'The' Gun Thread (Page 45)

Here is an article on crime rates and states that have strict gun control

http://news.yahoo.com/firearms-statistics-gun-control-advocates-don-t-want-194040384.html

Great question JMK and excellent answer Daniel. Thanks to you both.

Would you care to post those places?

One thing for sure is... you're right. You can't really correlate more/less guns = more/less crime. All I know is that the gun control crowd hammer away with doing this to stop gun crime/violence/whatever.... when it is more than obvious more laws does not accomplish the stated goal. Why do we continue to pass laws that do not accomplish what they were passed for?

The next thing that is hammered endlessly, is that more guns does = more deaths and crime..... yet that is not true, or at least as you said.... you can't draw a conclusion. So it means guns themselves are not responsible for the crime.... yet that is all we hear as the only solution to crime is to put more restrictions on guns.

+1

I'd wager this graph has more to do with the lowering incidence of violent crime than more guns.

It's a huge graph, so you've got to follow the link to the US Census.

Raw data in excel format

I agree about correlation not implying causation and I think that's what most people on here have argued.  However, the anti-gun crowd has lived in the causation without correlation world which is pretty silly.

Also, you say that more guns=less crime is "demonstrably false" and not "supported consistently by the facts".  Yet all the facts that I've seen on this topic show it being demonstrably true and consistently supported.  Yes, it doesn't mean causation but at the very least one can logically conclude that the opposite position that "more guns=more crime" is demonstrably false and "not supported consistently by the facts".  So, only one or the other is true because both sides can't be demonstrably false.

Why do you hate science? 

On that note:

"every argument the media and the left are currently making to push for new restrictions on our Second Amendment civil rights, are made up of anti-science nonsense."

Media's Anti-Gun Narrative Destroyed By Justice Dept. Report

So then, what you are saying is that law abiding... probably the majority of which are educated... are not the problem and gun control has no bearing. A educated society is a polite society, and we can have all the guns we want?

I visited Florida last August and I will tell you the heat and humidity made me want to shoot myself!

I completely agree that it doesn't hold true 100%.  We could give everyone in prison guns and I suspect crime would go up quite a bit.  lol (ok, dumb example)

When it comes to stuff like this we have to look at a national, or at the least a state level and we can certainly state for fact that gun ownership has gone up a lot, and gun crimes have gone down a lot.  Those are both facts, and I'm not implying causation.

Now, taking the opposite point of view that more guns equals more crime.  In order for that to be true I feel it would be impossible for violent crimes to drop almost 50% while adding an additional ~150M guns to the market since 1993.  Yes, you still have the causation argument but from a statistical standpoint I'm going to call it impossible.

I know you're not arguing that more guns equals more crime, but the proponents of the gun legislation are, so that's why I mention it.

Around here, sales of Diet Coke have gone through the roof along with the obesity rate. Does this imply that Diet Coke causes obesity?

You are trying to tie together to related items, but have no way to prove that one causes the other which invalidates the original argument.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe any new Federal gun legislation has passed since the 1994 AWB, so I guess I'd say that the new regulations haven't had any effect. 

I know there have been various laws here and there from state to state, but honestly I think most of them have been to relax gun regulations such as allowing CCW.  I'm sure some states/cities have passed tougher gun laws (talking prior to 2013) but they would be mostly in the Blue states.

There's no question the crime rate going down is a lot more complex than just guns in the population, and I absolutely agree that more guns is not the only "reason" crime rate is down.  I personally believe it's a contributing factor, but there's no way to prove it so it really doesn't matter.

hah, I knew it.  Those dam pirates.

I like to give the following global warming question to my "enlightened" friends who trust in science so much.

If CO2 increased by 50% the last 20 years and the global temperatures decreased by almost 50%.  Would you still say that CO2 is the cause of global warming?

So why do you believe that a ~50% increase in guns in the US over the past 20 years results in increased violent crime, even though violent crimes have gone down almost 50% over that same period?

hmm

Answer:  Laws like D.C. Code sections 7-2501.01(12); 7-2502.011(a); and 7-2502.02(a)(4) or as some may know them as the specific laws that were PASSED and then challenged all the way to the U.S. Supreme COurt in the Heller case.

I'm going to agree with you here. Heller was the first real 2A test in a very long time, and it was handed down exactly like I read it. It is an individual right.... EVEN if you say it is an individual right for a militia... well you can't have the militia without armed members. And locking all the guns up in an armory does not accomplish what the 2A intended.

The second land mark case was McDonald, which said it applies to the states... DUH.

The first AWB was pretty funny. I heard the b****ing and moaning for 10 years... but the thing was nothing but swiss cheese, it was useless. And at the same time, semi-auto rifles popularity rose sharply. When it expired, it was like Christmas. Behind the scenes, states have been rolling back many laws and relaxing carry requirements.

So ya, the last 20 years, besides the AWB, has been very good for gun rights... but just so we are clear, that's the way it SHOULD be. The 2A itself should be all I need to carry when ever and where ever I want.

Why gun people complain so much is because it is no secret what the objective is of gun control advocates... not you... the gun control lobby. The DC law is what they want nation wide. And then they will want more until there are no guns. So even though gun rights may be in a sort of a hay day, it isn't compared to "just" the 2A. And when the other side has indeed declared war on gun rights... then indeed we are in fight for them... and we do. And judging from the last 200+ years... gun rights advocates are tired of giving inches.