Ironman Florida : Official Thread (Page 32)

Socks - 2012-09-24 12:21 PM I just wanted to share with all of you that my left foot is SUPREMEMLY ME OFF!!! Looking like yet another death march on the marathon this year. HIGHLY ANNOYED...carry on

Feet are overrated.  Have you tried ART?  My ART guy seems to be able to work wonders with my messed up body mechanics.

jldicarlo - 2012-09-24 12:46 PM

Socks - 2012-09-24 12:21 PM I just wanted to share with all of you that my left foot is SUPREMEMLY ME OFF!!! Looking like yet another death march on the marathon this year. HIGHLY ANNOYED...carry on

Feet are overrated.  Have you tried ART?  My ART guy seems to be able to work wonders with my messed up body mechanics.

oh yeah there like 100s of ART people in Harlingen texas..............I have had a little ART at races.  Its a time thing right now.  I would try it if it were easy now that I don't live in the 7th circle of hell

There are a few reasons why someone may not want to be on the far right of the shoulder the entire time, but I certainly wasn't advocating riding in the center of a 12' lane.  The shoulder is the most common location for hazardous materials (rocks/glass etc) and while they normally do a real solid job of getting the course clean, shoulders are not intended for travel.  Take a look at this video and you can see sections where the grass impedes on to the shoulder and debris on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzghRuoUw2k

If someone is riding on the furthest most right portion of the road way (not the shoulder), there is ample room to pass them in a 12' lane (just like is done at every aid station), now if they are riding side by side, that is a different story, but riding on the left side of the pavemnt marking isn't a penatly.  I chose to ride as close to the pavement stripe as possible (on the shoulder side), but there are portions where the grade/banking is a little worse on the shoulder so I hop on to the roadway.  being too far to the right of the shoulder now gives you no room to move right if something comes up in your way and you are being passed on the left.

We're talking about 18' of surface here so rding 5' - 7' from the edge of the surface is perfectly acceptable....just don't do it side by side.  

I just disagree.  The shoulder IS part of the road and I feel like people are blocking when they ride in the car lane.  When I have to pass someone I typically end up having to move 5 feet to my left and then move back another 5 feet to where I was riding before.  There is MORE than enough room to pass them on the right and that's illegal.  If someone isn't blocking you shouldn't have room to pass them on the right.

These shoulders are perfectly acceptable for riding in.  Hwy 20 only has one lane of traffic in each direction so for people to ride in the car lane they are forcing vehicles to cross the yellow line to pass.  If people rode in the shoulder the vehicles would not have to move over...which can become important when there is oncoming traffic.

I ride in these shoulders all day long and I hardly ever flat (or, rode in them all day long when I lived there, but do the same thing here in West Texas).  You are not more likely to flat in the shoulder...there isn't THAT much in the way of debris.  I know there are some roads like that...but not the ones on the IMFL course.  The shoulders are very very rideable and debris-free.  If it was a narrower shoulder I wouldn't care so much...but we are talking a 6+ foot shoulder...that is a lot of biking real estate.

Unless there is something I have to avoid (snake, grass, piece of wood, etc.) I will never ride in the car lane when there is a reasonable size shoulder available.  That's asking to get hit.

The 2011 athlete guide advises that participants must ride on the “far right side of the road except when passing another rider or for reasons of safety.”  Another location it advises participants to “always ride on the right side of the lane.”  (http://c28909.r9.cf1.rackcdn.com/2010/12/2011-Ford-Ironman-Florida-Athlete-Guide.pdf)

Chloe, the bike course marshall in 2012 and 2011 (http://runningwithabottleofwine.blogspot.com/) (http://www.examiner.com/article/question-and-answers-with-ironman-florida-bike-course-marshal) has told me personally the only way you will be penalized for riding in the lane of travel is if you are riding in the middle or far left of the travel lane.  And even then, she said a warning still might preceed any penalty.  She told me that she understand the shoulder does not always present the safest place to ride. (again you can disegree with her and I, but as far as blocking, it will not be considered blocking or impeeding other participants if you are riding single file on the left side of the shoulder but to the right side of the road).

