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Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF (Page 4)
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 2013-02-14 12:40 PM in reply to: #4622401 |
 Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GFGoosedog - 2013-02-14 1:34 PM DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:31 PM There is no such comparable list for an automobile. Invalid parallel. There isn't? How about traffic laws? Pretty sure for just about any traffic accident resulting in death or injury you can find a violation of a traffic law.
Nope. Doesn't work. What four, oh hell let's widen it up, ten laws that everyone can understand would guarantee zero traffic accidents? Distraction is not an accident. Inattention is not an accident. Another issue, mechanical failure during driving would create an "accident" during normal operation that was unavoidable. There is no such parallel with a firearm. If you follow the four safety steps, even the WIN700 mechanical failure with a live round cannot end up with a shooting at all. Again, invalid parallel. |
| 2013-02-14 12:41 PM in reply to: #4622402 |
Sensei  Sin City | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Goosedog - 2013-02-14 10:35 AM Can someone just tell me know - is this "there is no such thing as an accidental shooting" some sort of rally cry that people hold on to? If so, fine. If not, it makes as much sense any there are no traffic accidents.
I guess they call drunk diving accidents "crashes" now. If you get behind a wheel while drunk, it's not accident. Maybe the same line of thinking? Doesn't really apply, that's negligence, not an accident. If you wheel blows out or other mechanical failure causes you to crash - accident. So I agree with you. There can be accidents per the definition of "accident". |
| 2013-02-14 12:42 PM in reply to: #4622401 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Goosedog - 2013-02-14 10:34 AM DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:31 PM There is no such comparable list for an automobile. Invalid parallel. There isn't? How about traffic laws? Pretty sure for just about any traffic accident resulting in death or injury you can find a violation of a traffic law.
Hitting a patch of ice or tire blowing out? |
| 2013-02-14 12:43 PM in reply to: #4622397 |
Member  465  | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF DanielG - 2013-02-14 12:31 PM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 1:23 PM Using the 4 rules of firearms safety: The 1st Law - The Gun Is Always Loaded! The 2nd Law - Never Point The Gun At Something You Are Not Prepared To Destroy! The 3rd Law - Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It! The 4th Law - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target! You will never have an "accidental shooting" if you follow those four rules, period. Any negligent shooting can be broken down to one or more of those four being violated. There is no such comparable list for an automobile. Invalid parallel. Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 1:18 PM I am a big fan of the 2A and I can comfortably say it is my opinion that anyone who thinks that any shooting death or injury could be the result of accident should not own or handle a firearm. Similary, if anyone thinks any injury or death could be the result of a traffic accident, they should not drive a car.
Agree. |
| 2013-02-14 12:44 PM in reply to: #4622405 |
| Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Kido - 2013-02-14 1:38 PM DanielG - 2013-02-14 10:31 AM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 1:23 PM Using the 4 rules of firearms safety: The 1st Law - The Gun Is Always Loaded! The 2nd Law - Never Point The Gun At Something You Are Not Prepared To Destroy! The 3rd Law - Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It! The 4th Law - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target! You will never have an "accidental shooting" if you follow those four rules, period. Any negligent shooting can be broken down to one or more of those four being violated. There is no such comparable list for an automobile. Invalid parallel. Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 1:18 PM I am a big fan of the 2A and I can comfortably say it is my opinion that anyone who thinks that any shooting death or injury could be the result of accident should not own or handle a firearm. Similary, if anyone thinks any injury or death could be the result of a traffic accident, they should not drive a car.
To play devils advocate. If the gun is ALWAYS loaded. How does one clean it? Do you clean loaded guns? My firearm safety instructor and concealed carry instructor had us point weapons at him under controlled situation at the range to check our position in a class room.
But of course I buy the 4 rules. Standard safety rules, when, if followed should avoid incident. Instructor pounded the same rules into us and made note that he was going to violate those rules in that instance for instructional purposes. Silly question at best. Think it through before trying to do that. Actually your instructor was an idiot, but that's a personal observation with only your comment to go on. The original statement was there are no accidental shootings. Any shooting is negligence by ignoring or not following one or more of the four rules. You are intentionally violating one or more of those rules every time you clean it. Rick mitigation is checking for loaded condition etc. It's still a violation of the rules. |
| 2013-02-14 12:46 PM in reply to: #4622417 |
| Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Kido - 2013-02-14 1:42 PM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 10:34 AM DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:31 PM There is no such comparable list for an automobile. Invalid parallel. There isn't? How about traffic laws? Pretty sure for just about any traffic accident resulting in death or injury you can find a violation of a traffic law.
