Do you believe? (Page 3)

dontracy - 2013-01-28 7:11 PM

ChineseDemocracy - I would never dream of proclaiming my belief is right for anybody else...and it would be nice if org. religions did the same...but that doesn't exactly drum up #'s/followers/$$$'s.  

Why would anyone believe something if it's not right?

If you do truly believe that God does not exist,
then if you love me you ought to be convincing me of that,
even if that way is to be charitable, kind, and have a sense of humor about it.

Think about it.

If you love someone, and by that I mean will the good for them for their own end,
and you think they're living a life built on a fantasy,
don't you have some moral obligation to address that with them? 

1:  To answer the "why would anyone believe something if it's not right question...my answer is simple.  People are unique.  What's "right" for me, may not be "right" for you, or anyone else.

2:  I wouldn't try to convince you God doesn't exist...because I can't.  No human can prove a god does or multiple gods do exist.  btw, I'll always be kind and have a sense of humor (even if it is a bit inappropriate at times, but I try to see the light side of everything...laughter is a great thing!)  My like for the "charitable" part is why I'm a Democrat!  Ha, just kidding.  

3:  I don't believe I have a moral obligation to tell people how to live.  If I see a person in a burning building, I will do what I can to save them.  I just got off the phone with an insurance agent because I was the only person at an intersection about 3 weeks ago that gave contact info. as a witness to a bad accident.  It was the right thing to do to ensure the wrong-doer didn't try to screw the victim.  I totally believe in "doing unto others as you'd have done to you."  A big part of that is protecting those who can't protect themselves. 

As for telling someone their "life is built on a fantasy," I'd only do that if the "fantasy" was doing harm to them or others and I thought I could actually make a difference.  I don't believe in going through the motions, looking good to others for doing "what's right."  I'm too practical I guess.

  ...btw, I love this topic.  

OP has been here 3 years. "Only 241 posts" just means little time in CoJ and probably no time in TAN. This boosts his credibility considerably, IMHO.

You'd think after 3 years the OP would know not to post a poll about religion in Tri Talk, which is where he originally posted this. This decreases his credibility considerably, IMHO.

One posting on BT primarily for triathlon purposes (I know, hard for the CoJ denizens to fathom) might not know, remember or care that CoJ exists. Credibility regained.

ChineseDemocracy -   ...btw, I love this topic.  

I know.
And you are a kind person.

Several people here dumping on "organized" religion.
Of course, there is no such thing as "disorganized" religion.
A religion by its nature is "organized". That's what religion is.

I understand that people have wounds from religion
or feel for others who have wounds from religion.

More than plenty of wounds to go around inflicted by secular humanism too. 

It's fairly easy to show historically that in the West at least,
religion has been the single most important driving force for good. 

It's also fairly easy to show that there is a higher probability that God exists
than that he doesn't.
Start with the question of why there is something rather than nothing.
Worth thinking about.

His was a poor lost soul, but now he's found COJ. Hallelujah! Can I get an Amen, Brothers and Sisters?

you are correct.  One cannot logically prove that god does not exist (Bertran Russell's teapot).  However- Few atheists would fit your description.  I believe even Richard Dawkins himself admits that there is some possibility of some type of intelligent/powerful deity.  However that possibility is extremely small.  There is NO possibility of the creation story being at all true.

dontracy - 2013-01-28 6:54 PM

ChineseDemocracy -   ...btw, I love this topic.  

I know.
And you are a kind person.

Several people here dumping on "organized" religion.
Of course, there is no such thing as "disorganized" religion.
A religion by its nature is "organized". That's what religion is.

I understand that people have wounds from religion
or feel for others who have wounds from religion.

More than plenty of wounds to go around inflicted by secular humanism too. 

It's fairly easy to show historically that in the West at least,
religion has been the single most important driving force for good. 

It's also fairly easy to show that there is a higher probability that God exists
than that he doesn't.
Start with the question of why there is something rather than nothing.
Worth thinking about.

 

Eh.....I was raised Catholic, spent all my schooling through high school in Catholic schools, and then watched priests and brothers from those schools get indicted for sexual abuse....7 of them over the years.  The funny thing about it, and this was the late 70's, all of us were told to stay away from those abusers by other lay teachers, parents, and other members of the church and the Order from which these priests and brothers came from.  They all knew those men were dangerous, nothing was done.  They literally abused hundreds of kids (not together, just over the years) while people pretended it wasn't happening.

