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2012-11-01 8:45 AM
in reply to: #4478150

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Subject: RE: $500 trillion tax cut
trinnas - 2012-11-01 8:08 AM

Can someone please explain to me how "they can afford it" somehow magically makes taking things from some people to give to other people fair?

i agree 100%!  i'm so sick of hearing that something should/shouln't be done becuase "they" can "afford" it, or that rich people are "getting rich at the expense of others", or claiming that something is "fair".

rich, poor, or somewhere in the middle...the govt has no right to make laws based on those words.



2012-11-01 8:50 AM
in reply to: #4478132

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Subject: RE: $500 trillion tax cut
Brock Samson - 2012-11-01 6:58 AM

One of the saddest things to happen to America is the divisiness that support of political parties has created amoungst the populace.  Make no mistake, this divisiness is not a mistake, it is not something that those that control political parties disfavor, to the contrary, the divisiness of political party support is something that those in power count on in order to maintain their power base.

Our political discourse has become nothing more than college football mentality.  You route for your favorite team and you hate everything about your in-state rival.  So too our political system has become as it relates to support of whatever political party we most associate ourselves with.

This notion is nothing new, I certainly am not smart enough or clever enough to have thought of it, or observed it as an original theoretical prospective.  It is something that our earliest leaders knew and warned us of.  In fact our very first President, warned of the dangers of factions and parties in his Farewell Address of 1796.

I give you a small quote from President Washington's farewell address: "

"...I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the government and serve to keep alive the spirit of liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in governments of a monarchical cast, patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume."

Now my ending comments:  UNtil we as Americans DEMAND the destruction of the political parties that dominate our State and Local governments, the political parties that revel in seeing the voters at each others throats over the stance of the other political party, we shall all never have a real choice in our elections.  More and More the candidates through their political parties do not set out their own goals or own solutions to problems but rather simply espouse the inefficiencies with the other parties ideology.  Ideologies that when placed into practice are so similar as to almost be indistinguishable.

Through parties, those that govern pit Americans against each other, solely to the benefit of those in power.  And even more freightening, those in power may not be the elected officials but rather the individuals that run the political parties in backroom deals.

 

Preach it! 

2012-11-01 12:14 PM
in reply to: #4478150

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Subject: RE: $500 trillion tax cut
trinnas - 2012-11-01 6:08 AM

Can someone please explain to me how "they can afford it" somehow magically makes taking things from some people to give to other people fair?

Our country has been adopting more and more Socialists/Communists principals and ideals since the adoption of Social Security and that is what Socialists believe.

 

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

 

 

2012-11-01 1:03 PM
in reply to: #4470900

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Subject: RE: $500 trillion tax cut

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" - Margret Thatcher.

None of us are going to change CD's mind about the rich not paying higher taxes (or that Axl Rose was one of the most over hyped lead singers ever).

All I can say is that we as a country are reaching a tipping point where the takers are going to start to outweigh the makers (and if Obama wins this election I fear that tipping point will happen soon).  I get so sick of everyone who has been successful in this country being on the hook to pay for those who are not bothering to try.

We have laws and programs in place to help those who truly need help, who are disabled or who have fallen into some temporary bad luck.  Those programs work. 

What we do not have in place, and we SHOULD NOT have in place, is the plan to take money from those who are successful and give it to those who are not trying.  Call me heartless but I bust my butt everyday to earn what I do.  No one is taking that from me and giving it to those who don't try as hard.


2012-11-01 2:37 PM
in reply to: #4477994

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Subject: RE: $500 trillion tax cut
ChineseDemocracy - 2012-10-31 11:19 PM
powerman - 2012-11-01 12:41 AM
ChineseDemocracy - 2012-10-31 10:12 PM
powerman - 2012-10-31 11:51 PM
ChineseDemocracy - 2012-10-31 9:45 PM
Birkierunner - 2012-10-31 9:31 AM
ChineseDemocracy -

 I'm pretty sure we can respectfully agree to disagree on giving the highest earning 120,000 families in the United States a $500 billion giveaway.  I don't think it's right....and a majority of Americans don't believe it's right either.

Why do you insist on calling this a "giveaway" ?  You make it sound like money is being taken from the U.S. coffers and a check is being written out to each of these 120,000 families.   The money is already in their pockets......they earned it (and I'm sure some will squabble over that)....its their income.  The argument is how much the government wants to take out of their pocket.  The government isn't "giving" ANYTHING away.

Why do I call it a giveaway?  12 years ago, the wealthiest Americans alive paid a higher % in income tax.  I'm sorry, we've got a deficit.  Raising revenue and cutting spending is how I balance my budget at home.  

I tell ya what...I will support trickle-down economics when I see it actually working.  How do I do that?  I look at the overall economy but more importantly, how much the wealth accretes to the top.  If it's trending into the pockets of the wealthy at the expense of the middle class and poor (like it has been) sorry, I'm not supporting it.  

And 12 years ago... so did you. So why are you not proposing to raise your rates? And really... you feel 35% of one's income is not progressive enough... 40% is the magic number that is going to save the country?

So are you willing to pay 5% more income tax?

The wealthiest Americans can afford it.  They paid much more in the past.  Am I willing to pay more, yes.  I never said raising that to 40% would "save the country."  Please don't put words in my mouth.  

Since GW Bush's tax cuts of '01, '03...the money has not trickled down.  It just hasn't.  I don't believe we should let our country become a plutocracy.  We need a thriving middle class to be successful.  Giving gigantic tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans (especially in a tough economy) just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Well the rate from Clinton was 40%, but now the rate for the wealthiest is 35%. Bush tax cuts also cut middle class rates. those tax cuts have been critisized by Dems every since he did them... yet they have upheld them every since they expired. Obama too. Giving tax breaks at all in a tough economy does not make any sense at all... yet Obama has done that every time the BTC came up for expiration.

If it is such a no brainer, then why does Obama just not push for all Bush tax cuts to expire?

I just fail to see how anyone can claim with a straight face 40% of a person's income is "their fair share", when the rest of the country refuses to give up their sweet cuts, and 47% of the country does not pay taxes.  Because after all... 35% of a persons income, is just completely out of line when 47% of the country is depending on them.Undecided

I'll tell you why...because it's actually lower than what it was for over 50 years!  The tax vacation for the wealthy started about 10 years ago...how's that working for us?  Will allowing the tax cuts for the wealthy to expire alone solve the problem?  No.  Is it a step in the right direction.  Yes.  Sorry, I just don't believe that $500 billion (it's actually a little more than $500 billion by the way) will trickle down.  It didn't over the last 10 years, why will it in the future?

btw, I agree with President Obama, I don't believe the other 98% should have their taxes raised.  btw, I have a feeling a majority of the 98% agree with me.

 

Good grief... two wars and a huge increase in government spending happened about 10 years ago too... how's that working for us.

the wealthy "paying a little more" does absolutely NOTHING to fix our problems. Raising taxes on EVERYONE is a start. allowing the BTC to expire is a step in the right direction... and HUGE cut in government spending is the other foot. If you do not move both feet, you get no where. We are going nowhere. The problem isn't the rich are not paying enough, the problem is the government is spending more than it is bringing in. That is the problem.

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