Cycling Program v3.0 - 2010 - 2011 (Page 32)

GoFaster - 2011-02-11 11:54 AM  

So this raises a couple of more questions for me (and thank you for taking the time to explain this).

How do you know when you should take a break?  Taking a break makes sense, but at the same time I'm very motivated to keep working to increase my CP.  I've got some specific goals I'd like to accomplish this year.  I understand that you need to allow the body and mind some time to recover, I just want to try and avoid "losing" what I've worked for over the past 4 months.

So if I take your first suggestion, but take the next 3 weeks as unstructured, and ride 2-3x per week at 75-80% - will I maintain my gains thus far, or should I include at least one CP workout?  (Still have the final 3min test this weekend)  From there, jump back into week 7, which should take me to week 14 of the winter program, and then transition to your 20 week HIM plan.

jsiegs - 2011-02-11 5:02 PM 
Jorge, don't listen to them.  I just finished my weeks of 6x4's and tested.  I'm up 25 Watts over last test, to 293 W FTP.  You don't suck, but I may be in love with you!  j/k.  But seriously, my 20 min power made huge jumps but my 3 min much smaller, is that what you expected after the 6x4's?  Seeing as they were done at 20MP, I'm guessing yes.   After talking with people, I don't think either 20 min test was perfectly executed, but good enough I suppose (left too much in the tank for the last 5 min this last time). 

JorgeM - 2011-02-14 11:47 AM

Yes. There are different ways to et up a cycling plan to try improving your critical power:

- Some focus on 'pushing it from far below' by doing a lot of endurance training (volume at low intensities) which can take a long time to do so and the results can be a hit and miss.

- Others focus on 'pushing it from below', that is focusing on tempo sessions also called "sweet spot" training. his can be a good method but still, it requires increasing the load via volume.

- Others focus 'pushing it from the middle', that is doing a lot of sets at/near your critical power. This tend to yield great results because is very specific training.

- Another way is to 'pull it from the top', that is doing sets above your CP focusing on 20MP, VO2max and even anaerobic trainig (i.e. tabatas or HIIT)

- *my* way (which is not the best way, just what I think works better for AGers) is to approach it by mixing the training load (volume + intensity) and periodirized the focus of the different adaptations. The 1st part after the preparation phase(get you in 'shape') was to focus on "pulling it from above" by improving your VO2max power which roughly relates to your 5MP. This is important because it sets your virtual power ceiling. That is, in theory, the higher your 5MP, the more room you'll have to bring your CP closer to it.

In that phase is were your 3MP showed the greater improvements because this is related to your anaerobic work capacity, or the amount of work you can do without relaying as much on your aerobic system. While important for a better general fitness improvement and some adaptations (i.e. neuromuscular), the goal to improve it is short as our bodies adapt fast and this won't really be a determinant for our sustainable power. Think of it as setting the stage for your power improvements.

Then we move to continue "pulling your CP from above" by focusing on your 20MP, this while still an intensity higher than your CP relies less on anaerobic capacity and more on aerobic. The reason I think is important is because it provides another dimension of adaptations and teaches the athlete push out of the comfort zone and deal will very intense sets.

Later we move to "pushing it from the middle" where the focus is doing sets at your CP which is the main important performance factor for endurance cycling. That is, the greater your CP, the greater your sustainable power should be if you do the specific training

Notice through all the phases (VO2, 20MP or CP) there was an element of 'sweet spot' training when doing sessions @ 80-90% CP. This plus the different focuses keeps your body adapting at different intensities and durations (loads) and enabling your body to constantly responds to different strains. If you this consistently your fitness will most likely experience greater improvements.

For those training for 70.3 or IM eventually will have to move to do less CP training (to maintain it) and do much more of sweet spot  ride for 70.3 (2-4 hrs @ 80-90% CP) or endurance rides for IM (4-6 hrs @ 70-79% CP).

In summary, even if your 3MP stays the same but your 20MP increase then your CP will increase! 

CyborgQueen - 2011-02-13 4:48 PM Hey Jorge - 

   I'm really pumped up into doing/trying this torture wonderful program.  Can I start the program two months before my first tri of the season (it's going to be a fun race, nothing too exciting) at the end of April?  Or should I wait until after that (Starting first week of May) and focus on cycling until my tri's in late summer/fall?

Will I still get the full benefit if I use HR instead? It may be a little off because:  I know if I'm on the road, and I'm going on the hills and I know i'm pushing too hard if my HR gets above 170. However, when I am on the trainer I could barely get my HR above 140.  Hence why in a small way, I think powermeter may help.  There are times where I feel like I'm going "all out", but my HR says not.  So I physically may not feel like I'm all out, but mentally I am. Hence why I think this program may work better. 

menglo - 2011-02-14 7:42 AM My Test results from start to finish!

                       Test 1        Test 2           Test 3          Test 4
Avg Spd:           22            22.42             21.5            22.6
Avg HR:            165            169               168            165

between tests 2 and 3 I got a garmin for Xmas and due to calibration I'm sure that is why there is such a descrepancy there (I had also JUST gotten over being sick).  All in all, I'm feeling SOOOO much stronger.  I feel VERY prepared for the season to come, but I am left with one question.

I am currently training for a Mary in May, but also have a HIM in mid July.  I saw above that you suggested starting over at week 7 and repeat moving forward.  Should I do this as well to maintain/build my biking abilities?  Just throw 7-10 days of rest inbetween the cycles?

