Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum--OPEN! (Page 38)

Steve,

My short answer:  Yeah, not so much.

My long answer:

Let me start by saying I don't like to "argue" with other coaches.  I don't for a moment believe that my coaching philosophy is the only one or necessarily the best one.  My way works for me and has worked for the athletes I have been privileged to work with.  I try to be open to other ideas as that is where learning takes place, however, in my mind a new idea has to "make sense."  I am not sure I see where this particular idea makes sense.

While I am not a fan of pull buoys I am a fan of paddles and bands once a week or once every other week, although NOT for the reason most people advocate them.  I view paddles as a stroke technique tool rather than a strength tool.  All too often, I hear, "Use paddles to make you stronger."  You can do the same thing in a gym, far more quickly, and far more targeted so I don't agree with the premise of using paddles for strength.

In the context of the article you shared - I don't really agree with his philosophy.  Yeah, I know, he has a pretty impressive resume of athlete achievements.  The question is, did the coach make the athlete, or did the athlete make the coach?  I am not saying he isn't a good coach so please don't take it that way.  I merely relate back to my swimming days - my coach, Jim Montrella, was a phenomenal coach.  Yet, as more and more of his swimmers excelled, more and more REALLY fast swimmers came - from around the world - to train with him, leading to more of "his" swimmers excelling.  Was that the coach making the athlete or the athlete making the coach?

So, removing the luster of an impressive resume, back to the pull buoy debate.  I prefer not to use or have athletes use pull buoys because they can indeed be a crutch.  I mentioned earlier that I use paddles and pull sets specifically to work on stroke technique.  Part of technique is proper position in the water.  While using a pull buoy will get your legs in to the proper position, it does nothing towards training you to keep them there.  Can it be advantageous for a new swimmer to use a pull buoy in the beginning to develop an understanding of what proper position is?  Yes, absolutely.  Should that extend beyond one or two workouts?  I don't believe so.  I think you have to develop the core strength and "feel" so you can position your legs properly.  Then there is the inevitable question of, "What happens when the pull buoy is removed?" 

In the article it seems that Brett advocates, or at least accepts, using pull buoys all the time, even outside of pull sets.  To my way of thinking, if you want to be a good swimmer, you need to swim.  No frills, just swim.  Brett says, "Pull-buoys also mimic wetsuit swimming, which is an entirely different body position than normal non-wetsuit position."  Isn't that just replacing one crutch for another one?  If you technique is good and you are positioned properly in the water without a buoy then using a wetsuit will merely raise you higher in the water, much like a speedboat going up on plane - potentially making you several seconds per 100 faster.

Then he goes on to say, "As for the inevitable question about how athletes then cope in a non wetsuit legal race? The answer is far better than if they wasted the preceding months thrashing away like a frog in a blender, increasing their swim ability by zero."  Herein lies my biggest complaint with coaching today - Allowing toys to supplant good coaching.  If an athlete is thrashing away like a frog in a blender than that is a coaching failure.  One of a coaches primary jobs is to provide technique direction such that an athlete learns proper mechanics and does not thrash around the pool.  Toys are not going to replace that.  Now, I don't know how many people are in the water during these workouts.  I do know from my days of coaching an age-group swim team that there is a difference between coaching one person and coaching 50.  Regardless of the number of swimmers in the water however, a good coach will provide proper coaching to improve technique and using toys to replace proper coaching direction is just wrong.

