risk from the activity. And, really, your question about whether I have children was a distraction and a setup for an ad hominem attack.
2008-09-09 2:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?

Right, the pre-teen's body is still growing, blah blah blah, but does exercise cause any issues with growth or growth plates? What evidence do you have that there is any harm in a well-designed running program? It appears that you are really begging the question. As a pediatrician what does the American Academy of Pediatrics say about running and children? Perhaps running a half-marathon is moderate exercise. Yes, we all need to be conscious that people can have eating disorders but again I don't know why this is relevant in regards to whether a child should run a half-marathon. I'm not saying that running can not cause issues, but that these potential issues do not appear to have anything to do with age. The same issues that can occur with adults can occur with children and we all need to take care to listen to our bodies, follow best practice, etc. But these concerns are not "especially" important to children that should preclude them from exercise. At least, as far as I have found, in the peer-reviewed literature there does not appear a special concern. And, indeed, I realize that children are not just "small adults" and are different than adults in many ways.

Sorry, you forgot to quote the part where I said that he should talk to a sports medicine doc in addition to the pediatrician, since there isn't a lot of evidence one way or the other and they are the ones who have more experience dealing with this issue, and are more able to talk about the risks and benefits.  And eating disorders are absolutely relevant here.  If a 12 year old girl came to my practice wanting to run a half marathon I would want to make darned sure she wasn't doing it to lose weight excessively!  Of course we all need to listen to our bodies, but kids aren't as good at it, and we have to look out for them.  I never said that she shouldn't run it, just highlighted some of the potential concerns, and referred to a specialist with more experience.

2008-09-09 2:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?

 

csibona - 2008-09-09 3:32 Oh, yes, and, just to be clear, I did find a peer-reviewed article on the topic of whether children are capable of running a marathon without specific risk from the activity. And, really, your question about whether I have children was a distraction and a setup for an ad hominem attack.

Wow ... okay.  If you choose to perceive things that way, please feel free.  I felt that I have come across in this thread as even keel, non-confrontational and offering the opposite side.  Without belittling or resorting to any sort of "my side is better than yours."

And the point of bringing up the question of "do you have children" was for the only reason of that when you are a parent it can often have a strong influence of what one's stance will be on the topic and gives a better sense of where one's "argument" is coming from.  At no instance was it ever intended as an attack or planned attack.  What would be the point in that?????  This isn't slowtwitch and threads are not resolved by calling someone out as a d-ck or specifically trying to discredit others.  We are usually above that here ....... (although on certain topics I have been known to overstep being polite .... it happens).



Edited by Daremo 2008-09-09 2:42 PM
2008-09-09 3:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?
Daremo - 2008-09-09 1:40 PM
At no instance was it ever intended as an attack or planned attack.  What would be the point in that????? 



You're right I should have just left it at distraction. I apologize.


2008-09-09 3:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?

Having been a runner since the age of 12 (same age) please, let me offer my $0.2.

Growing up, I was extremely active, and therefore, very small, and lean.  Played soccer, ran around the neighborhood, and then took up cross country/track upon entering junior high (7th grade here in Buffalo Grove).  Junior high was great, and I have the awards, medals, etc. to prove it, I was pretty much the top runner for my junior high in each the 7th and 8th grade.

It was then time to move on to our high school, Buffalo Grove High School, which just so happened to be in the hardest, most competitive conference in the state, and for those of you from this area, that means contending with the likes of Palatine, Wheeling, Barrington and Hersey.  Those 4 were always consistently represented down at the state meets for both Cross Country and Track, all 4 years of my hs career.  Which meant, my team and I just tried that much harder to keep up with those top teams in the conference...not good!

My freshman year, I wanted so badly to still be the "top runner," for our high school, not caring if I was only a freshman or not.  I ran my butt off, no matter what it took, I wanted to be on the Varsity team (which, in the fall of 1992, it was practically unheard of for a freshman female to be on a varsity team).  But I did it, made Varsity, and I believe, to this day, am paying for it now in my 30's.

