Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! (Page 34)

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Kathy / Rusty - thanks for the posts.  I don't have Skiba's book, but would be interested in the training zones, because this is certainly an area that's a bit confusing for me when trying to figure out how to pace the swim workouts.  I like the idea of testing similar to how I do the bike testing, plus it keeps things simple.  I did like the testing protocols also listed in Rusty's link, however it would have been nice to see the article tell you what you're supposed to do with the times and how to apply them for training.

Snow day again for the kids which usually means Y is closed as well.

I'll ride the CT doing zone 2/3 work and if Y opens later try to get my swim in.

The weather has really effected my normal training week's flow of both my swims and runs which is annoying me. I like following the plan as is.

Yesterday was the first run I've done without ice or snow on the roads for many weeks, and today it snows.

Edited by KathyG 2011-01-21 8:04 AM

New question(s) - sorry, I'm full of these.

What type of training volumes have each of you used in the past at the HIM level - and found to be successful?  I know this is a personal question, but I'm trying to get some thoughts on what approaches people have found worked, or at the opposite end, not worked.  I would think that distances as opposed to time makes the most sense because we are all faster or slower than one another.

Second part - how much intensity vs LSD would you say worked for each of you?  i.e. If you're going out for a 3 hour ride, do you find that you're doing this at 85% race pace, race pace, even slower, faster?  I realize that different workouts will be at different intensities, but overall how would you rank the efforts. 

Basically trying to undertsand what everyone has used, and liked / didn't like.  And how long did you find you wanted to train specifically for an HIM distance?

(I know this is asking a lot, I'll shutup now). 

I did order a new Sram Apex cassette 11-32 to try out for IMLP. My tri camp in March I can try it out. I have another 11-34 cassette that I used for IM Canada.

I seem to have caught my youngest son's cold/sore throat, so it looks like this will be another low volume training weekend for me.  Gotta love January! 

Neil - I agree - that part seemed to be left out.
My swim workout paces are usually described as "Base," "Endurance," "Steady State,"  "Tempo," and all-out "Sprints." For my purposes, Endurance pace is similar to IM pace, Steady State is similar to OLY/HIM, and Tempo is more like Sprint-distance race pacing. The pacing tests that I have done are similar to those in the article, but not exactly the same. By inference though I might suggest that the anaerobic,  aerobic, and long course/iron distance pacing sets described in the article map onto those paces. So by extension, you could use your average 100y splits from each set to set your specific paces.
That is kind of what I have done, anyway.

x2
Kathy, Rob, Fred and others - remember to rub it in when Randy and I are complaining about the heat and humidity in early May....

I've got a quick question about road bike fitting. I've got one scheduled this afternoon. I've always wanted to ride my roadie more but it always nagged that "train like you race" i.e. Best return is from training on your tri bike. But I read this http://iamspecialized.com/triathlon/rider/jordan-rapp#/blog(scroll down to the post about why triathletes need a road bike, though I'm sure this is old news to a lot of you) and have heard more and more that a good road position effectively mimics the tri aero position to where you're getting a very good bang for your buck. Also in my hilly rides, I'm out of aero quite a bit so that's much worse training (apparently). I've also never been fit to this bike, so that's another reason to do it. What do you guys think?So I'm bring both bikes to the fitting, so he can try to mimic positions. Is there anything else you think I should ask about? Any good tips or things to make sure I bring up for a more effective fitting? TIA!

Good luck with your bike fit today!

How does your fitter work?  Did he/she fit you on your tri bike too?

From Rapp's article sounds like key is getting your hip angle the same between the bikes.

I have used a fitter that has Retuel which is just a fancy measuring system that does motion capture so he can see what all my angles are.

I have a road bike and cross bike but struggle riding them long as I have carpal tunnel and my hands go numb.

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I had a break thru run today.  I finally hit a pain threshold about 1hr 10mins into a run.  I have been looking for my breaking points in my runs.  I found it and pushed beyond.  Maybe not so ethical of a training philosophy but it can work.  I don’t recommend this for beginners or those that don’t understand because of the high risk of injury.  Hitting my threshold I felt a great deal of pain and my form was breaking down.  The run goal was 10 miles and/or 1hr 15mins.  I went 10.25 miles and 1hr 18mins. 
 
Some things that most certainly affected this result; my volume lately; I am at week three of a three week build.  My overall pace on this run after a couple of harder days.  This run was on tired legs, I like Fred like to train this way.   
 
I am not a rock star; I just want to be competitive AG’er.  It’s probable not a mystery that my weak point is the long run.  I hope to change that this year.  Insight, making what I hate my friend and some smart training may do the trick. 
 
The reason I brought this up is because some discussion about form breakdown it swimming.  While swimming is very technique in form, form is also important in the other two disciplines.  Do you have a run form breaking point?  Sorry in advance for the open end question.