The shoulder (while may be the cleanest in the world in Panama City) is still the most common place for debris to gather and while you may chose to ride as close to the edge of the surface as possible, try and understand those chosing to ride in the travel lane are not breaking the rules, simply implimenting a different strategy than you.

Well, they are lucky she interprets the rules that way...the "far right side of the road" is the right side of the shoulder....no if ands or butts about it.  "right side of the lane" is more clear, but that could also be referring to the parts of the course that do not have a shoulder.

As soon as the first biker gets killed by a driver who wasn't able to move over far enough they will change their interpretation.

Edit: If they are going to say that the shoulder doesn't always present the safest place to ride, then the interpretation ought to only allow you to move out of the shoulder when it isn't safe...momentary excursions, not permanently out of it.  Just because of the three feet over 112 miles that might have a rock or a stick in it you shouldn't avoid the shoulder entirely.

I don't think it is luck as much as it is riding within the rules. If the rule was to ride the shoulder of the road when present except for aid stations/debris/parked car etc., I'm sure people would adhere to the rules (for the most part).

I'm just kinda confused as to what the problem is.  The travel lane is 12' wide and that is PLENTY of room to pass a bike riding within 2' of the white stripe seperating the travel lane from the shoulder.

I can understand your desire to want to ride the shoulder, but why do you have a problem if other people don't?

I don't want it to seem like I am picking on you, I've just never seen someone who feels so passionate about something other athletes do that is within the rules.  Now, drafting, headphones, tone alerts on peoples watches, personal support, abandonement different stories, that's all illegal.

Because these roads are not closed to traffic...and after the race is over most of those people riding in the car lane won't have to contend with the drivers all those riders ticked off by riding in the car lane when there is a totally acceptable shoulder available.  All that annoyance will fall on the locals who ride there all the time.  And that isn't right...when it's really NOT THAT HARD to just ride in the PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE AND NOT LIKELY TO CAUSE FLATS AT ALL SHOULDER.

Highway 20 is notoriously bad for drivers harrassing cyclists.  We don't need to tick them off any more.

Totally different scenario if the road is closed to traffic.  But it's not.  Our place is in the shoulder.

Totally disagree. Never seen a statement on here that I could disagree with more. Unless the race director institutes a rule saying you must stay on the shoulder, "our" place is on the road. Just as it is in everyday cycling. I really think you're confusing your preference with what the law and rules allow.

Can you ride on the shoulder if that's what you prefer? Sure.

Must you ride on the shoulder or be in violation of the rules? Not unless the RD or WTC institutes a special rule.

You want other participants to ride on the shoulder, moving in and out of the travel lane at least every 10 miles for aid stations, even though it is perfectly acceptable and within the rules to ride in the travel lane, there is ample room to ride and pass in the travel lane, riding in the travel lane now gives you a buffer to the right (the shoulder) to move into in case of a puncture, an area of avoidance to avoid anything in the road or launched bottles or other dropped equipment and ride the location of the surface with the highest concentration of rocks and other debris that can cause a flat all because of the ignorace of drivers in Panama City and how it might affect cyclists after the race?  I think you should be prepared to be frustrated again in 2012 as you were in 2010 because that is just unreasonable.

The race is advertised in the local papers, local television and the course and road delays are explained to the citizens well in advance.  If anyone is driving the course on November 3 and gets angry/frsutrated with cyclists who are abiding race rules, they have nobody to blame but themselves and it is unrealistic to EXPECT anyone to change their race stratgey (again, when racing within the rules) to keep them happy.

I get your preference to ride the shoulder, but to expect other people to do it is just too far.  If it was against the rules, okay, I would most certainly agree.  People should be aware of all race rules and race within the guidelines given to all participants, but they should not be asked to change how they swim/ride/run/transition because uneducated locals don't like their style. 

I'm not racing this year.  I lurk in this forum because I'm very familiar with the local area having lived nearby for 3 years and gone out to this race 3 times (plus riding the course at least a half dozen times).  I've worked the change tent twice and spectated for friends.  I feel like I can help answer questions, thus I hang around.  I'll probably stop hanging around after another year or so since my information will be outdated.