Earlier in my post I said that I was pretty small/lean, and believe me, I was so "far behind" the other girls, developmentally wise, that the extent of my "overtraining" by my coach, and me wanting to keep up with the other girls on my team and in the conference, helped create the injury I am still fighting today.

Freshman year conference meet, I was hauling azz into the finish (as we all do) and all of a sudden, it felt as though I had been stabbed.  Back then, I was told I had torn my oblique muscle, and while that very well may be the case, after the numerous doctors I have seen, most of them have agreed, that the combination of not getting a lot of time to let that heal, and the over training I did while my body was still maturing, were pretty detrimental in my still having stomach/hip issues today.

I wouldn't wish any of my stress/pain that this injury has cost me on anyone.

That's my story...I have several friends who I still keep in touch with from high school who choose not to run anymore because as they say, "Their body is just shot," so I guess I consider myself a lucky one...while I have days that are "bad" because of this injury, I consider myself lucky that I can still participate, after all these years, in something I love so much!  (And because I think I may finally be on my way to a permenant solution!! Fingers Crossed!)

With that, I am off to the specialist at UIC for a check up!

P.S. For shitz and giggles, here is a pic of me from HS, from the same race I got hurt in, this was about 5 minutes before.



Edited by miami9296 2008-09-09 4:00 PM
2008-09-09 8:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?

I heard this on NPR yesterday about girls and sports injuries. It refers mostly to soccer and not distance running, but I thought the information about the development of body structure and musculature  was really interesting.

Training May Curb Some Sports Injuries In Women

 



Edited by denny.l 2008-09-09 8:11 PM
2008-09-10 2:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?
Miami, thank you for your post. I think you quite clearly illustrate, through anecdote, what I said in my post.

Playing sports does not lead to the disastrously high rate of injury. Overtraining leads to the disastrously high rate of injury. I wish you well in finding a permanent solution.

To the OP, I think you made a good choice. I'd still say get thee and thine DD to a sports med doc just in case. If nothing else, it will give the doc a "healthy" baseline, should any injuries pop up.
2008-09-10 10:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?
momandmd - 2008-09-09 1:34 PM

Right, the pre-teen's body is still growing, blah blah blah, but does exercise cause any issues with growth or growth plates? What evidence do you have that there is any harm in a well-designed running program? It appears that you are really begging the question. As a pediatrician what does the American Academy of Pediatrics say about running and children? Perhaps running a half-marathon is moderate exercise. Yes, we all need to be conscious that people can have eating disorders but again I don't know why this is relevant in regards to whether a child should run a half-marathon. I'm not saying that running can not cause issues, but that these potential issues do not appear to have anything to do with age. The same issues that can occur with adults can occur with children and we all need to take care to listen to our bodies, follow best practice, etc. But these concerns are not "especially" important to children that should preclude them from exercise. At least, as far as I have found, in the peer-reviewed literature there does not appear a special concern. And, indeed, I realize that children are not just "small adults" and are different than adults in many ways.

Sorry, you forgot to quote the part where I said that he should talk to a sports medicine doc in addition to the pediatrician, since there isn't a lot of evidence one way or the other and they are the ones who have more experience dealing with this issue, and are more able to talk about the risks and benefits.  And eating disorders are absolutely relevant here.  If a 12 year old girl came to my practice wanting to run a half marathon I would want to make darned sure she wasn't doing it to lose weight excessively!  Of course we all need to listen to our bodies, but kids aren't as good at it, and we have to look out for them.  I never said that she shouldn't run it, just highlighted some of the potential concerns, and referred to a specialist with more experience.



Right, I didn't include the portion about seeing a sports medicine physician because I had no comment on it; it seems like good advice to me. I just want the original poster to know what the AAP says about the issue before he goes to a physician. It does appear that you "forgot" to answer any of the questions directed at your post - I'll highlight them here:

Does exercise cause any issues with growth or growth plates?
What evidence do you have that there is any harm in a well-designed running program?
As a pediatrician what does the American Academy of Pediatrics say about running and children?

