Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA? (Page 4)

I'm not saying that the harder or grimier the job the more you should get paid ... no one wants to be a janitor or clean latrines ... but that doesn't take much education and it not a position of responsiblity, esp. responsibilty over other people/

I don't mean that teachers or cops get less or should get less because they work a hard job or a job not many other people want ... what I'm say (or repeating what I heard or read long time ago) is that these salaries are not all that high ... because they don't want just ANYONE becoming a teacher or cop - positions of responsibility and authority over others ... don't want just anyone taking these jobs.

If these jobs paid very well, you would have a lot of people getting into those fields because like most people ... they want to earn a lot of money.  But these people may not necessarily have the children's best interests in mind .... remember ... they are in it for the money.

But, someone that chooses to be a teacher even when they know it isn't a high paying job ... well they are most likely getting into that position because they love to teach, want to help others, etc ....

So by keeping the salaries lower on these types of positions ... the theory I've heard is that this helps ensure that only people really looking to do good will take these positions ... not just any old fool just out to make some big moeny.

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States spent an average of $8,701 per pupil to educate its children in 2005, the Census Bureau said on Thursday" - Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2438214220070524

 OK... Lets do some math.  Lets put 22 kids in the class.  $8,701 x 22 = $191,000 dollars per class room.  Do you think that you could rent an apartment for 8 months (far larger than most classrooms), buy some books and supplies and teach some kids on $191k?  Heck yes.  That ignores the economy of scale of having several classrooms sharing facilities and support staff.

 It is staggering how much money is wasted in education in America.

I still don't see the validity of the "pay them poorly so only the dedicated will do it" theory.  It reminds me of an old family friend we knew when I was growing up, who believed that all kids should be taught by nuns (which was ironic given that she (A) had no kids and (B) was jewish).  Her theory was that since they have no other life, the nuns would be 100% devoted to the job of teaching. 

One might apply this theory to any number of fields - we should not pay too much to doctors, pilots, soldiers, or pretty much anyone else who ultimately can harm others in the normal course of their jobs well, so only people who are "dedicated to doing good" go into it. And of course, they should not have any other distractions in their lives that would keep their focus off of the job.

I think the real reason teachers are underpaid is that is historically a job done by women.  As for underpaying cops, how long was graft and corruption a common part of the cops pay? Do we really want to have disgruntled people monitoring our kids and enforcing our laws all day?

How is it "wasted"?  Schools are obligated to provide a lot more services than a room, some books, and a teacher.  Kids with special needs have to have evaluations, and then services.  PT and OT used to be services provided for outside of schools, paid for with insurance or health care dollars.  But now if a kid has needs and is in public school, who do think pays for it?  And kids with severe disturbances need higher teacher/student ratios - on the order on as much as 1:1 in some cases (I'm thinking of one of the autism classes I had a chance to visit last year in particular).  And then there are the kids who are deemed in need of a 1:1 aide but still included within the general classroom.  At the other end of the spectrum, the high achieving kids may get enrichment classes with more highly trained teachers.  And of course, there is the landscaping of the various sports fields, the upkeep of which is pretty much a year round cost. 

Of course, we could just educate to the mean, let the smart kids figure things out on their own, and kick out all the troublemakers.  After all, they're just going to end up in jail eventually anyway. Dump all the sports and extra-curriculars, or make the parents of those kids pick up the whole cost.  As for the kids with special medical or cognitive needs? Heck, let's just re-open those state hospitals and lock 'em all away from polite society. I think if we do this, we can decrease the student bodies enough that most places will only need 1 class per grade, and run a cost of maybe $2k/kid. Then we can use the savings to pay for all the services the rest will use later in life.

Do teachers get paid enough?? I don't know, but I guess it would depend on the teacher in question. The problem is that too many are basing the value of their profression as their justification and not on their individual skill or worth. Blanket statements do no good at all.

All I know for sure is, if you don't like it (the pay) then change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude to it. But, don't ask anyone else to do it for you.

As a new teacher, it is some of the comments on here that get my blood pressure up.  I did not choose this profession for the money or the glamour---there is neither. I chose it because I truly want children to learn to love learning!  I had awesome teachers in high school back in the early 80s and I strive to be one of them as well.  With that being said---

In our area the average salary for a beginning teacher is $28,000 per year.  You can take it on a payment scale of 9 months or 12 Most teachers opt for the 12 month scale.  Assuming that,before taxes he/seh would make 2300/month.  When you figure in taxes at 20% + insurance at $300/month + $100 union dues/month (we don't have an option here--we pay whether we join or not)that leaves a take home pay of $1450/month.  In my case, I could survive because I have a spouse to help with bills.  If, in the unfortunate circumstance, my husband loses his job (in this economy it's possible), and my paycheck is all we had, we would be in trouble. 

The average salary for a teacher that has been teaching 5 years and taken professional development courses, he/she makes $35,000/year.  That still isn't a lot, even for this area.   

Teachers in this state get "pink-slipped" at the end of the year for the first 2 years they teach, regardless of their evaluations.  They might be able to return, they may not, it depends on if teachers want to switch buildings (those with more seniority can move at will), how many retire or move, etc.  In our district, they are currently talking "pink-slipping" any teacher with 5 years or less teaching experience because the economy (and the district administration) have screwed us over but that is another problem. 

Many principals in our area know that they have teachers that should be removed but they are tenured and are basically untouchable.  The union at its best!  They aren't in the business of making sure the children are educated they are making sure that pizz azz teachers  can ruin a student's education.  Sometimes all it takes is one bad teacher for a student to quit caring.