Hitting a patch of ice or tire blowing out? So you're not reading posts and just throwing up whatever you think of. Answered above. There is no comparable listing for automotive safety so invalid parallel. |
| 2013-02-14 12:47 PM in reply to: #4622417 |
Champion 34263  Chicago | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Kido - 2013-02-14 12:42 PM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 10:34 AM DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:31 PM There is no such comparable list for an automobile. Invalid parallel. There isn't? How about traffic laws? Pretty sure for just about any traffic accident resulting in death or injury you can find a violation of a traffic law.
Hitting a patch of ice or tire blowing out? Failure to maintain control. |
| 2013-02-14 12:49 PM in reply to: #4622415 |
| Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Kido - 2013-02-14 1:41 PM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 10:35 AM Can someone just tell me know - is this "there is no such thing as an accidental shooting" some sort of rally cry that people hold on to? If so, fine. If not, it makes as much sense any there are no traffic accidents.
I guess they call drunk diving accidents "crashes" now. If you get behind a wheel while drunk, it's not accident. Maybe the same line of thinking? Doesn't really apply, that's negligence, not an accident. If you wheel blows out or other mechanical failure causes you to crash - accident. So I agree with you. There can be accidents per the definition of "accident". There you go, you're agreeing with the fact that automotive accidents can and do exist. Unintentional shootings are not accidents, they end up with a violation of one or more of the four rules. |
| 2013-02-14 12:50 PM in reply to: #4622425 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:44 PM Any shooting is negligence by ignoring or not following one or more of the four rules. You are assigning a definition to accident, for the specific example of shooting resulting in injury or death, that is not consistent with the standard definition of accident.
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| 2013-02-14 12:52 PM in reply to: #4622429 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF mr2tony - 2013-02-14 1:47 PM Failure to maintain control. Exactly.
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| 2013-02-14 12:52 PM in reply to: #4622434 |
| Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Goosedog - 2013-02-14 1:50 PM DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:44 PM Any shooting is negligence by ignoring or not following one or more of the four rules. You are assigning a definition to accident, for the specific example of shooting resulting in injury or death, that is not consistent with the standard definition of accident.
Nope, you are assigning the term accident to something that is more appropriately termed negligence: "The failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care." Four simple rules and the shooting would never have happened. |
| 2013-02-14 12:53 PM in reply to: #4621712 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF The discharge of a firearm can certainly be unintentional........but to say there are no accidents is wrong. Of course there are. There is the possibility for accidental actions in everything. |
| 2013-02-14 12:57 PM in reply to: #4622438 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:52 PM Nope, you are assigning the term accident to something that is more appropriately termed negligence: "The failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care." No, I'm using accident as it is defined and used commonly. ETA: Also, I'm not suggesting that an accident cannot be negligent or reckless.
Edited by Goosedog 2013-02-14 12:59 PM |
| 2013-02-14 12:58 PM in reply to: #4622399 |
Member 465 | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Kido - 2013-02-14 12:33 PM Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 10:18 AM jgaither - 2013-02-14 11:30 AM Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 7:05 AM There has never been an accidental shooting. It would be very odd if this was the first. I'm pretty sure there have been accidental shootings. http://www.bigclassaction.com/lawsuit/remington-model-700-rifles-lawsuit-remington.php I think there's some cases of negligence that are so minimal as to warrant the "accident" title. Nope not even that. I think the basic gun safety rules been gone over ad nauseum. But if four basic gun safety rules are follow no one would ever be injured/killed by an unplanned discharge of a firearm. I own firearms, actually my 10 year old owns as many firearms as I do. I am a big fan of the 2A and I can comfortably say it is my opinion that anyone who thinks that any shooting death or injury could be the result of accident should not own or handle a firearm.
Been thinking of this recently and I remembered the case were Brandon Lee (son of Bruce Lee) was accidentally killed. They used guns on set for the Crow and two set's of ammunition. Dummy rounds that had the powder out so it looked like a real bullet (since it was) but could not fire. They used them in shots where the actor is loading a weapon and such. The also had blanks. Those have full charge of powder, but shoot a paper wad or cloth or some other no lethal "projectile". They use THOSE to get the sounds, effects (such as the slide of a semi auto to move), etc. Anyway, they shot a scene with the dummy rounds (no powder), someone pulled the trigger but the PRIMER was still in the round. It had JUST enough power to send the bullet barely into the barrel (but not out of the gun). Scene 2, take said gun NOW with .44 round in said chamber. Introduce blank round with FULL powder charge - pull the trigger? You get a .44 round leaving the gun, killing said actor. Was it careless? Did the stunt coordinator make a mistake and not check the barrel? Was it a freak occurrence? Sure. But I would also classify it as an accident.