I will agree to disasgree.

Are you guys really saying that on a normal (non race) ride you would ride in the middle of the car lane when there is a 4-6 foot shoulder to use?  That legally we are not required to ride as far over on the road surface as possible?  That would probably not stand up in court.  Every traffic law I've seen says bikes are required to use the shoulder if available or ride as far to the right as possible.

Like I said before, if it was a closed course I could see allowing us to use the car lane, but with the course not closed I don't see how we don't have to follow the normal rules of the road.

Edit: I'd also like to stop hijacking the IMFL forum...never meant for this to go on this long.

No, I do not ride in the middle of the car lane.  I do however ride in the car lane and hug the white line as close as possible.

Florida law states:

A bicyclist who is not traveling at the same speed of other traffic must ride in a designated bike lane  or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway. A bicyclist may leave the right-most portion of the road in the following situations: when passing another vehicle moving in the same direction; when preparing for a left turn; when reasonably necessary to avoid any condition or potential conflict including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, pedestrian , animal, surface hazard, or turn lane 

A note about bike lanes and shoulders: 

Where no bicycle lane is marked, a white edge line is often marked to indicate the edge of the roadway. On a road with curbs, the gutter is not part of the roadway. A cyclist should avoid the gutter area; pavement joints or debris may be hazardous. On a road with flush shoulders, any pavement beyond the edge line is a paved shoulder; it is not a bicycle lane unless it is marked with the bicycle lane marking.

Roads with flush shoulders: where no bicycle lane is marked, a white edge line is typically marked to indicate the edge of the roadway; any pavement to the right of the edge line is shoulder pavement, not a bicycle lane unless it is marked with the bicycle lane symbol.

Since the definition of “roadway” excludes shoulders, a cyclist is not required to ride on a paved shoulder that is not marked as a bicycle lane, although they may prefer to do so. A cyclist who rides on a paved shoulder should still travel on the right because (1) this reduces crash risk at intersections and driveways (drivers don’t expect traffic on shoulders to approach from the “wrong” direction) and (2) whenever the cyclist enters the roadway (e.g., to pass a pedestrian or other cyclist, cross an intersection, keep clear of a vehicle approaching to enter the roadway at a driveway, avoid debris or obstructions, etc.), right-side operation becomes mandatory.

See Above

As a participant, I should hope other participants should want clarification on this rule/law so that on race day they have appropriate expecations.

The rules and laws clearly state that riding in the travel lane is acceptable.  You will not be penalized, nor ticketed while training.  What you decide is safest is up to you.

That is exactly my point....to me Hwy 20 and Hwy 79 at IMFL are places where if you do not ride in the shoulder you may die because the road isn't closed and the traffic is going AT LEAST 50-60 mph...maybe faster...

Ok, so to summarize things for this race, forgetting about what we do at other races or in training:

1. At IMFL, won't be penalized for blocking as long as we're on the right side of the lane, but don't have to be in the shoulder.

2. There are sections where cars go fast, so riding in the shoulder might be a good idea for self-preservation.  Also an ok idea if you don't want to remind some a-hole, couch potatoe driver with a bad case of physical fitness envy of why he hates cyclists.

So, how about a little training chatter  

What did everyone do over the weekend?  I had 5.5 hr. ride on sat. followed by 3 mi. run, then 21 mi. run on Sun. (route miscalculation, was supposed to be a little shorter).  Everything went awesome, pumped, I'm starting to become pretty sure I can complete this IM thing!!  Rest week now, Augusta 70.3 Sun., three more weeks of good training, then taper, can't wait!!

I had a RACE!!! I recently moved back to civilization from the 7th circle of hell where there were no races so this was a big deal.  I sucked bad but I had fun

Wow!

Rode 80 and ran 5 on Saturday, watched alot of football.  Ran 20 on Sunday, watched more football then went to see Lewis Black in concert Sunday night. 

Yesterday was an off day and back at it today with masters swimming this morning and an hour ride this evening.  Another big weekend of 100 on the bike and about 23 miles running between Saturday and Sunday.