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Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool (Page 3)
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 2012-01-12 2:18 PM in reply to: #3986810 |
Expert  2547    The Woodlands, TX |  Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the poolH20 Killer - 2012-01-12 2:03 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:42 PM H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 1:08 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:02 PM That 9 year old girl who can whip your tail gets about a tenth of the instruction and about ten times the volume. The volume and therefore muscle failure, creates efficiencies. The coach spot checks and provides input. Um, not at good USA Swimming clubs. We have two coaches, sometimes three, on deck for every workout group, which are normally less than 30 swimmers. There is an enormous amount of instruction at top level AG clubs.
My bad. I have no experience at any good USA Swimming clubs. As a result, my stroke is horrible and my times are crap. Thanks for pointing that out.
You could post a video of yourself winning a race, or have someone do it for you. Wait, you already did that. ha! well played. You could do the same...oh wait, you always disappear whenever anyone questions your ability or pedigree. |
| 2012-01-12 2:53 PM in reply to: #3986843 |
Extreme Veteran 458 | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool tjfry - 2012-01-12 2:18 PM H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 2:03 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:42 PM H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 1:08 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:02 PM That 9 year old girl who can whip your tail gets about a tenth of the instruction and about ten times the volume. The volume and therefore muscle failure, creates efficiencies. The coach spot checks and provides input. Um, not at good USA Swimming clubs. We have two coaches, sometimes three, on deck for every workout group, which are normally less than 30 swimmers. There is an enormous amount of instruction at top level AG clubs.
My bad. I have no experience at any good USA Swimming clubs. As a result, my stroke is horrible and my times are crap. Thanks for pointing that out.
You could post a video of yourself winning a race, or have someone do it for you. Wait, you already did that. ha! well played. You could do the same...oh wait, you always disappear whenever anyone questions your ability or pedigree. For the tenth time, what do you want to know? I've sent you a private message on this topic at least twice. I have no pedigree at all, FYI. |
| 2012-01-12 3:09 PM in reply to: #3986936 |
Pro 6011  Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 3:53 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 2:18 PM H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 2:03 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:42 PM H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 1:08 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:02 PM That 9 year old girl who can whip your tail gets about a tenth of the instruction and about ten times the volume. The volume and therefore muscle failure, creates efficiencies. The coach spot checks and provides input. Um, not at good USA Swimming clubs. We have two coaches, sometimes three, on deck for every workout group, which are normally less than 30 swimmers. There is an enormous amount of instruction at top level AG clubs.
My bad. I have no experience at any good USA Swimming clubs. As a result, my stroke is horrible and my times are crap. Thanks for pointing that out.
You could post a video of yourself winning a race, or have someone do it for you. Wait, you already did that. ha! well played. You could do the same...oh wait, you always disappear whenever anyone questions your ability or pedigree. For the tenth time, what do you want to know? I've sent you a private message on this topic at least twice. I have no pedigree at all, FYI. Honestly? For all your posting about how fast you are, and how everyone else has no clue what they're doing, I'm curious just how fast you are. Do you/did you swim D1? NCAA All American? Olympic Trials? For all anyone knows, you could struggle to go under :55 in a 100 FR like the average high school swimmer, or swim an 8:00 500. (not that it's necessary to swim fast to know what you're talking about, because your advice is often spot on, but your posts always send a very clear message that you want everyone to view you as an Olympic-caliber swimmer) I know this is OT, and I'm truly just curious whether you're as good as you say you are. Not trying to fan the flames.
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| 2012-01-12 3:10 PM in reply to: #3986936 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 2:53 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 2:18 PM H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 2:03 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:42 PM H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 1:08 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 1:02 PM That 9 year old girl who can whip your tail gets about a tenth of the instruction and about ten times the volume. The volume and therefore muscle failure, creates efficiencies. The coach spot checks and provides input. Um, not at good USA Swimming clubs. We have two coaches, sometimes three, on deck for every workout group, which are normally less than 30 swimmers. There is an enormous amount of instruction at top level AG clubs.
My bad. I have no experience at any good USA Swimming clubs. As a result, my stroke is horrible and my times are crap. Thanks for pointing that out.