ac·ci·dent/'aksid?nt/ Noun
"Was it careless? Did the stunt coordinator make a mistake and not check the barrel?...sure" ....I agree with that statement. But it was not an accident. neg·li·gence Noun b:failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances
Edited by Jackemy1 2013-02-14 1:00 PM |
| 2013-02-14 12:58 PM in reply to: #4621712 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF I actually agree that there are no accidents when handling a gun, based on those rules. Yet people get shot without the shooter actually intending to shoot them all the time. Which is why I am firmly for more gun control, to keep guns out of the hands of stupid people who can't follow four simple rules. |
| 2013-02-14 1:10 PM in reply to: #4622407 |
Member 465 | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Left Brain - 2013-02-14 12:39 PM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 12:23 PM Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 1:18 PM I am a big fan of the 2A and I can comfortably say it is my opinion that anyone who thinks that any shooting death or injury could be the result of accident should not own or handle a firearm. Similary, if anyone thinks any injury or death could be the result of a traffic accident, they should not drive a car.
I have a buddy who was in a pretty bad traffic accident. His pistol was under his seat, discharged in the accident, and shot him in the leg. So there. You're friend admitted that?....I hope he has come up with a better story to tell in the bars when he is asked about that limp. |
| 2013-02-14 1:12 PM in reply to: #4621948 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF BikerGrrrl - 2013-02-14 10:00 AM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 8:50 AM BikerGrrrl - 2013-02-14 9:42 AM "But speaking to reporters in Pretoria, another police spokeswoman, Brig. Denise Beukes said those reports had taken her by surprise. She also said that the police had responded previously to complaints of a “domestic nature” at the runner’s home but declined to give further details." I suppose it's POSSIBLE that this particular incident was an accident, but statistically speaking something was going to happen to her if there was domestic abuse occurring on a regular basis. He's in trouble. What if she was the abusive one? Could be. I am just basing my assumptions on statistics, so I think unlikely not. But could be. If she was the abusive one, why would he have to say he thought she was an intruder? Police have been called to your home for domestics, and you finally take revenge and shoot your partner. Seems like a reasonable story line for a self-defense claim ("She was coming after me again, and I felt scared for my life. That's why I shot her") |
| 2013-02-14 1:12 PM in reply to: #4622173 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF powerman - 2013-02-14 11:40 AM Bigfuzzydoug - 2013-02-14 9:34 AM wannabefaster - 2013-02-14 8:38 AM I am a gun owner. A very safe gun owner. But I have to be cognizant of the dangers that having a gun introduces in to my home. I think that statistics will bear out that you are orders of magnitude more likely to have an accidental shooting of yourself or a family member than you are to ever have to use a gun for self defense (I am not going to argue about whether or not this incident was accidental). If you have a gun around to "keep your family safe" you are probably deluding yourself. Your family would be safer without this type of weapon easily accessible in the house. I have made gun safety and education about guns something that I teach my kids. But they are kids and kids do stupid things (adults too). Before you all jump on me about how safe you are with your guns, I suspect just about everyone who has had an accidental shooting happen to them would have said the same thing. My guns are not for self defense. If I could figure out a way to safely have them available as such, I would. As it is, they are locked away. Unless I knew that someone was coming well in advance my guns would be useless to me for home protection. This is what I feel I have to do to keep my family safe from guns in my home. My gut wants the gun in my bedside table. My brain tells me this is not the safest thing to do. Flame suit on. Where's this so-called flaming you expect? x2 MY guns are locked away. It would take me at least a minute or two to wake up, get my wits, unlock the box, load and arm myself. I'll take that any day over an accesible weapon in the house especially with children! (Against the law in NC). Simple rule any instructor wil ltell you: Finger stays off the trigger until you're abosolutely ready to fire. And you always positively identify your target before putting your finger on the trigger. In this case, all it took was one simple shout out, "who's there?" And BTW - You're guns aren't "useless" for home protection. Unless of course you leave the door wide open. It would take any intruder a little bit of time and a lot a bit of noise to break in. For me, About 90 seconds to smash into the house (with the alarm going off), find their way upstairs and to our bedrooms. Might be enough time for me to protect my family... might.