Finally, the article talks about the so-called improvement of the swimmers making extensive use of a buoy.  For example, "SOME SWIMMER (16 x IM Winner) never swam outside of a race without her swim toys. Never. She went from a 1hr 07min swimmer to get to the stage where she was swimming around 53 minutes with a wetsuit in most of her later Ironman swims."  That seems to support the notion of using the toys.  But if we look closer, not so much.  She has completed at least 16 IM's since she has won that many, maybe more?  How many IM's can you reasonably do in a single season?  3?  4?  In any case, we are talking about a career that likely spans at least 4-8 years.  In the times cited, she started at around a 1:35/100 yard pace so clearly she had been swimming for some time before this.  She dropped from 1:07 to :53, an improvement of 14 minutes.  Stated another way, that is an improvement of 20 seconds per 100 yards or from +/- 1:35/100 yards to 1:15/100 yards.  Nice improvement but was that improvement because of the toys or was it because of the additional yards that were put in during training across the years in the example?  How much better might it have been if technique were correct and didn't rely upon a crutch to get into the proper body position?  Of course that leads to the question of "How fast SHOULD you go in the swim?"  That question is for another discussion on another day.

At the end of the day, I clearly have a different philosophy than Brett Sutton.  I believe a swimmer (and yes that includes Triathletes) should put on a speedo, get in the water and swim.  Learn to do it correctly, and put in the yards.  The results will come.

In answer to your question about the article, yeah, not so much.

Karl,

X2 on all the recommendations from Deb.  When I had a muscle tear somewhere in my hip area earlier this year, the doc told me I could do whatever did not hurt.  Running hurt.  I could not jog more than 15-20 strides at first.  So, I spent more time on the bike, tried out aqua-jogging (didn't really like it, but you can get a good workout that way), did 2-3 sessions per week on an elliptical (it did not hurt and I liked it more than the aqua-jogging) and kept on swimming.   I ran very little for 13 weeks and although I lost some fitness, I did not lose that much (2-3 minutes off my 10k time) and I was able to ramp up quite quickly after healing.

Finding a good massage therapist or PT or whatever, as Deb mentioned, can help a lot.  I found a really good massage therapist that literally keeps me in the game.  I have also learned the hard way that you have to listen to your body (and I still have my days where I don't listen).  If it hurts and for me this applies mostly to running, back off and ride your bike or swim.  

Hang in there!

I had a long post started and the dragon computer just ate it.

Summary in cliff notes:  go see my logs in 2010.  I started the season on a very high note with PR's at a HM and 10K and was building well towards my first attempt at a HIM.  Had a bad asthma flare  with bronchitis.  2 rounds antibiotics and a month (yes you read that correctly) of steroids.  Sick as a  proverbial DOG.  Missed a race that I really liked.....did an Oly in July that SUCKED cause it was over 100 degrees that day (river was 95 deg for the swim)....a week after the race I tore the big muscle in the calf (gastrocnemius)  Shredded it.  Took a while to get a Dr appointment so I used compression on it and did easy things......got the boot and off completely from running/ biking for a month.

My PT kept me for a total of 10 months.  He was going to release me after close to 5 months when the "good" leg went bad.  His parting shot to me on my final discharge was that I didn't have another HM in my legs --not even certain if there was a 10K in them.

So in my down time this is what I did:  swim only for the first 3 months.  Did nothing for my stroke and nothing to help me enjoy it.  Still avoid the pool.

Once allowed to cross train I did easy bike workouts.  Eased int jog-walk intervals and worked my way up to longer distances.  It was a cause to celebrate when I ran 3 miles nonstop.

Got to work with a trainer so that as I got back into shape I was doing it with correct guidance....strength training and other cross training classes at the gym.

Proved the PT wrong.  Since my discharge I have done 3 HM, a bunch of 10K, several sprint and Oly distance triathlons and one miserable marathon (not doing another)

Go to the gym and do other things.  Strength train to correct weakness and imbalances.  I find as we age we need that more.  Particularly if you have a sedentary job where you are hunched over a computer all day.  

Not saying it's going to be easy to do something other than the preferred workout....cause it isn't.  But, I now know that throwing a medicine ball at a wall feels as therapeutic as a hard run to me. (especially if you visualize when person you are most angry with on the wall as your target)

Scott,

That is a good question, and one that doesn't have an easy answer so I will be looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

I think the first thing is starting with a plan that is consistent with your race plans and goals.  You obviously don't need an Ironman plan if you plan is to do a sprint triathlon.  You also need to determine your goal(s).  For example, is your goal to FINISH a sprint triathlon or is it to PODIUM FINISH a sprint triathlon?  Those divergent goals will require different training.