You could post a video of yourself winning a race, or have someone do it for you. Wait, you already did that. ha! well played. You could do the same...oh wait, you always disappear whenever anyone questions your ability or pedigree. For the tenth time, what do you want to know? I've sent you a private message on this topic at least twice. I have no pedigree at all, FYI. So I let it hang out there for everyone to pick apart and you want to whisper in my ear? We are hijacking this thread like nobody's business...
Back to the original topic: Great analogy, although admittedly light hearted, remember the Karate Kid? That kid washed cars, painted fences, waxed on, waxed off until he couldn't lift his arms anymore. Not because it was the perfect form, but because it was a similar motion that built the correct muscles. Once he did all of that then Mr. Miagi taught him how to fight. So my advice would be to go paint the fence. |
 2012-01-12 3:10 PM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2012-01-12 3:12 PM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2012-01-12 3:12 PM |
| 2012-01-12 3:14 PM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool . . . or Laure Manaudou. That would be totally hot.
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| 2012-01-12 3:17 PM in reply to: #3986966 |
| Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool tjfry - 2012-01-12 4:10 PM Great analogy, although admittedly light hearted, remember the Karate Kid? That kid washed cars, painted fences, waxed on, waxed off until he couldn't lift his arms anymore. Not because it was the perfect form, but because it was a similar motion that built the correct muscles. Once he did all of that then Mr. Miagi taught him how to fight. So my advice would be to go paint the fence. At some point, Elisabeth Shue should be involved.
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| 2012-01-12 3:18 PM in reply to: #3986974 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool |
| 2012-01-12 3:18 PM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool |
| 2012-01-12 3:23 PM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2012-01-12 3:27 PM in reply to: #3986980 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool |
| 2012-01-12 3:32 PM in reply to: #3986987 |
| Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool Goosedog - 2012-01-12 3:17 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 4:10 PM Great analogy, although admittedly light hearted, remember the Karate Kid? That kid washed cars, painted fences, waxed on, waxed off until he couldn't lift his arms anymore. Not because it was the perfect form, but because it was a similar motion that built the correct muscles. Once he did all of that then Mr. Miagi taught him how to fight. So my advice would be to go paint the fence. At some point, Elisabeth Shue should be involved.
Oh, yes, but I want the Elisabeth Shue from Cocktail, not the Karate Kid. MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm |
| 2012-01-12 3:36 PM in reply to: #3986962 |
| Extreme Veteran 458 | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool TriMyBest - 2012-01-12 3:09 PMFor all anyone knows, you could struggle to go under :55 in a 100 FR like the average high school swimmer, or swim an 8:00 500. (not that it's necessary to swim fast to know what you're talking about, because your advice is often spot on, but your posts always send a very clear message that you want everyone to view you as an Olympic-caliber swimmer) A sub :55 100 free/8:00 500 is still faster than 99.9999% of triathletes. No D1, no OT, no pedigree as I said. I go sub 18:10 1650 and sub 10:45 1000 and sub 5:15 500. That's not fast but fast enough for a mid 40s guy. Oh, and FYI, I officiate a bunch of high school meets. The average high schooler isn't going sub 55, only the year rounders on the team. |
| 2012-01-12 3:57 PM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Member 448 Clemson, SC | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool Are you talking about "this TJ Fry character who we don't know to much about other than he is a very strong swimmer"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ3bWEwghDI&feature=player_embedded |
| 2012-01-12 4:00 PM in reply to: #3987026 |
| Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 3:36 PM TriMyBest - 2012-01-12 3:09 PMFor all anyone knows, you could struggle to go under :55 in a 100 FR like the average high school swimmer, or swim an 8:00 500. (not that it's necessary to swim fast to know what you're talking about, because your advice is often spot on, but your posts always send a very clear message that you want everyone to view you as an Olympic-caliber swimmer) A sub :55 100 free/8:00 500 is still faster than 99.9999% of triathletes. No D1, no OT, no pedigree as I said. I go sub 18:10 1650 and sub 10:45 1000 and sub 5:15 500. That's not fast but fast enough for a mid 40s guy. Oh, and FYI, I officiate a bunch of high school meets. The average high schooler isn't going sub 55, only the year rounders on the team. I go 7:00 for 500 and there's a bunch of Triathletes in my LOCAL races ahead of me. I would say the number is more like 80%. |