Or... one night you forget to lock the door. Most thefts from cars are just thieves checking if the door is locked. We are human, we do forget. Another reason for the dogs. Your dogs can lock the doors if you forget? And I thought my dog was clever! |
| 2013-02-14 1:13 PM in reply to: #4622427 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF DanielG - 2013-02-14 10:46 AM Kido - 2013-02-14 1:42 PM So you're not reading posts and just throwing up whatever you think of. Answered above. There is no comparable listing for automotive safety so invalid parallel. Goosedog - 2013-02-14 10:34 AM DanielG - 2013-02-14 1:31 PM There is no such comparable list for an automobile. Invalid parallel. There isn't? How about traffic laws? Pretty sure for just about any traffic accident resulting in death or injury you can find a violation of a traffic law.
Hitting a patch of ice or tire blowing out? You always throw out insults in your discussions? I gave two examples where I thought you could have a traffic accident that's NOT a violation of the law. Edited by Kido 2013-02-14 1:14 PM |
| 2013-02-14 1:14 PM in reply to: #4622492 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF gearboy - 2013-02-14 2:12 PM If she was the abusive one, why would he have to say he thought she was an intruder? Police have been called to your home for domestics, and you finally take revenge and shoot your partner. Seems like a reasonable story line for a self-defense claim ("She was coming after me again, and I felt scared for my life. That's why I shot her") Because maybe what he said was the truth and your story line is not. *As the day has progressed, without making assumptions, it doesn't look so good for him.
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| 2013-02-14 1:14 PM in reply to: #4622489 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 1:10 PM Left Brain - 2013-02-14 12:39 PM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 12:23 PM Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 1:18 PM I am a big fan of the 2A and I can comfortably say it is my opinion that anyone who thinks that any shooting death or injury could be the result of accident should not own or handle a firearm. Similary, if anyone thinks any injury or death could be the result of a traffic accident, they should not drive a car.
I have a buddy who was in a pretty bad traffic accident. His pistol was under his seat, discharged in the accident, and shot him in the leg. So there. You're friend admitted that?....I hope he has come up with a better story to tell in the bars when he is asked about that limp. Well, he had a hard time hiding the hole in his leg.........so he fessed up. Still, I agree with you......if it were me, I would have said I got shot by an intruder while I was dialing the combination on my safe. |
| 2013-02-14 1:16 PM in reply to: #4622452 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF mr2tony - 2013-02-14 12:58 PM I actually agree that there are no accidents when handling a gun, based on those rules. Yet people get shot without the shooter actually intending to shoot them all the time. Which is why I am firmly for more gun control, to keep guns out of the hands of stupid people who can't follow four simple rules. Then the weapon was pointed at something they did not intend to shoot. Therefore, a violation of the 4 safety rules. These rules are virtually infallible. |
| 2013-02-14 1:16 PM in reply to: #4622501 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Goosedog - 2013-02-14 1:14 PM gearboy - 2013-02-14 2:12 PM If she was the abusive one, why would he have to say he thought she was an intruder? Police have been called to your home for domestics, and you finally take revenge and shoot your partner. Seems like a reasonable story line for a self-defense claim ("She was coming after me again, and I felt scared for my life. That's why I shot her") Because maybe what he said was the truth and your story line is not. *As the day has progressed, without making assumptions, it doesn't look so good for him.
Dude......do NOT devalue this thread by not making assumptions. |
| 2013-02-14 1:19 PM in reply to: #4622507 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Left Brain - 2013-02-14 2:16 PM Dude......do NOT devalue this thread by not making assumptions. Did I violate one of the four rules?
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| 2013-02-14 1:20 PM in reply to: #4622489 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Oscar Pistorius accidentally shoots and kills GF Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 1:10 PM Left Brain - 2013-02-14 12:39 PM Goosedog - 2013-02-14 12:23 PM Jackemy1 - 2013-02-14 1:18 PM I am a big fan of the 2A and I can comfortably say it is my opinion that anyone who thinks that any shooting death or injury could be the result of accident should not own or handle a firearm. Similary, if anyone thinks any injury or death could be the result of a traffic accident, they should not drive a car.
I have a buddy who was in a pretty bad traffic accident. His pistol was under his seat, discharged in the accident, and shot him in the leg. So there. You're friend admitted that?....I hope he has come up with a better story to tell in the bars when he is asked about that limp. The weapon was either off "safe" or pointed at something he did not intend to shoot (his leg) or both. If the car crash caused the weapon to change directions, caused the safety to be set to "fire" and caused the trigger to be pulled, then it would be an "accident". But it's more likely that he didn't have it on "safe" If the vehicle was on-fire and the rounds cooked-off, then it's not a shooting accident, it's rounds cooking-off.
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