Hi everybody - I hope everyone that is not sick and/or snowed in is having a good training day.

While I am not sure that it qualifies as a breakthrough per se, I did have a good swim - 3500 yards that included set of 5x 100/50/25 all-out sprints at the end. 3 months ago I was clocking 100s in the 1:18~1:20 range. This morning I hit my first 100 in 1:15 and then totally surprised myself with a 1:11 on the second set. Of course I totally blew a gasket on that one and went 1:21, 1:19, 1:19 for the next 3. I know a 1:11 is nothing for the fasties in the group, that is is most likely the quickest 100 I have ever swam. So an old dog can learn new tricks. That, or my watch is simply broken.

Followed up with 1 hour of DT sports massage. So a good day.

In addition to the swim, I had on today's schedule a 10k step-up run, but my coach called last night and said I could nix it if I ran a 5k race tomorrow (Saturday). As I would crawl across burning coals and broken glass to get out of a step-up run, I took him up on it, which kinda blows today's massage. So for Saturday I have that followed by a 1 hour recovery spin. On Sunday my workout schedule only lists "Wife Time. I am very excited about that!

How is everyone else's weekend shaping up?

James - awesome run today congratulations - that is a great way to go into the weekend!
Put me in that camp as well - I most often do longer workouts with a little fatigue - I think it was summed up best in the recent runner's World article (and I think discussed a while back in this thread?) it might be more important to train for the last 16 miles of a marathon, rather than the first 16. If run with some fatigue going in, your long run should do a better job of that.

Yes absolutely - I actually think run form breakdown due to fatigue is probably much more detrimental than swim for breakdown. At least in my case, it seems to exacerbate itself exponentially. It seems that I can always get my swim form to come back in line simply by backing down a bit, But with run form, when it is gone, it is gone.

The first thing that many of us do when we begin to get tired is to actually slow our cadence down, but slightly lengthen our stride - we try to maintain our speed by cheating and doing less basically. This of course tends to increase heel strike, which historically just pounds me to death. The next thing for me is the shuffle, which does just the opposite - it really beats my toes up, regardless of toe box size or lacing strategy.

This time around I am utilizing a reverse periodization strategy (I know, a complete misnomer) so I am currently not running long - I am focusing on LT at the moment, so I am not sure how my long-distance break point has been effected. I do however feel much more durable than I ever remember - I think mostly due to the strength/plyometrics in my current plan. I am anxious to see if/how this changes my breaking point - but that is way down the road for me, I think.

I'll try to answer and just imo what I do more or less.
 
1st Question:
 
I normally do three weeks of build then a week recovery with less or equal to the first week.  I mix it up hard and easy efforts listening to my body.  I’ve done well with this and if any thing maybe to easy overall as not to get injured.  If it’s a HIM example long bike is 10-15% longer than the distance and so forth.  So total hours a week are a choice thing and I fit it in as needed as I comfortably can do.  Don’t be afraid to take a rest day.  I am a bit locked in training and if sleep and recovery is going well I take very few rest days when I am going at it.  I hope that made sense.
 
Going back to my BIO for this group;
“My training is very unorthodox but is working very well for me.  I use no coach, follow no set plan except the one in my head projected about 2 weeks out.  I see the goal and know what I need to get there.  I train primarily with Rating of Perceived Exertion (RPE) with heart rate (HR) as a limiter.  In the winter I ride a Computrainer using power.”  

 
2nd Question:
 
How much intensity?  That a great question and imo widely debated.  I like a dangerous old school of thought “No Pain NO Gain”.  I like intensity but you can’t go all out all the time imo.  A great way to get intensity is intervals.  They can be in the middle of a 120 mile 10000ft bike ride if want.  Mix it up with on and off days as long as your body is recovered or some what recovered.  Swim hard easy run, easy bike hard run, easy and easy, hard and hard kind of like that.  This is why plan are done to map it out.    
 
 
To sum it up what I do works for me.  I don’t complicate my workout but make them challenging, fun and interesting.  Point and goals; need to increase fitness, endurance without injury.  Hope you can draw from a crazy old triathlete what you can. 




Edited by tasr 2011-01-21 8:29 PM

I tied my PB for 50 yards twice tonight and was 2 second faster than any of my 50s last year.

Finally some progress in the pool & I am very pleased!

That's great Kathy!

James loves him some PB. 

Kathy,  You have the Apex group on your tri bike or just the cassette?   

My Ordu is full Ultegra. I have an off brand cassette, IRC,  that I used for IM Canada with a MTB long cage derailleur but quality isn't great plus spacing of gears I didn't like. I looked into getting an Apex rear derailleur but Sram and Shimano shifters/derailleurs aren't easily compatible.