| 2012-01-12 4:05 PM in reply to: #3987026 |
| Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 4:36 PM Thanks for being forthright. Nice times for an old guy. TriMyBest - 2012-01-12 3:09 PMFor all anyone knows, you could struggle to go under :55 in a 100 FR like the average high school swimmer, or swim an 8:00 500. (not that it's necessary to swim fast to know what you're talking about, because your advice is often spot on, but your posts always send a very clear message that you want everyone to view you as an Olympic-caliber swimmer) A sub :55 100 free/8:00 500 is still faster than 99.9999% of triathletes. No D1, no OT, no pedigree as I said. I go sub 18:10 1650 and sub 10:45 1000 and sub 5:15 500. That's not fast but fast enough for a mid 40s guy. Oh, and FYI, I officiate a bunch of high school meets. The average high schooler isn't going sub 55, only the year rounders on the team.  (I'm an old 40-something too) |
| 2012-01-12 4:06 PM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool I think I'm getting diminishing returns from continuing to read this thread....... |
| 2012-01-12 5:11 PM in reply to: #3987026 |
| 92 | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool H20 Killer - 2012-01-12 4:36 PM TriMyBest - 2012-01-12 3:09 PMFor all anyone knows, you could struggle to go under :55 in a 100 FR like the average high school swimmer, or swim an 8:00 500. (not that it's necessary to swim fast to know what you're talking about, because your advice is often spot on, but your posts always send a very clear message that you want everyone to view you as an Olympic-caliber swimmer) A sub :55 100 free/8:00 500 is still faster than 99.9999% of triathletes. No D1, no OT, no pedigree as I said. I go sub 18:10 1650 and sub 10:45 1000 and sub 5:15 500. That's not fast but fast enough for a mid 40s guy. Oh, and FYI, I officiate a bunch of high school meets. The average high schooler isn't going sub 55, only the year rounders on the team. hey h2o, i'm wondering if people realize how good those times are... big time props!!! |
| 2012-01-12 5:51 PM in reply to: #3986992 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool mrbbrad - 2012-01-12 2:18 PM Fred D - 2012-01-12 4:12 PM Or Johnny Weissmuller.... Or Maureen O'Sullivan ..or Swimfan from ST. |
| 2012-01-12 6:28 PM in reply to: #3987256 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2012-01-14 7:23 AM in reply to: #3987021 |
| 34 | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool tjfry - 2012-01-12 3:32 PM Goosedog - 2012-01-12 3:17 PM tjfry - 2012-01-12 4:10 PM Great analogy, although admittedly light hearted, remember the Karate Kid? That kid washed cars, painted fences, waxed on, waxed off until he couldn't lift his arms anymore. Not because it was the perfect form, but because it was a similar motion that built the correct muscles. Once he did all of that then Mr. Miagi taught him how to fight. So my advice would be to go paint the fence. At some point, Elisabeth Shue should be involved.
Oh, yes, but I want the Elisabeth Shue from Cocktail, not the Karate Kid. MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm no no....Elisabeth Shue from The Saint or the one with Nicolas Cage...mmmmmmmmmm.... |
| 2012-01-14 8:43 AM in reply to: #3982735 |
| Veteran 459 Indiana | Subject: RE: Diminishing returns while fatigued in the pool This makes me grateful for the coach of my tri group. Each swim workout will have three or more options for the main set, so swimmers of different ability can choose a set that is appropriately challenging to them. I do believe there is benefit to swimming to major fatigue, but also feel there are benefits to having a whole workout with good form the entire time. It doesn't have to be either/or - you can do one thing one time and one thing another. My experience is that swimming is most form-dependent; it's losing proposition to try to overcome poor technique with more power. One thing I've done when I have chosen a set that is a bit over my head is to take one lap of rest - for instance if it's supposed to be 3 x 300, I will do 300 for the first and last one but sit out a lap and just do 250 for the middle one. Sometimes that extra bit of recovery time is all it takes to be able to recover proper technique. I would run this question past your coach. Part of it might depend on how badly your technique is breaking down. He might be able to help you make the call when you're crossing the line into nonproductive. |
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