Thank you Jorge, I am feeling VERY confident in my biking abilities and am VERY excited about this season to see what I can do!

jsiegs - 2011-02-14 12:59 PM 
Very good overview Jorge!  By my interpretation, I'm "imcomplete" right now.  My 20 min power went up a lot, hence my estimated CP went up, but since I'm skewed towards more instense shorter sessions, I may not be able to hold that CP for a full hour and these next 5 weeks will fix that, right?  Or have those tempo efforts helped to fix that along the way somewhat?  This isn't a really important question, I'm just sort of curious if I went out for a 40k TT tomorrow, would I target my most recent CP result.

JorgeM - 2011-02-14 3:16 PM

The beauty of the CP model is that it is rather robust up to ~60 min, hence if based on your 3 and 20MP your CP should be rather close to your actual capacity. If you were to do a 40KTT tomorrow and you would pace correctly your avg power should be rather close to your CP and might be +/- a few watts. 

For efforts longer than that the CP model loses some of it robustness because as the duration extends, you also need specific adaptations (endurance) that will allow your body to realize your potential. IOW, if your CP is 250 and in theory you can sustain 80% of that for 5 hrs, you won't necessarily realize that potential unless you do some specific training. 

Still, the higher your CP, you'll be in a greater position to train specifically to achieve your potential and even if your endurance is lacking a bit, still, you should have the ability to produce sustainable power than someone with lower CP than you at the same (W/Kg). i.e. that's why you see athletes with minimal endurance experience yet once they move to the longer distance they can produce great performances even with seemingly less experience and fitness. i.e. a 10K guy moving to the marathon distance.

And yes, the next weeks on the program focusing on CP and sweet sport/endurance should help you consolidate and improve your CP even if your 3MP remain constant.

birdog41 - 2011-02-16 9:51 AM Just finished the 4th time trial and went back to look at my logs from when I first started the program....I am extremely happy with the improvement. 

Test #1---- HR 158                 18.89 MPH
Test #2---- HR 155                 19.68 MPH
Test #3---- HR 151                 22.18 MPH
Test #4---- HR 150                 22.57 MPH

Almost 3 MPH faster than when I started.  Thanks so much for putting this program together.  Would it be beneficial to me if I were to train with a power meter rather than a HR monitor? 

jsiegs - 2011-02-14 2:41 PM 

Gotcha.  I knew I was "endurance deficient" (I haven't done any of the optional rides), I guess I just assumed an hour would hit that "endurance" threshold. 

If you don't mind my asking a follow on question - for a HIM A race in mid June (eagleman), I got the advice to find an early season Oly, and focus raising CP through that race (what we're doing in this plan I guess), then starting to build the endurance after that (adding in the longer ride and sacrificing some of the Q3 type stuff (I'd guess I can leave in the Q1 CP focused work) and probably some running miles.  I'm signed up for a mid April Oly, so after that I have 8 weeks until the HIM.  Is that enough time to build the required endurance?  I'm in week 10 now, and planning to repeat the last few weeks when I finish to lead me into my first Oly race.

ETA: I think this type of question has been asked many times and you've answered many times...sorry I haven't always been keeping up with this thread.  Feel free to tell me I just need to read back through the thread to find the answer.

smarchildon - 2011-02-15 2:35 PM I just finished my 4th TT.  I've felt stronger on the bike for the last 3 weeks.  I think I was off for test 3 which is why there is such a big jump from 3-4.  Also, right after test 3 I raised my saddle height by 1/4 of an inch and I felt like I gained a little more power.  Could this be possible?     

Test 1: 135HR  21.20MPH
Test 2: 149HR  21.98MPH
Test 3: 154HR  21.74MPH
Test 4: 145HR  23.30MPH

Flagstaff30 - 2011-02-16 8:05 PM I just wanted to write a last note of thanks to Jorge.  I wasn't able to do my final set of tests due saddle sores that are keeping me off the bike (or at least, off the saddle) for a while.  I was feeling pretty good toward the end of January and was looking foward to some additional watts being added to my CP. Overall, the plan did what I needed, bringing me back up to a good level of fitness with a low time requirement.  

Perhaps even more valuable to me were reading Jorge's responses to everyone's questions, and especially the various pieces of training advice/philosophy posted here and on his blog.  Thanks for all of it Jorge.

PS.  Want to try a new kind of hard?  Do 20 - 30 minutes at 80% - 90%.  Standing.  I don't know if it's going to help my fitness, or even maintain what I gained over the past 3 months, but my legs sure feel like they've been worked!

ChrisM - 2011-02-14 4:40 PM Just sharing....  did a 65 mile ride on one of our river trails, from the ocean to the mountains and back.  My riding buddy who I've done all my long rides with (and who granted is not in great shape but can do this ride) said "you have never put the hurt on me like you did today.  whatever you are doing during the week, keep it up."

JorgeM - 2011-02-18 12:27 PM

Sorry for the late response; regarding the CP question - in general in my experience coaching most athletes training for long distance events can successfully maintain their CP gains achieved over the general phase as long as they do a CP focused session per week during the specific phase. The specific phase will be when you focus on your main race, in your case a 70.3 which requires you to improve your sustainable power over 2-2:30 hrs @80-85% of CP.

So, if you focus between now and the specific phase to raise your CP and then you focus on maintain it, see what works for you but try a weekly CP session plus your specific training (i.e. 1 long ride, 1 CP ride and 1 Tempo ride) and see how you handle the load.

As far as to when the specific phase should start, in general, training adaptation can be maximized around 4-8 weeks depending on your training load and focus. So, if you devote 8 weeks to your specific training, then it can be enough to get your in killer 70.3 shape. I would say, try having 10 weeks for specific phase (just in case) to get some intense training, a few peak weeks (with race rehearsals) and your taper days/week.

makes sense?