In our case, we have had a specific teacher for all 4 boys and she is a real [sacr]gem.  In order to avoid her and not lose their ability to remain in enriched classes, the twins, on the advice of the counselor and current teacher, are taking trig at the local community college this summer!  Another rant for another time!

I'm going to retreat now, but I wanted everyone to know that not all teachers are raking in the dough.  It depends on where you live, how long you have been teaching and what extras you do (sports, etc.), along with other items.

Consider this fact. Many big-city school systems, namely Detroit, Cleaveland, LA, Miami, Dallas, Denver, NYC, and Baltimore graduate less than 50% of high school students on time. That mean 1 out of every 2 students are failed by our educational system. Why tolerate this level of failure? Would a private company that took money from customers and failed to serve 50% of them still be in business?

I don't blame the entire problem on teachers and the school. No healthy society abandons young males to be mentored by teenage males. But that is a completely different topic.

implementing merit-based pay, increasing teacher-student ratios, revamping union rules to reward the best teachers, bonus and incentives for new teachers, charter schools, and offering parents a coupon giving them the opportunity to send their children to the school that works best for them. I'd even go as far to say rewarding students in the poorest neighborhood by paying them if they get a B or better in math and science.

Any of those ideas, all of which create reform through market fairness, will help to increase the morale of good teachers and give the poorst children the same type of educational opportunities wealthy children have.

BTW, I don't take credit for any of these ideas, they have been around a long time and are generally suggested by conservative thinkers.

A far larger issue ( which does impact teacher pay rates as well ) is how education is funded.  At least in Illinois it's a freaking disaster.  The bulk of it comes from local property taxes collected in the school district.  This means that how much money each school district receives varies based on the "wealth" of the neighborhood the schools are located in.

The disparity ranges from $23,000 per pupil in the "top" districts to under $5,000 per pupil in the "bottom" districts.  Want to guess which students are more successful?

In addition, I'd like to add that I've paid about $20,000 for my required master's degree.  Then, I need to take additional classes to be recertified every 5 years.

 Subtract that from my total pay.  Again, I do this b/c I love working with kids.  And I enjoy learning and taking classes.  Paying for them is another story!  Most that I know in the private sector are getting their master's for free (MBAs for example).

I will never be one to say I am underpaid. I don't make a lot of money, thats it. I won't complain about it. I'm in a sport that costs a ridiculous amount of money. Those are all my choice, and its why I live frugally.

What I cannot stand is people slamming teachers and thinking that our education system is a bust.

 The problem is the degeneration of the family.  Its getting divorced and abandoning the kids. Its working 80 hours a week to afford material possessions.  Its babies having babies.

We didn't have such a crisis back in the 50s...if only we could go back to where a parent stayed at home and GASP parents stayed together and involved in their kids' lives!!

If you transfered that failure rate to say... GM or Ford, could you imagine the outrage we would have?  50% of the autos made by Ford never make it off the lot, how flipping long would they be in business?  Or 50% of the cars made by GM fail within the first 12 months.  And Ford or GM came out with some lame a$$ thing saying, we need to just throw more money at the problem.  Oh my heavens, what a hoot that would be.  But because the unions, and their cronies in government keep crying that we are not spending enough, we keep throwing MORE money at the problem that is not going to be fixed by money.

Spokes is basically correct, there is a HUGE problem with attitude, both of the teachers and the parents in some areas.  Students hold back other students, by telling them they are OREOS, or some other insult to keep them from trying harder.  Teachers, principals and school administrators do not demand the best from each student, by setting a bar too low, "so no one fails" you make it so that even the ones that succeed do so at a much lower level.  Will you get more failure, maybe but deal with those exceptions; but at least the ones succeeding will be at a higher level. 

Except that the teachers work closer to 10 months; and saying it works out to a higher rate is like saying someone who works as an exempt employee putting in 50-60 hour weeks is getting less per hour and therefore deserves a raise. 

Also in all the comparisons to "average" salaries, I wonder how teachers salaries compare to the average college graduate salary?

That analogy puts all the responsibility on the teacher.  How about this: Ford/GM makes cars.  The owners (i.e. parents) never change the oil, check the air, change the filters or belts.  Then when the cars start to break down, we blame Ford/GM for doing a poor job making cars.

Uhm, no.  You are wrong here, please check you data.

Chicago Public Schools - $9,758

District 72 in Lake Forest - $22,508

CPS is just over the state-wide average of $8500, though that average includes many more rurual districts that have less overhead/administration expenses.  That is to say, that more of the CPS budget goes to costs not directly related to education, but to other overhead, due to it's size.  So if you were measuring more directly the amount spent to actually educate a pupil, CPS would be worse off.

dude, we're not complaining.  stop putting words in our mouths.  and no, not 2.5-3 months off.  wrong.

how about your 6-8 weeks of vacation?  numerous hours spent online here wasting time? I can guarantee you I am fully engaged when Ihave my students, I bet teachers are the most PRODUCTIVE workers out there in terms of time spent on the job during the day...

that's it, I'm out! have fun folks

Admittedly this is from 2004 but here you go:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/21/pf/college/starting_salaries/

Just to give you some numbers to work with in terms of your nine month time frame:

Teachers - work 195 days (in Nova Scotia)

Average Professionals (assume M-F for ease of math) - employed 365 days which include 104 weekend days, 9 stat holidays, 16 vacation days (after 10 years); actual days worked 236.

Therefore a teacher works 83% of the days that another professional would work.  Granted this is still less than an average professional but definitely not the nine months you would like to consider.

Shane

Ok, but that's STARTING salaries. I thought the discussion covered OVERALL salaries.