I was shocked, later in life to see some of the names of the abused....quite a few of them people I had known as we grew up.  One committed suicide, another died in an alcohol fueled auto accident.

Later in my own life I had occasions to investigate other priests and brothers for the same allegations....the Catholic Church was NEVER, in my opinion as an investigator, forthcoming and helpful in regards to our questions.....everything was about minimizing the damage to the Church. I have also had occasion to be part of investigations into embezzlement and other crimes committed at other churches and within other religions.....I found them just as willing to do anything to keep those crimes or allegations secret.

I guess you could say I am "dumping" on organized religion....it's just that I've seen first hand what a religious organization can and will do to keep itself propped up in the public eye.  I ended up being disgusted with all of it.  

As I said, I am absolutely a believer and my faith is strong.....but I want nothing to do with organized religion.

Just because it's Bear, credibility lost.

THIS!  THIS is the reason for the not renewing BT membership post.   I have very strong opinions on the original topic, but none I would want to post here.  Quite honestly my opinions on religion are personal, as are everyone else's opinions.  However, if I chose to participate in this thread I am certain that my opinions would be disregarded because my screen name is not known and my post counts are not high (although I have been around and active for a long while).  

The rest of my rant belongs in the "what's wrong with BT membership post" so I will stop.  

I kind of like that comparison actually.  It's something to think about.

Not true.  Look at the quoted post where the OP was discredited for 'only' having 240 posts.  

But, you're not the OP.

Well played, but.................

Apparently not, since that has never seemed so obvious. To me, at least.

It's easy if you believe. But then, you are already there, right? On the other hand, looking at all the crap one see's in the world, both today and historically, that is as good an argument as one can find that there is no God whatsoever.

Not trying to get into an argument with you, just responding to two specific statements. Personally, I believe that there is no god, but I am willing to accept that there is no way for me to know this for sure, one way or the other.

Every organization acts in this manner. Teacher unions do it, police departments do it, Bar Associations do it, etc.

How do you explain your conscience? Why do you have one?  That's the tipping point for me.  Not being argumentative, just asking because it's the part of human existence that I find unable to explain.  Overwhelmingly we do the right thing.....but why?

I have seen the other side plenty.....and to me, it's Godless, and evil.  And for me, if there is an evil power, and I'm sure there is, then there has to be a power of goodness.  It can't just come from man, or we'd all just do for ourselves, and my life experiences don't fit with that.  I see goodness in most people everywhere I look.

I don't. Never was too concerned about why I try to do the right thing. Had a discussion with my father on this topic once, when he said that everyone does things for their own self interest. When I asked about the times you do the right thing with no personal benefit, his answer was that the personal benefit was the good feeling I have. I can see his point, but don't necessarily agree.

I just do the right thing, as I see it, because that is what one should do, as far as I am concerned. And also because I am trying to teach my kids to act in this manner, by personal example.

I agree, but why?  What makes you think "that is what one should do"?  I agree with you, but I have come to the conclusion that I do that because a power greater than me (call it whatever you want) has put that goodness in me.  

That idea grows every time I see evil.....and I have sat across the table from people who are absolutely evil, with no conscience......none.  I can't rectify what I have seen in them through their life experiences, because I have seen way more people who had the same experiences try to do good in their life.

It's just not hard for me to believe there is a power greater than man......really, for me, it just comes down to "of course there is".....or none of this would be worth a damn....including my conscience.

In my case, and this is specific to me, of course, I think it was my reading material. I grew up pretty much a loner, but read a lot, an average of a book a day. Liked westerns, where the hero always does the right thing (and gets the girl, so obviously not totally accurate...), and many other books with the same message. Lets face it, most books don't go around with a message of doing the wrong thing, right?

One of the problems I always had with religion was the message that when good happened, or was done, that is a sign of god in action, but evil is man's weakness.  In my opinion, if "god" takes the credit for the good, s/he ought to be responsible enough to take the blame when things go wrong. Same as I would expect from my kids, or anyone else.

I think God gave man free will......you can do good or evil, but you choose good, why?  

There were cowboys who raped and pillaged......they just didn't get wrote about.  Who wants to read that?  Right?

There is plenty I don't understand.  I watched my godson die of leukemia at the age of 7....that's hard to come to terms with in regard to a "good" God...no argument from me there.  I'd like to think I'll get an answer to that.....again, it makes no sense to me that I won't...all of this emotion we all carry around is useless if there is nothing.  There's no way it's useless.....that makes NO sense to me.