The next thing is to come up with the plan that is appropriate for the distance, consistent with your goals and takes into account your individual needs - i.e. want to podium finish, gray athlete, etc..  You can write your own, you can use a generic pre-written plan (such as those here on BT), you can take a generic plan and customize it to your needs, or you can hire a coach.

When I was doing my own plan, I started with a plan here on BT and then I modified it for my needs.  I use a formula that keeps my volume build in line.  I give 1 point for each 100 yards swimming, 1 point for each mile on the bike, and 1 point for each 1/4 mile running.  100 yards swimming = 1 mile cycling = 1/4 mile running.  I then total up all the points for the current week.  Next week, my training can't go beyond 110-115% of the current week points.  An example:

Say this week you run, ride, and swim three times each.

Run - 3, 5, 3 = 11 miles = 44 points

Cycling - 15, 25, 10 = 50 miles = 50 points

Swim - 1K, 1K, 1K = 3,000 yards = 30 points

Total points for the week is 124.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 136-143 points.

So next week might look something like:

Run - 4, 5, 3 = 12 miles = 48 points

Cycling - 18, 25, 12 = 53 miles = 55 points

Swim - 1.2K, 1.2K, 1.2K = 3,600 yards = 36 points

Total points for the week is 139 points.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 153-160 points.

Depending upon your volume, you may want to add a recovery week.  I generally have a recovery week every 4th week.  So you would build according to the above schedule for three consecutive weeks, then the fourth week drop the volume between 20-30% of the current week depending upon how much total volume you are doing.  The week after recovery would be slightly more volume than the week before recovery.

Something like this:

1 - workout

2 - build

3 - build

4 - recovery (week 3 minus 20-30%)

5 - equal to week 3 plus 1-3%

6- build

7 - build

8 - recovery

Using a system like that will allow you to take a professionally written plan and modify it to your needs.  If you feel you need extra work in one discipline, say your feel your cycling is weak, you could adjust the cycling volume upwards but keeping the overall points within the limits.  If you want to extend the plan, you can do so, using the formula to keep your volume in line.  Remember if you add weeks, you don't want your build to stagnate, meaning you want a healthy build each week.  You can certainly add weeks if the pre-written plan takes bigger volume builds than you are comfortable with.  If you want to stretch things out, simply lower the build each week, maybe 106-109% of current week points.

The plans here on BT are not necessarily written with a podium finish in mind so if your goal is to be highly competitive or stand atop the podium, you will likely need to increase intensity in the later weeks of the plan and maybe add a week or two focusing on intensity and speed work.  If you add intensity, you may want to consider NOT adding volume or even reducing volume marginally to prevent injury.

Finally, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!  If you body says you need a rest, then either cut back a day or skip a day entirely.  Try not to make that a regular habit, but listening to what your body is telling you will help avoid injury.

Hopefully that will help and maybe give you a starting point.

Congratulations Steve!

Looks like it is time to get back to it!  Sorry to say, that includes the pool too!

Edited because I can't spell!

Thanks Steve.

Intensity is definitely the wild card.  I have tried for a couple years to find a way to change the formula I shared and include an intensity variable as you calculate appropriate build.  The problem is intensity is indeed a variable.  Volume is fairly easy to model in a linear fashion.  Intensity is not.  When you add the two together it becomes very difficult.  Then on top of that, your physiological response to a training stimulus is going to be different than my response to the same stimulus, which is going to be different than John Does.  Trying to capture all of that in a simple to use formula is a challenge to say the least.  I imagine that there is a PhD/MD somewhere that has years worth of empirical data that can accurately predict/model a training plan but for me, at the end of the day, I do it the old fashion way.  The weeks I am increasing intensity, I lower the volume build and visa versa.  Above all else, I listen to my body and having an objective third party in the form of a coach helps.   It's worked so far.