My point about the eating disorder is that one should be concerned about *every* person who can have an eating disorder who takes up exercise - again, it has little to do with whether the person is a child or an adult. For example if I said, "if a *person* came to my practice wanting to run a half marathon I would want to make darn sure she wasn't doing it to lose weight excessively" would that materially change the discussion? I think not.

The question the OP has is whether there are specific concerns about a 12 year old training for a 1/2 marathon. To say that some people have difficulty with their knees or hips when training for a 1/2 marathon misses the point - those potential problems occur with both children and adults and are not of specific concern to children.
2008-09-10 1:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?

I'll try to address your specific questions below... 

 

Right, I didn't include the portion about seeing a sports medicine physician because I had no comment on it; it seems like good advice to me. I just want the original poster to know what the AAP says about the issue before he goes to a physician. -

- You had already referred to this statement.  The link is http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;119/6/1242#R4 in case people would like to read the whole thing. 

It does appear that you "forgot" to answer any of the questions directed at your post - I'll highlight them here:

Does exercise cause any issues with growth or growth plates? There are a limited number of studies so I don't think we know for sure, but a review by Caine et al in the British Journal of Sports Medicine (2006) found reason for concern: "Of particular concern is the growing number of stress related physeal [growth plate] injuries, including those affecting the lower extremities. Although most physeal injuries appeared to resolve with treatment and rest, there is also evidence of growth disturbance and deformity."

What evidence do you have that there is any harm in a well-designed running program? None, which is why I suggested a referral to someone who specializes in this.  I don't feel like there's enough evidence to make a recommendation either way,  only that there is reason to examine the issue more closely.

As a pediatrician what does the American Academy of Pediatrics say about running and children? See link above, as well as your summary in a previous post. Basically, that there's no evidence either way, but that a well designed program is probably OK.

My point about the eating disorder is that one should be concerned about *every* person who can have an eating disorder who takes up exercise - again, it has little to do with whether the person is a child or an adult.  For example if I said, "if a *person* came to my practice wanting to run a half marathon I would want to make darn sure she wasn't doing it to lose weight excessively" would that materially change the discussion? I think not. 

I disagree- the average age of onset of an eating disorder is 16 years-they are unusual in adults.  If a 65 year old came to me wanting to run, I would worry more about risk of heart attack and cardiovascular risk factors; a 12 year old girl is more likely to have an ED than MI. Fortunately she not likely to have an ED either, but it's my job to screen for it if a parent comes to me with teen or pre-teen wanting to do an intense exercise program. It can be an early red flag for a potentially devastating disease.

 

 



2008-09-10 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?

My brother did a marathon at 9!

I don't believe that 12 is too young for a 1/2.

I also think if you talk to 10 doctors they'll be split down the middle.  Talking to your GP isn't going to give you any answers.

I would search in medical publications for research on trauma caused on prolonged exercise (running) in kids this age.  Might be difficult to find studies though.

2008-09-10 3:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Is 12 years old too young to train for a 1/2 mary?

Something else to check is the race.  Many races do not allow runners under a certain age to run.  I have seen several half marathons that say youths 14->, but will not permit a younger runner to run.

I have a 12 year old daughter who trains with me.  She has run a 10K (twice) and a 5 mile race, both fairly slow (52:00 for the 5 mile, 1:15-1:20 for the 10K).  I take my daughter out on runs, but generally do not push her on the speed or distance. 

She likes to run, but I think she enjoys being with me more than she likes the running.  If my daughter asked me if she could train for and run a 13.1 mile race, I would tend to let her, but I will not ask her if she would LIKE to run it.  So what I mean by that is, if she asked without me suggesting I would likely not stop her.  However, I would also be very careful how she/we train.  I would also hope, that I would dig deeper into WHY she wants to run that race.  This would help me know that SHE is doing it for her, not to gain something from me.  Competitive parents (even AGers) can tend to give affirmation for things like this that their kids pick up on, they might think one way to gain dad's (mom's) praise is to race well.

So if she is wanting time with Dad, training with him may make sense.  So I would check to see what the motivation is, and make sure she really wants to train/race and not just be with dad.  Something that could be done while riding a bike beside dad while he is running.  (something else I have my sons and daughter do).

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